llanago
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2004
Posts: 1,714
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Post by llanago on Nov 6, 2004 1:16:48 GMT -5
with my grinding efforts! I don't know if I'm holding the rock wrong, if I need to dress my wheel, if it's the cut of the rock or what but they look like crap.
I dress my wheel quite often, try to never put a sharp point to it, have plenty of water. I don't have a problem grinding the edges straight or grinding a square or weird shaped rock into an oval or round shape, but I am really having a problem with the bevel. Doesn't seem to matter where I hold the rock or how much I go back and forth across the wheel, I end up with a wide bevel on one side and a narrow bevel on the other. The more I try to fix it the worse it looks. I'm not having fun with this because I can't figure out how to do the bevel!
Any ideas or suggestions on how to get the bevel right?
llana
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Post by rockyraccoon on Nov 6, 2004 1:50:45 GMT -5
llana this guy draws a line with marker to help him with the bevel - i have no method to my madness and am most often surprised at the end with what i have created - like started with a triangle and ended with an oval cause something wasn't working right lol. i'm not even fully sure what a bevel is - do you have to have one? www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/oplc_cab.htmlkim
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Post by stoner on Nov 6, 2004 1:55:30 GMT -5
Hi llana. Do you have a rest in front of your wheel? Like on a regular grinder, there is a flat metal plate that sits in front of the wheel, and you rest your chisel or whatever your grinding on so it keeps a constant angle on what your grinding. If you don't, check out Harbor Freight's online cat. and look at their grinders so you can see what they look like and maybe fashion one to work on your grinder. Even a 2x4 on end works.
Ed
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llanago
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2004
Posts: 1,714
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Post by llanago on Nov 6, 2004 2:12:28 GMT -5
Kim, I guess ya' don't have to have a bevel but I want one! And I want it to be the same width all the way around the stone! I can't even get one the same size on one edge! Ed, I brace my arms on the edge of the grinder. that's not working too well, apparently , so I might have to make me a rest out of 2X4's. I gotta figure out something. You can't imagine how many really nice slabs I have screwed up! Fortunately most are big enough that I can trim off the edges and try again. llana
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Post by stoner on Nov 6, 2004 2:29:32 GMT -5
I know exactly how you feel llana. Ya just keep going round and round, until there's nothing left. It's alot easier with a rest, cuz then the only variable is how hard you press, and that's alot easier to get the hang of. I'm making a wooden Dump truck for my grandsons birthday and I did the same thing on the hood with a belt sander. I knew I should have left it alone, but no, I had to "slightly" round the edges. Well, it now has very rounded edges.
Ed
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llanago
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2004
Posts: 1,714
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Post by llanago on Nov 6, 2004 2:47:03 GMT -5
Oh man, those belt sanders can really change the shape of things if you're not carefull! I can't remember what I was working on a few years back, but I do remember I took the belt sander after it and drastically altered whatever it was! ;D Since then I have pretty much stuck with my palm, mouse or 3-D sander. They are alot slower than the belt sander,but at least with them I don't sand the entire project into dust! I got to thinking that one reason I may be having such a problem with the bevels is because my hands are so cold! I have access to hot water, but the hot and cold faucets are separate, so I have been using cold. the hot is too hot to use by itself. Need to go to the hardware store and get whatever I'll need to mix the two and get warm water. Might also help if I used a dop instead of just holding the stone. When first got the grinder, I didn't have any problem at all. About a week after I got it all set up, I screwed up my right hand and couldn't grind for over a month. The hand is still not working quite like it should, so that might also be why I am having such a hard time. A dop would probably help. And warm water! Well water in the winter is REALLY cold! llana
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Post by sandsman1 on Nov 6, 2004 2:57:00 GMT -5
llana i dont use a rest or a dop when i get a uneven bevel its usually cause i leaned into it harder on one side then the other so how i fix it is press alittle on one side but not the side that looks good till i even it up then redo the edge again
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Post by sandsman1 on Nov 6, 2004 2:58:46 GMT -5
and another thing to try fill a five gallon bucket and use that for your drip thats what i use and its allways at room temp from sittin in the bucket
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Post by connrock on Nov 6, 2004 9:06:55 GMT -5
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Post by rockyraccoon on Nov 6, 2004 9:19:35 GMT -5
thanks for thsoe tom - great tutorials!
kim
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llanago
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2004
Posts: 1,714
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Post by llanago on Nov 6, 2004 10:13:38 GMT -5
Yeah Tom, thanks! Have always held the stone I am trying to bevel horizontal to the wheel ' cause that what it says in Sinkankas' book "Gem Cutting, A Lapidary's Manual", but I'll sure turn the next one vertical to the wheel and try it that way. Sands, I have a hot water faucet right behind the grinder - my grinding closet is a converted washer/dryer closet - just need to get to the hardware store and get what I need to mix the hot and cold water. Simple to do, I just keep forgetting to get what I need when I am at the hardware store! Was there yesterday afternoon! Guess this calls for a special trip so I can remember what I am going for! And, I can't even be sure that will work! I really hate this CRS disease! llana
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Post by krazydiamond on Nov 6, 2004 13:41:49 GMT -5
great links, Tom and Kim.......great free instructions with diagrams and photos for the textually challenged (like me). i'm still at the playing around stage with my grinder, must get a dop thing going and get more serious.
KD
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Post by connrock on Nov 6, 2004 17:52:09 GMT -5
Hi "cabbers" I know there's a better online instructional proceedure out there in cyber space but I can't find the darn thing. Llana, What works for one doesn't always work for another. Remember when you tumbled your first batch??You stuck to the written instructions like glue and used "their" recipe.Now I bet you don't use "their" recipe as close and probably altered it a bit. The same goes with just about anything you attempt to do.You have to have a starting point and then go off on your own. Did Sinkankas have the same health problems that you have?? Prolly not!! Do what's right for you and feels natural and I bet you'll surprise yourself!! Tom
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Post by docone31 on Nov 6, 2004 19:16:01 GMT -5
LLana, you have to use a dop for a calibrated cabachon. Freehand can be done on cabochets but cabachons need a dop. Also, grind from the border to the crown. Work from the widest point on the stone, to the opposite widest point, then go from the middle of the stone, 90 degrees from the first grind. Grinding to specifications recquires making little controlled bites, opposite from each other. It also helps to have an higher table than usual for working on jewelery, and lapidary. I have found more control with my elbows resting at shoulder height and looking directly at the grind point on the stones. I have found I can make more precise smaller bites. Sandsman's cabochets look like he uses a rest. This is ok for linear edging. For round, or oval, the dop becomes the locus. Go to an hardware store, get some 3/8" wood dowels. Go to a craft store and get some sealing wax. Bingo. I heat my stones on warm on the stove, and heat the sealing wax in an empty tunafish can on warm. Watch the wax it can over heat. Put the dop in the can of wax, and make a wax end. I put the dop in and pull it out untill I have a sticky ball. Transfer the dop to the bottom of the stone on warm. Smooth the ball untill it spreads to the stone without an hollow spot on the dop and ball combination. That is how it is done. To release the dop, put it into the freezer for about five minutes and the stone will pop off without leaving behind any wax. A sprinkling of talcum powder can stiffen up the dop wax. Little controlled bites on the stone going from the border to the crown, gives the best reasonable non chipping stroke. I make my dops 6" and square the end on the grinding wheel. Let me know how it works.
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llanago
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2004
Posts: 1,714
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Post by llanago on Nov 6, 2004 20:39:14 GMT -5
Did Sinkankas have the same health problems that you have??
By my health problems I assume you mean my messed up hand (which is much better but not completely back to normal), my insanity and my sometimes beserk hormones! ;D
Doc, thanks for the tutorial. I am not quite ready to try a cab - heck, Im having a hard enough time getting a bevel going straight across the stone! When I finally get that right, it will be cab time. I had a dop pot on my wish list but am taking it off now. I was wondering while I was looking at them why one could not use one of those little electric scent pots you can get for about $3.00 at Family Dollar. Actually, I have an aluminum camping coffee pot with candle wax in it I figured I'd try before spending $40 for a dop pot! Will candle wax work?
llana
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Post by krazydiamond on Nov 6, 2004 20:53:55 GMT -5
hey, man, the tuna can works for me..........!! do you order the real Dop wax from lapidary supply or do others work?
that was very informative, Doc!! thank you! you need to do a video thingie. you too Tom!
i wish i could spend a day with someone that knows what they are doing!!! on the other hand, i guess we all learn our own technique, yes? torturous as it may be........
it's all fun or we wouldn't be doing it. KD
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Post by docone31 on Nov 6, 2004 20:54:10 GMT -5
LLana, the low temperatures and low frequency of changing dops, you could easily use the candle coffee pot. I think I am beginning to see what the situation you describe equates to. Number one, practice makes perfect. That sound hollow, and callous but it is not meant to be so. After a time you will develop an hand with the stones. Second, to draw a line, you need reference points. That is why a lot of us cabbers mark with the grinder after drawing the border, four cuts on the stone. We then line up quarter gradients to equalize the cab cuts. A lot of time, I have found using a guage, rest, I got chatter from the wheel which translated into more fractures than normal grinding. I reccomend using lexan sheet, or plexiglas as a buffer to a guage when grinding stones. I also, grind off caliber cabachons. I believe, when I first cut one side, I then mentally compensate with the other and the first side is slightly off. On one of the settings I do, I use prong settings and a very slight off center or more oval than the other side really shows up in a prong setting. There are a lot of cheater tricks but sometimes nothing can be done but to recut the stone. You are not alone. That is why not everybody does this with repitition. After a while, you will enter the can do no wrong phase in cutting. It does come. Takes a few cuts though.
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Post by docone31 on Nov 6, 2004 21:04:55 GMT -5
Since I am still on line, the tuna can can do a variety of things. Can, can. I like that! At any rate. I do use commercial dop wax. I get mine from Indian Jewelers Supply. I get the brown dop wax. It comes in a 1 lb bag and lasts forever. Smells pretty neat heated. A tuna can can be used in steam casting! I use a 1" wood dowel, cut six inches with a sheet rock screw going through the bottom of the tuna can and into the dowel. I place paper towels in the bottom of the can, dampen, and use it in casting. I use a soup can for my investment. After burning out the wax, I place a button of silver or gold in the flask hole. I then heat this with my faithful propane torch. Once it gets that roiling silver look, I flux with borax, love that stuff, and take the tuna can with the handle and paper towels and put it on top of the melted silver. The resulting steam and pressure, yes, I do push down on the can, forces the silver into the mold. I get as good a result with this technique as with my broken arm caster. The damp paper towels help seal against the soup can and the damp paper towels touch the melt button making steam. I hold it down for up to a minute, and then drop the investment/soup can into a five gallon bucket. Not a plastic one, metal. The investment shatters away from the metal, the can falls off and I have a casting. I use a large button so the contracting silver does not pull the metal from the mold. Folks love watching the steam, sound, the steam and boiling water in the bucket, the hissing of the propane torch, and hot water splashing out of the bucket. They love to see me pull the casting from the bucket, trim it, polish it, set the stone, and sell it to them. It is part of the show. With the tuna can, the plastic lining will dissolve with the heating of the wax. It has seemed to have caused no difficulties with either grinding, faceting, or the grip of the wax. Have fun.
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Post by krazydiamond on Nov 6, 2004 21:37:48 GMT -5
i swear i will come down just to see that!
lol, KD
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Post by BearCreekLapidary on Nov 6, 2004 23:41:36 GMT -5
Hey Llana,
Do you have a catch basin under your grinding wheel? If so, I may be able to help with your cold hands.
I use a Diamond Pacific Genie, which has a catch basin under the wheels. There are brass gysers that spray water onto the wheel and keep it cool during the grinding/sanding process.
In the winter months I have a hard time keeping my stones on the dop stick, because the phase change of the water makes it cold and causes the stones to very easily pop off of the dop sticks. Any time a substance goes through a phase change there is a dramatic temperature difference. Water being sprayed up on the rotating wheel partially evaporates which causes the water to become cold.
I use two heating pads ... one under each water baisn. Put the heating pad on high and the heated water makes all the difference in the world. Not only does it feel better on your hands ... but more importantly ... it keeps the stones on the dop sticks much better.
This may or may not be of much use ... but, I though I would mention it anyway!
Enjoy,
John
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