Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2014 17:35:30 GMT -5
nice to know you is having a few.
Cadmium is certainly an issue, but with lapidary materials??
If we include asbestos-form stuff then we cannot call it "toxic" but instead another adjective such as you describe "dangerous". Although calling asbestos "dangerous" in a lapidary setting is contentious at best.
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blackout5783
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by blackout5783 on Aug 8, 2014 18:13:48 GMT -5
Three important things to remember on this topic:
1) The dose makes the poison. 2) Exposure route matters. 3) Acute vs chronic effects.
Regarding #1, too much of anything can kill you. Look up water intoxication for example. On the flip side, acute arsenic poisoning can occur with as little as 70 to 200mg for adults.
In terms of #2, touching asbestos or anatase (TiO2) is usually not a problem. Sunscreens can have a TiO2 content in excess of 10%. Inhaling the dust? Not such a good idea. So if you use plenty of water, most of the time you're good to go.
#3 is the tricky one. For example, malachite poisoning (actually acute copper overdose) kicks in quickly with nausea and other stuff, so you know you're in trouble. Also helps that your body is pretty good at dumping excess copper, so recovery is usually fairly complete. Cancer and silicosis take years to develop and at that point the damage has been done.
Messages for those of us in the rock grinding world: Always work wet. Know what you're working with. Wear a respirator/gloves if you are concerned about a certain stone. Don't feel like every rock is out for blood. ;D
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transcendental
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Post by transcendental on Aug 8, 2014 19:44:56 GMT -5
Well I certainly didn't mean for all this to unfold the way it did, and it wasnt meant to alarm anyone as i pointed out in the original post, just trying to inform. Perhaps the adjective toxic wasn't completely correct, but doesn't mean there are no risk to these minerals. I also never stated it was a complete list, but a list of common minerals and stones used by lapidarist. To most of us this is a hobby, but there are a few who do this for a living. That increases risk with prolonged exposure.
As far as aluminun, iron, copper etc for most people minor exposure won't cause any issues however there are individuals with allergies such as my self, where inhaling dust or getting metal dust on my skin and in my pores results in sinus and upper respiratory infections and hives. Good to know what materials contain metals to take precautions before a problem arises. (I found this out the hard way working in a spring factory -steel, aluminum, and brass all caused issues- and I've always been allergic to jewelry -nickel, and copper, and I can't wear deodorant that contains aluminum) Quartz is a silicate mineral and breathing in the dust can cause silicosis.
Yes we live in a world with dangers all around us, and what isn't harmful to one person could kill another as Dave mentioned. Knowledge is key and this post was meant to inform.
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Post by stardiamond on Aug 8, 2014 20:43:48 GMT -5
I'm somewhat concerned whenever I work with any fibrous material (which is isn't often) like malachite, pietersite or some kind of fossilized/agatized asbestos. Cutting with water will certainly reduce the amount of airborne particles.
My wife worked a lot with heavy metal paints; chromium etc. in both oils and watercolors. She was also exposed to a lot of solvents working with oil paints and attributes her COPD to exposure
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2014 21:27:54 GMT -5
Malachite it not fibrous. It's chalky like other carbonates.
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Post by stardiamond on Aug 8, 2014 22:37:46 GMT -5
Malachite it not fibrous. It's chalky like other carbonates. Ok, but there are definite health issues working with it. Cinnabar is another one I have cabbed and that has mercury and dust issues. I should have described the issue as inhalation instead of fibrous.
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39don
starting to spend too much on rocks
https://www.etsy.com/shop/DonsLapidaryArts
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Post by 39don on Aug 8, 2014 23:27:05 GMT -5
I worked around asbestos for 40 years and lost 30% of my lung capacity because of it. I expected to turn my toes up around 2000, but several years of drinking a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar in a glass of water every day for several years somehow removed the fibers!
Are you still drinking the vinegar? 39don
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Post by parfive on Aug 8, 2014 23:28:57 GMT -5
Saw a ton of fibrous malachite today. Could be a new item this year, first time I’ve noticed it anyway. Pretty cool-lookin’ stuff, more of a mineral specimen than a rock.
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Post by Rockoonz on Aug 8, 2014 23:42:40 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2014 23:47:40 GMT -5
Malachite it not fibrous. It's chalky like other carbonates. Ok, but there are definite health issues working with it. Cinnabar is another one I have cabbed and that has mercury and dust issues. I should have described the issue as inhalation instead of fibrous. Yeah, I made a thread about this earlier today. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/67006/copper-lapidary-material-toxicity
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2014 23:56:57 GMT -5
Yeah, and?..... not one reference to medical materials on this link. Just another opinion feel good website. Lee, you is better than that! ha! Aluminum was implicated in Alzheimer's in the 1980's because it accumulates in the brains of Alzheimer's patients. But which is the cause and which the effect?? There is no way a species evolves in an environment rich with aluminum that is damaged by that metal. The damaged individuals all die out (millenia ago) and the resistant ones make up the bulk of the population. Basic evolution stuff here. 100 BILLION aluminum cans used in the USA every year. No reported issues even amongst the alarmist crowd. That is 333 per US citizen, every year. 'nuf said.
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Post by nowyo on Aug 9, 2014 0:50:29 GMT -5
Honestly, if I were just starting out doing this, say 25 y/o, I would be concerned about long term exposure to some of this. But, at my age, I don't think I have much to worry about. I'm more concerned about the paint fumes from body work and the gold and silver fuming I did with glass work. Some of us are young enough to think about some of these materials. Now, I see Tela's point here. If you are younger, find out what it is that you are working with. Some of the cumulative effects can be nasty, and you may not realize it's happening until it's too late. It's not hard, most all of the books that I have show the chemical composition of the various rocks/minerals/gemstones we like to play with. Lot's of websites have them, too. At my age, I'm amazed to have survived to this point and I reckon the only way feldspar (Al) is gonna kill me is if a big old chunk falls on my head. I think Transcendental was trying to do a good thing here, and I won't disparage her in any way. Bear with me, I'm trying to get my point across while being somewhat gentle (not my normal state; gentleness, that is, so it's difficult). Most of these rocks will contain one or more chemicals/combinations of chemicals which can be harmful. Some of us are more sensitive to some of these chemicals than others. Think of it like mosquitoes-the little buggers fly away from me, but I swear they'll fly across half the continent to bite my wife. Or Dave's peanut analogy works as well. All of this comes down to chemistry. If you have any concern or interest, I would suggest enrolling in a Chemistry class or two at your local community college. That will really scare you, when you find out that chemistry is mostly math. Knowledge is a tool. There is nothing out there to fear, except fear. Fear makes people stupid. If you're really scared of grinding green rocks, don't grind them. If you're not quite that scared then grind wet, wear a mask and gloves. If you know that you are sensitive to certain materials then avoid them. I used the same brand of deodorant for 30 years. They changed the formulation and I had to go find a new deodorant. A list like this, to be truly useful, would have the actual name of the material [Nephrite], it's chemical composition [Ca2(Mg, Fe)5Si8O22(OH)2]. Sorry, I forgot how to do the sub-script thing and didn't feel like looking it up (and the book was already opened to nephrite). If you're allergic to Calcium, Magnesium, Iron, Silica, Oxygen or Hydrogen then you know that you may want to take some precautions. I certainly hope that no one here is allergic to oxygen although in the proper concentrations it will kill you. The key is knowledge. Know what it is and treat it with respect. If you don't know, ask. With the internet it is so easy to look stuff up it's ridiculous. If you are unsure of what all those weird chemical symbols and stuff mean, ask. If you're not sure who or what to ask then use google or bing or whatever search engine you prefer. Ask here on the forum, I don't think I've ever seen anybody called stupid for asking a safety related question. It's all a learning thing. I know for a fact that Tela can grind out a better cab than I can, and I may know more about chemistry than she does. Well, she's done a lot more cabs than I have and I've probably taken more college chemistry classes than she has. See? It's a balance and knowledge thing. I learn something about cabbing every time I look at one of her pictures, and if you have a question about chemistry feel free to ask. If I don't know the answer (which is quite likely) by gawd I'll find someone who does. Knowledge. Learning. It never ends. Russ
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transcendental
spending too much on rocks
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Post by transcendental on Aug 9, 2014 9:26:02 GMT -5
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Post by Rockoonz on Aug 9, 2014 11:41:24 GMT -5
I work with polymers for a living. It is astounding to see the ingredients in a batch of silicone rubber that is considered to be medical implant grade when fully cured. That is because the nasties are now encapsulated.
In the raw mineral form, Aluminum, Chromium, and all the rest are encapsulated in the host rock and have posed no serious risk to health in that state, in the same way that wearing the malachite cabochon is not equal to grinding it. When processed the potential toxins are released. Using reasonable precautions with all lapidary materials is prudent.
@shotgunner I don't tend to agree with either the alarmists or industry funded "research" when it comes to potential toxins. In a society where we have a thriving gluten free industry and maybe 1% tops of the population actually has a problem with gluten, but on the other hand you have GM, Toyota, etc covering up potentially deadly problems for years, erring to the side of a little safety isn't such a bad thing. I don't wear a dust mask all the time but I only work stones wet and do all my work in a well ventilated area.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 12:08:58 GMT -5
Finally I am in the 1%!! I must eat gluten/wheat free. lol transcendental - contact dermatitis with aluminum?? Really?? Ever have a soda in an aluminum can?? Did you lips get dermatitis? Oh... I just read your link. They found 19 very special cases of this. Those 19 had issues after they were exposed to some aluminum containing vaccine. So, because of these 19 the entirety of the remaining 7,000,000,000 humans must consider aluminum toxic?? That is silly. Consider that nearly 100% of the US population uses aluminum products on a daily basis and how few issues there are. Let me ask. Do you have aluminum in your daily life? Have you ever been to the physician for aluminum related problems? The complete lack of issues means these 19 people are not representative of the population as a whole. A very high percentage of people exposed to lead in the form of bullets have life threatening health issues. Yet, we do not walk around all day worrying ourselves about this possibility. Why? 'Cuz it is so rare as to be noise and not worth listening to. So is aluminum poisoning.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 12:15:46 GMT -5
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transcendental
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Post by transcendental on Aug 9, 2014 12:52:24 GMT -5
Drinking from an aluminum can, no my lips don't swell up but if I wear deodorant containing an aluminum derivative I break out in hives. I'd rather er on the side of caution and not inhale or have prolonged skin exposure to aluminum containing rocks.
I never said the remaining 7,000,000,000 needed to consider aluminum toxic, however to those 19 individuals it can cause problems and omitting an item from a list of concerned minerals due to the fact that majority of people will never experience an issue is not providing a complete list IMHO. You want a list of all potentially harmfull substances that means include them all, not just what is the most likely to cause harm. Once the information is available it is up to the reader to determine where they go from there.
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Post by rockjunquie on Aug 9, 2014 13:01:10 GMT -5
Concerning aluminum- the original tin man in the Wizard of Oz had to back out of the part. He was severely allergic to the aluminum in his make up. (I believe it was Buddy Epson aka Pa Clampet.) My mother in law has the same problem with aluminum in deodorants. My understanding is that a lot of people do. Scott- the point of a list is to list the potentially hazardous materials and let people decide for themselves what to be cautious of. It's the same way that gluten and peanuts are listed on labels. No not everyone has the allergy or intolerance, but for those that do, the warning could save their life. I don't see a problem. No one is fear mongering. Just proposing a little knowledge. What if we had a list and let everyone either debunk or support whatever item they wanted to. It would give the reader a little feedback and more info on the item. Like an amazon review.
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junglejim
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Post by junglejim on Aug 9, 2014 13:02:37 GMT -5
I'd be more interested in a top 10 or 20 list of the most dangerous rocks with what they contain that's dangerous to humans. Rank them from extremely toxic on.
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blackout5783
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by blackout5783 on Aug 9, 2014 16:22:32 GMT -5
Drinking from an aluminum can, no my lips don't swell up but if I wear deodorant containing an aluminum derivative I break out in hives. I'd rather er on the side of caution and not inhale or have prolonged skin exposure to aluminum containing rocks. There's a very important distinction that has to be made here. Aluminum in a can is essentially Al° (that's supposed to be a superscript zero, best I can do from my phone) or elemental aluminum. However it reacts very quickly with oxygen in the air forming Al2O3 or alumina which is fairly inert. That's what is actually in contact with your skin. Deodorant (antiperspirants) on the other hand is aluminum zirconium tetra... something something. In other words, a totally different compound. It was designed to react with sweat to make a "plug" that prevents any more sweat from leaving the pore. Far from inert. What I'm trying to get at is that almost any given element can be a problem (or not) depending on what compound it is part of. It's an over generalization to say that aluminum is safe because of how many people can drink from soda cans and not have a problem. The same is true if you say it's toxic because of vaccine sensitivities or deodorant allergies.
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