jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 29, 2014 4:42:36 GMT -5
Hey James. If your interested send me a partial batch of your best tumbled corals. I'll run the polish and burnish stages in my lot-o and send back to you for a comparison. That way you can see if a Lot-O will greatly improve your corals or not. Kind offer Ann. The Lot-O will no doubt do the job. Just fooling around w/the rotary. experimenting. That's all. May buy a Lot-O one day and put a super polish on all the stock piled tumbles. And may get such a polish from the rotaries. Have been getting great feedback from the experienced guys by posting experiments. Might as well take advantage of the resource.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 29, 2014 6:17:20 GMT -5
This stone was in AO 220 eight days ago(3 days AO 500, 3 days AO 1000 and 2 days AO 14,000) Looks like AO 1000 finish still not removed Closer, this is the 4th time those pits are in the obsidian at polish. Convinced I need 5000 to remove the 1000 pits. How 'bout you're rushing the process in an unfavorable vessel. 3 days AO 500, 3 days AO 1000 And you wonder why they don't look better? I understand that this is an experiment to keep you entertained - or sumtin' like that. But, to me, you seem to be expecting a level of quality which takes time - without taking the time. Convinced I need 5000 to remove the 1000 pits. Don't you think the 1000 will break down given time? ETA: In that last picture, it looks to me as though you are still battling 220. The 220 may be worn down some, but it hasn't been beaten yet. captbob-those are the exact issues. To a tee. 1) rushing process-Back in the long thread I ran this stuff a lot longer, just with a faster less full barrel and crushed glass media. Taking photos along the way, it seemed like the grits had done their job in 48 hours w/no further improvement. So this time I just did 3 days per grit. It 'appears' that after 2-3 days there is no further improvement in this and last run. 2) Unfavorable vessel-Maybe, they are noisy though, but turning very slow and are very full. I seem to be getting plenty of grinding action and no bruising. If the speed is slow enough to not bruise and get grind done, progress is being made. 3) 1000 breaking down-At this slow speed with sugar solution none of the 220 500 1000 seems to be breaking down. I can not see the 500 or 1000. But the used 220 I screened last run and this run and it felt as sharp as the day I put it in there. It is a brown 220 and thru repeated washing and settling I recovered it. It was clearly visible in the slurry and readily separated. Rolled between fingers it felt sharp anyway. The last run I ran the 1000 long and hard and got no improvement in a light shine. The coral at twice the speed in 1000 definitely breaks down and slowly gets a mediocre shine over a 10 day period. I have my eyes on garnet abrasive. It is much softer. It may breakdown in the slow conditions.....it is some cheap abrasive too. $30 for 50 lbs. for 46 grit. AO vs obsidian-David vs Goliath at slow speed. 4) Without a doubt, possibly battling AO 220. Yes. Or 500. Or 1000. Or all. No doubt battling old bruises too. Don't care about the bruises. Another subject, and pretty sure about their origin. A wet shine is target, to heck w/the bruises for now. No new bruises added, convinced they remain from the coarse grind stage. Glad they are there for observation. They in no form look like abrasive scars, more like craters. The last picture is my concern. It is the same scars that i had last run. Mirror. This brings pleasure to my heart. Looks like a repetitive problem. Consistent problem. Drawing a bead on it. Where forth did they come Looking at grit size: 220-500-1000-14,000 so 80-35-18-1 microns. Big red flag. 18-1 jump. 220-500=2.3 to 1 500-1000=1.9 to 1 1000-14,000=18 to 1 The 18-1 jump is not a good thing if the grits are not breaking down. That is worse than going from 100 grit sandpaper to 600 grit on primer on a car. You paint that car and skip 200 and 400, scratches will show up from across the Walmart parking lot. Scratches from 220 glitter in strong sunlight. In obsidian they are pretty nasty looking. And have a broader spacing. But that could be the bottom of the 220 scratches-no doubt. And they may not glitter in the sun after the 500 and 1000 removed material around them. Scratches are getting left behind though. Judging from their spacing and comparing them to 220 500 and 1000 finished rocks it looks like 1000 scratches. Removing 1000 scratches with 14,000 is, well, in the abrasive world, ludicrous. It ain’t gonna happen easy. You are trying to remove an scratch caused by an 18 micron particle with a 1 micron particle. Not likely. Removing a scratch from a 500(35 micron) particle using a 1000(18 micron) particle is easy, you just remove one particle’s depth. Going from 18 to 1 micron you have to remove 18 particles depth of material.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 29, 2014 6:43:02 GMT -5
I have had conversations with Rock Shed and Lortone about this 1000-14000 saga. They were open minded. Rock Shed was already looking into some AO 2000-4000. Lortone talked to the their supplier in Germany to find out the screen size of the AO they had quoted as 5000. Come to find out the screen was like 40 microns. Mainly to screen out refractory particles. But it was allowing 40 micron AO(500 grit) particles thru. When I ran this grit on the 14,000 finished obsidian it looked like a 500 finish all over again. That is when I called Lortone to find out what was happening. All this not a problem in a normal tumbling op cause the grits break down. No problem. But this slow method does not break the grit down and is a special case. Requiring more grit steps. And typically the more grit steps the shorter the runs. The positive side of more grit steps. And it seems less grit required per step.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 29, 2014 9:23:26 GMT -5
Found some 800 --mesh-- aluminum oxide. Industrial spec. To test, it was expensive. It is 5.3-7.3 microns. Just a pound of it. The industrial guys use --mesh-- instead of --grit-- sizing, mostly. 400 mesh =~ 1000 grit 800 mesh =~ 5000 grit 1200 mesh =~ 10,000 grit 8 mesh means 8 wires per inch, which lets ~1/10 inch particles pass through. cool beans. comprendable.
Specific graded sizes cost. Tumbling grades often not sorted and cheaper, fine for tumbling. 5000 grit hard to find.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 30, 2014 9:13:48 GMT -5
Thinking about building a rotary tumbler out of a 6-12 RPM gear box with a large sprocket or face plate and welding 6 inch stubby pipes to it and sticking tumbling barrels in the pipe stubs. A 'Ferris wheel tumbler' for soft rocks.
Am finally convinced that slow tumbler heavily filled with rocks will grind. Next step is to try fillers and thickeners. Looking for the gentlest tumble possible. step at a time
Will start with thickeners. A cream. A cream that carries the grit well. That is slick for lubricated movement. Considering wetted newspaper turned to pulp in a 15 gallon screw top plastic barrel. Using a tile grout mixer to mix it. And let it sit and stabilize. Add a little copper sulfate to keep it sterile. It is disposable and biodegradable and cheap. Also used by an experienced tumbler.
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Post by captbob on Oct 30, 2014 9:34:46 GMT -5
Looking forward to seeing that build!!
I thought you hated fillers.
About that biodegradable newspaper. Won't it be impregnated with grit after it's been used? If there's anything left after it's time in a tumbler, you might be able to mortar a stone wall with it or use it to stucco your barn.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 30, 2014 10:12:32 GMT -5
Looking forward to seeing that build!! I thought you hated fillers. About that biodegradable newspaper. Won't it be impregnated with grit after it's been used? If there's anything left after it's time in a tumbler, you might be able to mortar a stone wall with it or use it to stucco your barn. I do hate fillers. But it seems a necessary evil. Maybe the combo of a slow barrel and filler will get er done on the softies captbob. Had to prove the rocks would grind in the slow barrel first. Next attack is filler. Longer runs probable. Yes, was rushing perhaps, but still getting the grind on. Just to prove that slow speed grinds. Curious what you meant by being impregnated with grit ? It would get dumped each grit change, new pulp each grit. Instead of adding fresh water each grit change, fresh pulp will be ladled in. Gonna go over there and pulp this polish load up and see if it stops the rattling rock syndrome. Trying to get rid of the rattles now. This is a worm gear driven tumbler that uses mortar sand as grit to remove rust in my welding operations. To avoid manual wire wheel removal of rust. It is a real labor saver. Up to 4 foot sticks of steel. Tilt and run to unload.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 30, 2014 10:34:42 GMT -5
Some Madagascar fluorite. hmmm, really soft
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Post by captbob on Oct 30, 2014 10:43:23 GMT -5
I do hate fillers. But it seems a necessary evil. Maybe the combo of a slow barrel and filler will get er done on the softies. Had to prove the rocks would grind in the slow barrel first. Next attack is filler. Longer runs probable. Yes, was rushing perhaps, but still getting the grind on. Just to prove that slow speed grinds. Gonna go over there and pulp this polish load up and see if it stops the rattling rock syndrome. Trying to get rid of the rattles now. Welcome to the Dark Side! I don't believe that the "rattles" are a bad thing in the coarse grind. Yes, you could buffer the coarse grind, but that's kinda defeating (delaying) your goal. Connrock described it as a "swooshing" sound he was after, I call it "slush" - same thing I reckon. Curious what you meant by being impregnated with grit ? It would get dumped each grit change, new pulp each grit. I simply meant that you referred to the newspaper as biodegradable; when once used, it would probably be far from it - IF there is any left. The idea someone posted of using shammies cut up into small strips has my interest. I'll probably try that when I get my obsidian batch to that stage. I'm thinkin' that they could be saved for future loads. That example machine of your new build idea looks like it will be one heavy duty tumbler! I'm still of a mind that the "thickeners" impede your end game polishing. As much as you may hate them, plastic beads have always served me well. They cushion, as well as carry the grit or polish throughout the load without coating (encasing?) the grit or polish. Seems shammies or newspaper would do the same.
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Post by captbob on Oct 30, 2014 10:44:53 GMT -5
That banded fluorite looks like Chinese rainbow fluorite. Didn't know it came from Madagascar as well.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 30, 2014 11:05:21 GMT -5
I do hate fillers. But it seems a necessary evil. Maybe the combo of a slow barrel and filler will get er done on the softies. Had to prove the rocks would grind in the slow barrel first. Next attack is filler. Longer runs probable. Yes, was rushing perhaps, but still getting the grind on. Just to prove that slow speed grinds. Gonna go over there and pulp this polish load up and see if it stops the rattling rock syndrome. Trying to get rid of the rattles now. Welcome to the Dark Side! I don't believe that the "rattles" are a bad thing in the coarse grind. Yes, you could buffer the coarse grind, but that's kinda defeating (delaying) your goal. Connrock described it as a "swooshing" sound he was after, I call it "slush" - same thing I reckon. Curious what you meant by being impregnated with grit ? It would get dumped each grit change, new pulp each grit. I simply meant that you referred to the newspaper as biodegradable; when once used, it would probably be far from it - IF there is any left. The idea someone posted of using shammies cut up into small strips has my interest. I'll probably try that when I get my obsidian batch to that stage. I'm thinkin' that they could be saved for future loads. That example machine of your new build idea looks like it will be one heavy duty tumbler! I'm still of a mind that the "thickeners" impede your end game polishing. As much as you may hate them, plastic beads have always served me well. They cushion, as well as carry the grit or polish throughout the load without coating (encasing?) the grit or polish. Seems shammies or newspaper would do the same. Yep. Any surface damage can be removed by the 220. I agree w/not impeding the coarse grind. Let er rip and remove the damage w/220. The glass filler in coarse probably reduced the depth of the bruises... Will start w/newspaper pulp and work from there. Solids like shammies, balls, leather, pellets next. Solids have to be organized by grit and that is not a strong suit around here. And since the grit is not breaking down much, more grit steps are needed making more solids to keep separated. So was leaning toward disposable pulp first. Concern about your mention of impeding polish. Failures teach. No shame in failing. Trying new ways is important though.
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Post by captbob on Oct 30, 2014 11:19:08 GMT -5
And since the grit is not breaking down much, more grit steps are needed making more solids to keep separated. I don't follow. Do you think that the grit doesn't break down when using plastic beads?? That would be very incorrect from my experience and observations. Filler and time are my keys to a superior (rotary) tumble. Yet, it seems, as though these are the two elements you are trying to overcome. It makes for interesting reading, but a lot of head shaking. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the ride!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 30, 2014 11:43:45 GMT -5
And since the grit is not breaking down much, more grit steps are needed making more solids to keep separated. I don't follow. Do you think that the grit doesn't break down when using plastic beads?? That would be very incorrect from my experience and observations. Filler and time are my keys to a superior (rotary) tumble. Yet, it seems, as though these are the two elements you are trying to overcome. It makes for interesting reading, but a lot of head shaking. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the ride! Yes captbob, the slow gentle tumble does not seem to break the grit down. If it takes 6 grit steps I would have to keep 6 pellets grades separated. With plastic pellets at a faster speed it would seem the grit would break down. That is an advantage of the fillers. And allow only 4 grit steps. Certainly may be going in a strange route to get the tumble. Just trying another path. Considering softer grits like cheap garnet too. Maybe graded quartz sand blast media. All cheap. I feel like the AO is super aggressive and may be overkill on the soft stuff. Mohs 7+ garnet vs Mohs 5+ obsidian.... Maybe a softer grit will do the grinding and break down at slower speeds. This would be good. Another route to test.
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Post by captbob on Oct 30, 2014 11:52:53 GMT -5
I hear coal slag may be the latest thing!
I don't have a set up that will do 12 RPM, so I have no experience there. My concern at such a slow tumble would be rocks sliding instead of tumbling.
ETA: At the slow speed, does the grit possibly not break down due to sliding and not tumbling? Grit crushed between tumbling rocks is gonna break down (given time!). Sliding doesn't seem like it would bother the grit too much - just a thought.
ETA II: Going back to your OP video, it sounds as though the rocks are tumbling. Got errands to run, will think on this.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 30, 2014 17:15:43 GMT -5
It is weird having the barrel go so slow. when the 220 was running with 15-40% glass filler it was a grind sound. Very prominent grinding, less rattling. It sure sounded like the rocks were getting a workout. And the results sure showed it, the sugar laced white water turned dark grey and I was adding a lot of filler about every other day. The last 220 run was longer and the obsidian lost size noticeably.
These fine grits don't loose volume and do not turn the water grey, so it is harder to judge. I do know that the polished rocks lost their shine in 500 in 24 hours.
Sliding/rubbing seems fine. If you were sanding a board you would rub it. As long as the entire rock gets rubbed, all should be fine.
No doubt the tumbling breaks down the grit. 100% sure of that. That is the exact reason I do not want them to tumble. if the tumbling impact is enough to crush grit then I am concerned that it will bruise these tender type rocks. Opting for the sliding. Note the surface of the rocks have a matte finish. That is typical of grit rolling between sliding rocks. If you sand a rock with AO sand paper you get scratches guaranteed. grit held in place by glue. To get a matte finish the grit has to be rolling between the rocks. Look at the glass windowed tumbler on page one of this thread. A large portion of the rocks are sliding in the barrel, namely left and center. Those falling on the right are tumbling. Not so sure they are getting so much abrasion falling thru the slurry. They are getting a good mixing though.
Yes, the video proves they are tumbling. I mixed up a pulp and filled the tumbler with the OB and the thick pulp and it still tumbled. That was total failure. I still like the glass filler. I would probably really the plastic beads. If you say 'I told you so' I will gladly bow. Going to try Terrasorb too. That stuff that turns water into gelatin(polyacrylamide). Do you use floating plastics or sinking plastics ?
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Post by captbob on Oct 30, 2014 22:33:36 GMT -5
My plastics float. I'm not sure how/if that matters. You have a theory on that?
You saying the newspaper was a failure?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 31, 2014 1:27:35 GMT -5
no theory. I have plastic beads for tumbling. They were advertised as sinking. Did not know if it made a difference.
Yes, the newspaper pulp either plugged all movement or let the rocks rattle. No in-between.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 31, 2014 3:22:35 GMT -5
I have experience with a cream in tumbling. It is the limestone coating tumbled off the coral. Lime is soft and comes in many sizes for agricultural purposes. It grinds quick into a long lasting cream in the tumbler. Getting thicker, and easily thinned by adding a little water. Limestone is much softer than fluorite or obsidian and cheap in 50 pound bags. Thinking 1/4 or pea gravel size would be a good start for the tumbler. Added each fine grit step. These corals tumbled with no grit and water for 3 days: before after the cream
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 31, 2014 3:52:59 GMT -5
Mohs 3 CALCITE Limestone 3, Boric Acid 3, Barite 3.3, Brass 3-4, Marble 3-4, Serpentine 3-4, Dolomite 3.5-4
Bagged marble chips a thought. white best.
Maybe aquarium gravel, some applications use calcium carbonate
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Post by connrock on Oct 31, 2014 9:17:09 GMT -5
I'm obviously with captbob on the plastic pellets.I've never really been able to figure out why some people hate them as much as they do? I don't use them much now cuz I finish with the vibe but when all I had were rotaries I used them all the time.
I'd say "slush and swoosh" are the same thing,,,,just different ways of describing that "gentle" sound.What ever you call it,it's not clank,bam,boom! LOL Never done fluorite but I think it's gunna be a whole new world. connrock
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