Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2013 16:52:13 GMT -5
Resurrecting an old thread. If you don't like thread necromancy, please forgive me. I am pondering this stuff in my feeble little head.
Woody, does the 'catalyst' need to penetrate into the porousoty of the stone to effectively cause the desired reaction?
Any links to the water glass to glass chemistry are appreciaed. I have found precious few.
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victor1941
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2011
Posts: 1,979
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Post by victor1941 on Feb 20, 2013 21:57:55 GMT -5
I found that some pharmacies in Austin, Texas will order sodium silicate for you even when they don't stock it. Walmart said they would order it when I checked a couple of years ago.
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Post by orrum on Feb 20, 2013 22:16:23 GMT -5
Get water glass at Walmart pharmacy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2013 22:34:52 GMT -5
Water glass is available in 37-40% solution easily. About $30 a gallon on ebay. It seems the biggest seller is in Sacramento.
It's the chemistry to go from sol --> gel --> solid that I am seeking knowledge about. I wanna see about making my own custom colored agates.
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Post by johnjsgems on Feb 20, 2013 23:36:06 GMT -5
I'm no help at all but the old lapidary books said you could by the Water Glass at the drug store. Apparently it was much more common back then. Most people are using CA glue or some form of epoxy.
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Post by jakesrocks on Feb 20, 2013 23:47:08 GMT -5
Water Glass used to be quite common. It was used for everything from sealing cracked engine blocks to sealing fresh farm eggs for long term storage. Besides Sodium Silicate and Water Glass, it has also been sold as Eising Glass and Egg Seal. I think one of the old timey catalogs that sells to the Amish and survivalists still lists it.
You don't need a catalyst for Water Glass. Heat helps, but as it dries, it hardens.
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Post by jakesrocks on Feb 21, 2013 0:30:20 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 13:35:55 GMT -5
yes, of course it is easy to find. My query is about the chemistry and the catalysis of this material.
I want to try my hand at homemade agates, in colors of my choosing.
FWIW the reason it is common is indrusty and also it is the stuff Obama used to destroy the engines of cash for clunkers cars.
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Post by jakesrocks on Feb 21, 2013 13:56:30 GMT -5
If you're planning on manufacturing agates, I'd use something beside sodium silicate. It's not all that hard when dried, and to a certain extent will start melting in water. Just grinding and sanding on wet wheels would probably cause serious undercutting. The stuff will work for specimen rocks, but I wouldn't advise it for lapidary use.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 19:06:36 GMT -5
Don;
Sodium silicate is transformed to silicon dioxide with the application of an acid. I believe this is called "sol-gel" and is a huge series of methods that make some rather durable materials. I have learned this is the path to the porcelain used to make tiles. Using this path allows the mfg a lot of flexibility in his products. It also allows for a continuous process. No batches means faster mfg.
From my reading this chemistry is not too distant from the process that made agates in nature.
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Post by stoner on Feb 23, 2013 21:58:41 GMT -5
Chris, if your still around, I think the answer you want is simply heat the stone first-before you use anything on it. By heating the stone, you open the pores, allowing the silicate to enter the stone.
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mdr
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2013
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Post by mdr on Nov 14, 2013 20:09:20 GMT -5
I know that this hasn't been a topic for a long while but itseems that there is a need to fill in some gaps for those curious users who want to use this method.. After researching on the net a bit, it seems there are a couple of methods that use sodium silicate. If you want to use the citric acid method , cut and final sand the material to be treated, it must be free of contaminants of all types so after a complete cleaning and a long fresh water rinse, the material needs to be totally drie. Oven dry at 200F for several hours at least. When cool immerse the stone in a small ceramic/ glass ovenproof dish and cover the stones with the sodium silicate solution and return to the oven a 180F for several hours. Use rubber gloves to remove the stones from the solution when it has safely cooled and drain without further rinsing on clean paper towels in the sink. pour off the solution from the ceramic dish (reserve ??) and rinse out the dish. Make your citric acid solution at 1 Tablespoon to 1 gallon of water and cover the stones completely. Let stand 48 hr. and rinse the stone. Allow to stones to dry completely before your final polish... This method turns to sodium silicate to amorphous quartz by polymerization of the sodium silicate. The second method is the same up to the (cover with citric acid solution ) but requires a 12 volt DC power supply, bag the stones in aluminum foil and attach the negative wire to the bag and place into the solution to cover, place a galvanized nail attached to the positive wire into the citric acid solution and turn the electricity on. Leave the power on for 12-20 mins... This causes the sodium silicate to convert to quartz too, but rapidly, simply finish your stones as directed above.
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Post by vegasjames on Nov 15, 2013 3:31:56 GMT -5
Where is a good place to get this. I've checked around and no one seems to know what it is .Is there a common name for water glass? snuffy Sodium silicate. An easy place to obtain it is from ceramic supply shops. Or you can make your own by dissolving glass in molten sodium hydroxide (lye).
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Post by vegasjames on Nov 15, 2013 3:41:28 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply Don and umm..Don, hehe. What I'm most interested is hearing from Woodyrock again, so that he can expand in more refined detail about his suggestion to add the catalyst as a topical solution. I am interested in the specific procedure for doing so, and also to combine bits and pieces from all the different procedures into one "known good" procedure that has been tried and proven effective. All of the experiments that I have tried thus far to treat porous material have "failed" in my opinion for one reason and one reason only, the waterglass did NOT penetrate the material into the pores, but rather created a layer of sodium silicate (or potassium silicate)on the surface, and when it is polished off, down to the surface of the gemstone material, the coating of sodium silicate is gone, and the pores that existed previously still exist, and were not filled with the silicate as was intended on happening via the treatment. Why not? That's my question! Could the reason simply be because I did not properly pre-treat the material by soaking in TSP over night? Or is this one of those situations where a vacuum system is required to really SUCK the silicate into the pores of the material, so that when the topical catalyst is applied, the silicate then polymerizes INSIDE the porous material, instead of just leaving a coating on top of it? It's obvious that this treatment works, I would just like to know EXACTLY how to get the silicate INSIDE the pores, and as a hard clear polishable material that will give an otherwise pitted surface of a porous stone a nice shiny gem like finish. Any firther suggestions Woodyrock?? Thanks! Chris Have you tried pulling a vacuum on the stone in the solution? This would pull out any air in tiny pockets within the stone that could be preventing the liquid from entering deeper in to the stone.
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Post by vegasjames on Nov 15, 2013 3:44:06 GMT -5
Lamp black is a pigment often used in paints. I believe it is powdered carbon, but I may be wrong. Chuck Yes, it is a very fine carbon powder.
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Post by Rockoonz on Nov 15, 2013 17:44:34 GMT -5
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Post by Woodyrock on Nov 24, 2013 2:28:59 GMT -5
Now, since I got the new version of the forum to function for me, I will be running a few more tests on using either, or both sodium/potassium silicate and catalyzing to make a more permanent filler. sealer. I have been very busy with putting an addition on the house this year as well as recovering from both shoulder surgery, and kidney stones. This getting old crap sucks. All that said, I now have a small vacuum pump AKA brake bleeder which I have set up to pull the silicate into the cracks, and voids then catalyzing. I will keep everybody up to date on this. Woody
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1nickthegreek
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Post by 1nickthegreek on Jul 13, 2014 4:21:46 GMT -5
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Post by MrP on Jul 13, 2014 4:47:04 GMT -5
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snuffy
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Post by snuffy on Jul 13, 2014 13:22:15 GMT -5
I found it at Lehman's and got a gallon a couple years ago.
snuffy
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