grizman
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since July 2011
Posts: 878
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Post by grizman on Sept 17, 2013 22:21:03 GMT -5
OK, I know that for most all harder stones, oil coolant is better than water + additives. I also know that it will let the blade last longer. But..and here's the catch. Although the "boss" has sort of accepted the fact that I will be cutting rocks in the garage...with the cars in the driveway, she will put an immediate stop to my using the saw in the garage IF I make a mess with the oil and or oil mist. I am not sure moving outside will be a better option either. Our back yard is all done in fancy tile pavers. If I get oil on them, either drips or mist, I will also be looking for a new place to live...on my own! The front driveway is not any better either. Being in a neat & clean sensitive community, the mess on the driveway would not be acceptable with the neighbors OR my wife. To be honest, any mess anywhere, is not going to be OK with me either!
So here is the bottom line. I am just weeks away from ordering my first lapidary saw. I have pretty much decided on the Barranca BC-10 Slab & Trim saw. They too recommend oil as their first choice, but if a person is willing to drain the tank and dry the parts after each use, water with an additive can be used.
OK, I need your experiences and expertise to guide me from here. Will I be getting myself into irreversible trouble with the wife and neighbors with my using oil as a lubricant with my new-to-be saw? Will I be making a major mistake by even considering water + additive for use in the saw? Can I get away with the use of oil in the garage without worrying about an oily mess...and a date in divorce court?
HELP! I really want to be able to cut my rocks in the garage, but I don't know if I need to use the water + additive OR can I use oil without making a mess? I promise not to hold any of you accountable if I do end up in divorce court!
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Sept 17, 2013 22:37:21 GMT -5
Maybe you will get lucky like me and slowly introduce her to this hobby and next thing you know she's a mess also. Wishful thinking but it can happen.
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since January 2012
Posts: 982
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Post by sheltie on Sept 18, 2013 6:40:19 GMT -5
My 16" saw is in the garage and the area around it CAN get oily if I don't pay attention to what I'm doing. I don't have an open system like the BD can be so there is no problem with mist or spray (we're looking into possibly getting the same saw). If you are careful and keep the place clean you shouldn't have too much of a problem. Cleaning out the saw is generally the messiest part but since you will only use about 1/2 gallon of oil it shouldn't be too bad. My guess is that your saw will be more efficient, last longer and you will be happier with the results of using oil vice water + additives. A second consideration is that if your wife is that fussy, either convert her to lapidary or trade her in. You can always find good spouses; not necessarily true for finding good rocks!
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marinedad
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since December 2010
Posts: 813
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Post by marinedad on Sept 18, 2013 7:08:43 GMT -5
I had my 14" saw in the basement, cut a few slabs daily, use mineral oil, no problem or mess unless I accidentally bumped the switch to on with the hood up, operator error. I also have the 16" saw in the garage, mineral oil, 2 feet from my wifes car, only cut when car was out of garage, no issues at all. I also occasionally put in a pinch of nice smelling cedar oil or citronella to avoid any smell issues. no oily issues for me, but i'm not slicing all day long.
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webminer
off to a rocking start
I never licked a rock I did not like!!!
Member since September 2013
Posts: 9
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Post by webminer on Sept 18, 2013 7:51:43 GMT -5
I would use Mineral Oil if any way possible. I also keep a container of undiluted "Totally Awesome" cleaner from Dollar General. 3 bucks for half a gallon. Drop the rocks in, a short soak, a rinse, and the stone is clean of any residue.
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Sept 18, 2013 8:00:28 GMT -5
I think we need to discuss 2 other topics. #1 There is going to be some mess regardless. And if you aren't even comfortable with it that could be a problem. If you don't mind cleaning up after yourself then ok. You can keep it clean you just have to pay attention to what you're doing. Have a place ready to put wet slabs, towels to wipe off your hands, etc. #2. I think we need to talk about equipment selection. For almost the same price you could get the 'fully' enclosed Lortone LS12 and not worry about misting. Not only that it's a far better choice for slabbing and will hold bigger rocks. This is just what I would personally, then I would look for a used trim saw on the cheap and just run it on water with additive and not worry about because I don't have much money in it. The Barranca is nice but those type hoods will allow mist out and for the amount of money you are spending I think you need to reconsider what you are going to buy. There may be better buys out there but you get the idea: www.kingsleynorth.com/skshop/product.php?id=46605&catID=842*Notice the 'keeps oil mist contained' in the product description. Lastly some people seem to think that lapidary machines are like brick saws, super loud and noisy, dust everywhere etc. I recently had a couple over and took them to the back office area in my barn to show them an operating saw and the guy said "You do it right here!!" I nearly fell over laughing. They were in total shock as to how quiet and clean it actually was.
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 18, 2013 8:55:29 GMT -5
I agree with Rob. There will be some mess, and you need to consider if perhaps you should not buy slabs instead of getting into slabbing. Even with water plus additives in my old Beacon Starr 10" slab/trim autofeed w/ plastic hood (whew), there was misting on the table top and adjacent floor. When I used oil, there was an oil sheen. When I used water, it evaporated and left a chalky residue - very hard to mop up too. Eventually you will turn the saw on w/o the hood, or you will be draining it and spill stuff. It will happen. The cut slabs need to be put in a bucket or cat litter. This may spill at some point. The potential to track dust into the house is large. You may not want family pets walking on surfaces next to the slab saw. Lots of stuff. Overall, you can clean up better from water than oil, but you have to drain the thing more often so the "accident" is going to happen sooner. You also should not dump the water into drains w/o letting the sediment settle 1st, so you may have buckets standing around, or you may have to locate an acceptable dump spot under a bush outside. The belt on the saw gets dirty over time and can sometimes throw a line of greasy dirt in a vertical stripe on the wall behind the saw. You can put up guards or shields. The larger point being that there is some mess. Same for wood work, same for turkey frying, same for a lot of things you could do in the garage. It can be kept clean with vigilance. BikerRandy does an excellent job of keeping his garage clean. As for the LS12, it is lightweight for a 12" saw, but an excellent choice if you use it like a 10" saw. Also the LS12 is OIL ONLY. You can get it for $1195 at therockshed ( www.therockshed.com/equipment12.html ) - cheapest price anywhere. Given your concerns, I am not sure you should use oil. Eventually a bucket spills (you have to strain it periodically). The side openings (for hands) on the 10" saw plastic hoods can be plugged. There may be an open strip along one side for the autofeed parts and you can't plug this. If you need to trim slabs, and will be working with the hand-holes unplugged, it might be good to have a 6x8 rubber mat under the saw table. I would consider using a 70/30 water/pink-RV-fluid mix because this can be left in the saw and not drained. Get a good blade like 303c. The Salem club had several trim saws where the pink water stayed in the saw until it was too brown. It was occasionally topped off, but not drained each day.
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Post by jakesrocks on Sept 18, 2013 10:22:02 GMT -5
I have the same problem. My saw is stored in the garage, but has to be rolled out on the driveway to cut. Large bags of oil dry are cheap at Tractor Supply. I just put a good layer of oil dry all around and under my saw when I cut. After cutting, a couple minutes with the shop vac pics up all of the oil dry.
By cutting on the driveway, you will almost always draw an audience. Usually neighborhood kids. You may be able to make future rockhounds out of them, and possibly draw one or both parents into the hobby as well. Doesn't hurt to have a few neighbors interested.
If smell is a problem, Wally World has cheap scented baby oil in quart bottles. Baby oil is highly refined mineral oil, and smells good. Just top up your saw with baby oil, It won't hurt your saw or blade.
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grizman
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since July 2011
Posts: 878
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Post by grizman on Sept 18, 2013 10:23:29 GMT -5
Thanks to all of you for the valuable advise re: saw selection as well as water VS oil coolant.
I should have also mentioned my intended use of a saw. I am not into cabbing. I only want to tumble and vibe different rocks. My reason for a slab/trim saw is to cut some smaller slabs to polish, knowing that many rocks hold their real beauty within. I also want to then be able to "shape" or trim the edges of these small slabs. I doubt that I would be cutting anything much beyond a 3" rock for my tumble polishing purposes. Honestly, I don't know what I really want or NEED. What I do know for sure is that I sure do enjoy my tumbling/vibe rock polishing. I also know that there are lots of "hidden" beauty inside of some of the rocks I have collected. I know that if I were younger, over time I would want and HAVE lots of lapidary equipment, maybe even cabbing, etc., but my years to play in this hobby are simply limited. If I can get by cutting in our garage without making a mess that I can't get cleaned up, then I will be happy...and so will my wife!
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 18, 2013 11:14:21 GMT -5
Well what you spend on a new saw will take a long time to pay for itself vs just buying slabs and trimming with a tile saw. IF you have been tumbling, you already know about sludge and cleanup.
The best argument for a 10" slab/trim saw is that you want to do it. You could just cut up slabs to get small slabs to tumble. There is an extra satisfaction however in slabbing.
I think if you used a water/RV coolant, you can work w/o too much mess.
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webminer
off to a rocking start
I never licked a rock I did not like!!!
Member since September 2013
Posts: 9
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Post by webminer on Sept 18, 2013 11:26:14 GMT -5
Now that I know what you plan on doing, I have a suggestion. Go to your local Lowe's and check out one of the 7" wet tile saws. May suit your needs much better and a whole lot cheaper.
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Sept 18, 2013 13:31:52 GMT -5
Max cut on a 7" tile saw is about 1 1/2" - 2", unless you roll the stone. Might be a good option, though.
They are very loud and messy, but usually not a problem if you can do it outside and hose things down afterwards. Stand behind the saw and pull the rock toward you unless you want to take a shower in rock snot.
Chuck
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Post by johnjsgems on Sept 18, 2013 13:51:02 GMT -5
This is maybe good timing. I just returned from doing the Denver show with Barranca Diamond. While there we demonstrated the BD10 saw. We stumbled on to a friend there that is making a new water soluble coolant that was touted as being the best ever. At $50 per quart I was a little skeptical but bought a bottle anyway. At 2 ozs. per gallon we filled the saw and gave it a try. It worked better than any water based coolant I've ever used. No foaming, no misting, no mess. No need to drain after use. We had to add water on the warmest days due to evaporation loss but added no more coolant. No sign of rust on the blade after 9 days. We put all the slabs we cut on the table to dry. After drying there was a white powdery residue that easily wiped off without washing. I was impressed enough to buy a supply to sell on my web site. Now all I need is the energy to unload the van, take pictures and add the product to the site. By the way, the BD10 worked very well as well. The only negative I see is the limited cutting height while using the vise. The vise is so thick the cutting height is reduced to about 2 1/2". Without the vise you could cut 3". Other than that the saw is all aluminum, has a large table. has a hinged top for easy cleaning and made in the USA. The removeable hood does a pretty good job of containing the mess although the coolant maker advised over filling a little which caused a little leakage around the hood. I would fill properly instead myself. Excess coolant sprayed around the saw doesn't help the cutting at all.
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 18, 2013 14:01:03 GMT -5
Unless you have an enormous vibe, you can't put in big slabs, so the 2" cut depth becomes less of a problem. But unless put tub (or other shield arrangement) tiles saws are very wet/messy. If working outside is nto an option, a good setup would be needed for the garage. Even though I have slab, trim, and band saws, I still use the tiles saw sometimes because it is fast and tough. I put min in a washtub, use a bucket as a sediment trap, and use a plexiglass shield. I even bring it inside in winter and use it in the guest bath. I do use water in my trim saw and band saw, and I jsut drain after and wipe up. Bu there is a rock dust accumulating on the concrete floor
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Post by Jugglerguy on Sept 18, 2013 14:18:49 GMT -5
I've been debating the same thing about oil vs water. I bought a used 10 inch saw, which I'm still trying to get working properly. I opted for water to avoid the oil mess, but I'm wondering if I'd be better off with oil.
I just wanted to mention that in my experiment with leaving water/rv antifreeze in overnight, I found that it does not inhibit rust. I was using a brand new blade and it had plenty of rust on it the next day. I've read that adding borax to the mixture prevents rust, but I haven't tried it. My water is pretty sludgy after using the saw, so I don't think it's a bad idea to clean it out anyway.
My saw does not have a cover and the floor around it was covered in white residue after I used it.
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Post by Bluesky78987 on Sept 18, 2013 15:55:10 GMT -5
I've got the BD10 you're considering. I use Gem Lube from Kingsley North (sold in concentrate, you mix with water). Been using it for a year or so now, and I never EVER EVER clean out the saw (except when there is too much crud in the bottom). No rust ever on anything. Blades seem to last fine (although I can't compare to whether they would stay "sharper" in oil since I've only ever used the Gem Lube). I'd give a thumbs up to using that coolent if you wanted. As far as mess, if you use the saw as a trim saw though, with the top off, there's a fair amount of spray. I get the front of my apron pretty messy when hand cutting. However, you could totally keep your floor clean by putting a tarp under your table that you fold up, and maybe situate the saw so that there is something tall between it and the automobiles (etc.). I get the most floor drips of rock snot when I take my cut rock, dip it in bucket of water on the floor, carry it over to the door to look at it in direct sun, and it drips. Plain water with rock snot WILL stain concrete. Ask me how I know.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 17:03:53 GMT -5
looks like Gem Lube is a solution of soaps, chloramines and borax. I wonder is a simple alkali soap and borax might do the same job.
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Post by Bluesky78987 on Sept 18, 2013 18:12:18 GMT -5
It's actually interesting stuff Scott. It starts off kind of a peachy pink color. By the end of a day of cutting though, my bucket of "slab rinse" water has turned blue. Something in the rocks is causing copper to precipitate out of somewhere. Even when I don't cut Chrysocolla. I always kind of wonder why, but chemistry isn't my subject.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 18:33:16 GMT -5
the website says it contains "chlorine, amines and boron"
Chlorine by itself is an oxidizer and not a good idea in a saw. amines by themselves are also not a really good idea. So, I extrapolated that to say chloramines (kills bacteria) and borax because borax also is a rust inhibitor. I assumed there was soap as a lubricant. Perhaps an alkali soap that will also aid in rust inhibition.
I could not find an MSDS for Gem Lube.
I wonder why it turns blue? Maybe the amines making aldehydes.
What is the mix ratio recommended?
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Sept 18, 2013 19:52:32 GMT -5
Hmmm.......build an insulated shed outback? Every guy that doesn't live alone needs a man cave I practically live in mine the wife finally figured out 'you can move to the barn' was actually no threat whatsoever. Now it's reversed 'you have to stay in the house' LOL.
I knew someone that took a tabletop Frantom model and actually built a totally enclosed oversized wood box that it set in. Might be an idea to kick around, if it had a hinged front you could hand operate it as well. I've never done this, I just know what I seen one time as the had it in the house and didn't want to make a mess.
I've never known anyone to not get into some sort of mess and luckily you won't be cabbing also I can remember quit a few cerium oxide high speed long distance splatters when I was a kid.
BTW I do like the BD-10 for what it is, just didn't realize your needs. Of course being mechanical and into finding items i'm not much on buying new.
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