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Post by MrP on Nov 18, 2014 19:02:17 GMT -5
James
I think you are missing a small set of springs that go inside the larger springs. I forgot that I did replace all the springs also...............MrP
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 18, 2014 19:10:57 GMT -5
Okay and thank you. I'm starting to get a grasp on this (maybe). The top of the machine (the deck) is what vibrates and this is caused by the off-set weights (eccentrics) on that shaft turning at a high speed? Does look kinda like a cam shaft. You wrote on the previous page: The heart of it is the driven shaft with the eccentrics on it. driven by stretchy o-rings to allow the vibration to go thru the o-rings. If my above observation is close to correct, why would they want the vibrations to go through the o-rings? Wouldn't that carry the vibrations back to the motor (which it seems wouldn't be a good thing)? Or, do the belts (o-rings) act as a dampener to lessen the vibrations returning to the motor shafts? It must be some pretty violent vibrating action coming off that shaft for such heavy loads to be possible. Or, maybe I'm not following this correctly yet The vibrations to the belts seem to protect the motor. Looks like the shaft sits forward of the middle of the springs, guessing to give the deck an orbital motion. I think the vibrations just pulls the hopper down and the stones fall a short distance and advance slightly each vibration. Seems like they are just moving the hopper and the stones float for a moment. The ratio of the pulleys makes about 3000 vibrations per second. Should know pretty soon if it is doing it's job. It is not overly loud, actually a gentle touch. But enough impact to break grit down fast...
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 18, 2014 19:22:16 GMT -5
James I think you are missing a small set of springs that go inside the larger springs. I forgot that I did replace all the springs also...............MrP OK. Thanks for the heads up MrP. Will look into that. The springs are rubber coated, but some of the rubber has fallen away. The rubber feet are worn or dry rotted and fallen away too. Double springs, hmmm. Glad I put the photos up. I did inspect the springs closely, the bearings and the springs look like the weak spots. Did not think about double springs.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 18, 2014 19:33:00 GMT -5
Hi James. I have the 30# model from 1972. We used it dedicated for polishing freeform shapes and cabs 15 years ago. The action on mine is about 75% slower than yours (likely due to the VPM setting you have it selected on) There should be dial at the bottom. These machines are "old school", and demonstrate the "vertical" vibratory design. I have 300# one's made in Brazil that must have knocked off and improved on that Viking design. Apart from the solid steel design; the 2nd best feature is the 1cm thick rubber liner!!!! They last forever, compared to the cheap plastic bowls we go through each year on a T%&mler. Best part is the control you have with the speed dial. You don't have to play with additives in your slurry as much. It's a tank. Today's tumblers cannot adjust and destroy your rocks. The manufacturers want to sell more machines, and remove the variables that make tumbling fun/ Oh, its pain in the butt to clean. I would grab an alternate polish bowl that works. Edward. E Smith created that machine, the Viking line (bought and today sold by Diamond Pacific) along with gemstone "dry polishes" and wrote a great book I just read called "How to tumble polish rocks into gems - Secrets of the pros revealed. 3rd Edition. This book is perfect for Tumbling Experts, (IMO) and written for YOUR machine. The book claims anyone can read it and go... Thanks for the info stonemaster. That book would be a nice addition. Will look for a copy. MrP said I might be missing internal springs. Maybe that is why it is going so fast. Or maybe because it is a small 8 pound barrel. Small may go faster ?? The adjustments are a bit intimidating. Can do practice runs to get it right.
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vugs
starting to spend too much on rocks
Rockbiter
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Post by vugs on Nov 18, 2014 20:14:32 GMT -5
Cool. I've always wondered how these were designed.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 18, 2014 20:53:21 GMT -5
Cool. I've always wondered how these were designed. Looks fairly simple yugs. May be some high tech tuning from the thick books.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Nov 18, 2014 21:58:01 GMT -5
Your production level will triple. The vibe tumbler changes the whole game. Rotaries only need attention one day a week but my loto gets attention several times every day of the week.
Sunday - add new rocks in 120/220 check and add water every 6 hrs if needed Monday - full clean out and move rocks to 500 check and add water every 6 hrs if needed Tuesday - monitor action and add water as needed Wednesday- full clean out and move rocks to 1000 check and add water every 6 hrs if needed Thursday - monitor action but very little water is usually needed at this point. Friday - full clean out and move to final polish. Saturday - monitor action but very little water is usually needed at this point. Sunday - full clean out. Burnish if needed and start all over with a new batch.
Chuck
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Post by nowyo on Nov 18, 2014 22:45:09 GMT -5
That's quite a beast. Thanks for the pictures of the guts of the thing. I'd been trying to imagine how they worked, now it makes sense.
Russ
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Post by captbob on Nov 18, 2014 22:45:38 GMT -5
Sounds like having a new born. When do you sleep?
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Nov 18, 2014 22:46:45 GMT -5
James, here's the last edition of Smith's book: www.amazon.com/Tumble-Polish-Rocks-into-Gems/dp/0976560313I have the second edition. It provides detailed instructions for both rotary and vibratory tumbling. You may be able to find a better price with a little searching. Smith, now deceased, invented the Vibra-Sonic and Mini-Sonics that were originally sold by his Geode Industries firm. I've been using a 4 lb. twin-barrel Mini-Sonic for over 25 years with superb results. The Mini-Sonics have no moving parts except the electrical contacts that pulse at a great rate to provide the vibrating/rotating action. If loaded and "watered" properly they produce outstanding results.
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Nov 18, 2014 23:12:35 GMT -5
Building and perfecting one of those would be a fun project, likely the perfecting a lot more difficult than the construction. Thanks for showing the innards.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2014 6:16:21 GMT -5
Building and perfecting one of those would be a fun project, likely the perfecting a lot more difficult than the construction. Thanks for showing the innards. Hard to tell how many things come into play on that machine's design. It is possible that it is more complicated than it looks. May have been tuned with vibration analysis equipment. Most production products would be attached to such analysis equipment. Small things like the belts being in tension(X amount) and their direction of stretch(in X direction) may be used to effect vibration. Or the weight of the deck and exact placement of the off-balance shaft to the springs. Vibration is one of the most complicated subjects of mechanical engineering. And some of the old school engineers were way out in the clouds and totally advanced in mechanical design. I know that some systems invite vibration and will vibrate in a wide range of weight changes. This machine definitely falls in this category. For it to shake 8-50 pound barrels by simple eccentric adjustment a large 'sweet spot' has been designed into this machine. Add a one dimensional tubular barrel and things are much simpler. And barrel is basically a pipe, so easy to fabricate. Most of the vibration is orbital, along the pipe, instead of a bowl where mixing is from many directions. If it was me, I would copy. very closely, the design, and be guilty of copying ha. Drop the pride, and copy the heck out of it. If that little eccentric arrangement will tumble that many rocks, then copy it exactly, to the last detail. To avoid 'the perfecting it' as much as possible. I have my tape measure ready Larry, tell me what dimensions you need The only complaint I have is that fancy double shaft motor. I am sure it is there for a reason. Most likely to stabilize the eccentric shaft so that it will vibrate equally along the shaft's length parallel to the deck. At 3450 RPM that thing is buzzing. Did not measure diameter of pulleys, but they are close to the same in size. So the eccentric shaft is in the 3000 + RPM range. So 50 vibrations per second unless they are skipping beats somehow. Wall AC current is 60/second-dats fast. Much vibrating equipment uses 60 hertz in a solenoid form to create vibrations.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2014 6:31:47 GMT -5
That's quite a beast. Thanks for the pictures of the guts of the thing. I'd been trying to imagine how they worked, now it makes sense. Russ Wondering if Russ and/or Larry may get the tools ready and attack building this thing. It is tempting. Maybe full of magic, hmmm. Will be glad to supply dimensions Russ
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2014 6:45:50 GMT -5
Your production level will triple. The vibe tumbler changes the whole game. Rotaries only need attention one day a week but my loto gets attention several times every day of the week. Sunday - add new rocks in 120/220 check and add water every 6 hrs if needed Monday - full clean out and move rocks to 500 check and add water every 6 hrs if needed Tuesday - monitor action and add water as needed Wednesday- full clean out and move rocks to 1000 check and add water every 6 hrs if needed Thursday - monitor action but very little water is usually needed at this point. Friday - full clean out and move to final polish. Saturday - monitor action but very little water is usually needed at this point. Sunday - full clean out. Burnish if needed and start all over with a new batch. Chuck Chuck, you have put me to work. My lazy ways have caught up w/me. I insist on doing the coarse and 220 and maybe the 500 in the rotaries. Have dodged the vibes due to laziness and having to keep a schedule. But the desire to tumble more and get super polish fast has superseded. ha And the vibe is a cool gadget. No lose situation. The rotaries do create 'Tumbling Delay Anxiety', apparently an untreatable mental disorder.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2014 6:54:41 GMT -5
James, here's the last edition of Smith's book: www.amazon.com/Tumble-Polish-Rocks-into-Gems/dp/0976560313I have the second edition. It provides detailed instructions for both rotary and vibratory tumbling. You may be able to find a better price with a little searching. Smith, now deceased, invented the Vibra-Sonic and Mini-Sonics that were originally sold by his Geode Industries firm. I've been using a 4 lb. twin-barrel Mini-Sonic for over 25 years with superb results. The Mini-Sonics have no moving parts except the electrical contacts that pulse at a great rate to provide the vibrating/rotating action. If loaded and "watered" properly they produce outstanding results. I need to get that book to get into Smith's mind Rick. The background info and this man's experience would be great reading. He was probably lucky enough to make good money designing and selling tumblers. I would guess your Mini-Sonic vibrates at the rate of AC current using electromagnetic forces. Meaning no motors, too clever. 25 years of service is about as good a testimonial as it gets. Obviously Mr. Smith was a diverse designer. Thanks for the link Rick.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2014 7:49:18 GMT -5
Andrew (ASI Industries) corrected me. This is a 14 pound hopper. I seemed like a lot of rocks for 8 pounds. The 8 pound hopper was actually two 4 pound hoppers. More the merrier. Thanks Andrew.
captbob, your suspicions held true.
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Post by connrock on Nov 19, 2014 8:48:51 GMT -5
The Viking seems to work on the same principal as the L-O-T except that the Viking vibrations can be adjusted a bit more. The L-O-T has 2 round plastic fans with weights inside of them.These fans are on both shafts of the double shafted motor. The fans can be rotated (by hand) in order to line up the 2 weights which give the unit the optimum vibrations. If the weights are not lined up to each other the vibrations are very erratic and not smooth as thy should be.
I have a very old L-O-T that must have been either the 1st design or one of the 1st. It has a motor with no external shafts and there is only 1 counter-weight that is inside of the motor housing. When the unit is running the rocks in the barrel rotate toward 1 side and the unit shakes and vibrates like crazy. It's obvious that there has to be 2 counter-weights,,,1 on either side of the motor in order to get a smooth vibration and have the rocks rotate in the barrel from front to back and not to 1 side.
I'm pretty much out of the tumbling business now and haven't tumbled a rock in a LONG time,, for a few reasons,,,but if I were younger I WOULD get my hands on a Viking or build one myself,,,in a heart beat! One of those times I wish I was young again! LOL connrock
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2014 9:10:17 GMT -5
The Viking seems to work on the same principal as the L-O-T except that the Viking vibrations can be adjusted a bit more. The L-O-T has 2 round plastic fans with weights inside of them.These fans are on both shafts of the double shafted motor. The fans can be rotated (by hand) in order to line up the 2 weights which give the unit the optimum vibrations. If the weights are not lined up to each other the vibrations are very erratic and not smooth as thy should be. I have a very old L-O-T that must have been either the 1st design or one of the 1st. It has a motor with no external shafts and there is only 1 counter-weight that is inside of the motor housing. When the unit is running the rocks in the barrel rotate toward 1 side and the unit shakes and vibrates like crazy. It's obvious that there has to be 2 counter-weights,,,1 on either side of the motor in order to get a smooth vibration and have the rocks rotate in the barrel from front to back and not to 1 side. I'm pretty much out of the tumbling business now and haven't tumbled a rock in a LONG time,, for a few reasons,,,but if I were younger I WOULD get my hands on a Viking or build one myself,,,in a heart beat! One of those times I wish I was young again! LOL connrock My neighbor is about your age and can work your ears into the dirt. I say you got lotto left in ya. If you can do all that jewelry and metal work...fire the ole generators up. However, I just ran over to the nursery on the ATV and almost died, it is 10F. I for the life of me do not know how you guys brave the cold. Cold and old body parts get my respect. If connrock is done, then so be it. Paid them dues, do as thine will. I would like to see one of you guys attempt a build on one of these. Bet ya can. I got some junk laying around. May try one day. Or donate to the cause. For the third time-will send dimensions(trying to bait one of you mechanical masters). Devil's advocate.
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39don
starting to spend too much on rocks
https://www.etsy.com/shop/DonsLapidaryArts
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Post by 39don on Nov 19, 2014 10:40:41 GMT -5
Building and perfecting one of those would be a fun project, likely the perfecting a lot more difficult than the construction. Thanks for showing the innards. Hard to tell how many things come into play on that machine's design. It is possible that it is more complicated than it looks. May have been tuned with vibration analysis equipment. Most production products would be attached to such analysis equipment. Small things like the belts being in tension(X amount) and their direction of stretch(in X direction) may be used to effect vibration. Or the weight of the deck and exact placement of the off-balance shaft to the springs. Vibration is one of the most complicated subjects of mechanical engineering. And some of the old school engineers were way out in the clouds and totally advanced in mechanical design. I know that some systems invite vibration and will vibrate in a wide range of weight changes. This machine definitely falls in this category. For it to shake 8-50 pound barrels by simple eccentric adjustment a large 'sweet spot' has been designed into this machine. Add a one dimensional tubular barrel and things are much simpler. And barrel is basically a pipe, so easy to fabricate. Most of the vibration is orbital, along the pipe, instead of a bowl where mixing is from many directions. If it was me, I would copy. very closely, the design, and be guilty of copying ha. Drop the pride, and copy the heck out of it. If that little eccentric arrangement will tumble that many rocks, then copy it exactly, to the last detail. To avoid 'the perfecting it' as much as possible. I have my tape measure ready Larry, tell me what dimensions you need The only complaint I have is that fancy double shaft motor. I am sure it is there for a reason. Most likely to stabilize the eccentric shaft so that it will vibrate equally along the shaft's length parallel to the deck. At 3450 RPM that thing is buzzing. Did not measure diameter of pulleys, but they are close to the same in size. So the eccentric shaft is in the 3000 + RPM range. So 50 vibrations per second unless they are skipping beats somehow. Wall AC current is 60/second-dats fast. Much vibrating equipment uses 60 hertz in a solenoid form to create vibrations. James, I read you don't like the double shaft drive motor mainly because of the cost. What if you fabricated your own vib with a single shaft motor using a vee pully set up driving a 2 pillar block setup just above the motor that mimics the double shaft motor. It would just make the vib a bit taller. 39don
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2014 12:38:59 GMT -5
Hard to tell how many things come into play on that machine's design. It is possible that it is more complicated than it looks. May have been tuned with vibration analysis equipment. Most production products would be attached to such analysis equipment. Small things like the belts being in tension(X amount) and their direction of stretch(in X direction) may be used to effect vibration. Or the weight of the deck and exact placement of the off-balance shaft to the springs. Vibration is one of the most complicated subjects of mechanical engineering. And some of the old school engineers were way out in the clouds and totally advanced in mechanical design. I know that some systems invite vibration and will vibrate in a wide range of weight changes. This machine definitely falls in this category. For it to shake 8-50 pound barrels by simple eccentric adjustment a large 'sweet spot' has been designed into this machine. Add a one dimensional tubular barrel and things are much simpler. And barrel is basically a pipe, so easy to fabricate. Most of the vibration is orbital, along the pipe, instead of a bowl where mixing is from many directions. If it was me, I would copy. very closely, the design, and be guilty of copying ha. Drop the pride, and copy the heck out of it. If that little eccentric arrangement will tumble that many rocks, then copy it exactly, to the last detail. To avoid 'the perfecting it' as much as possible. I have my tape measure ready Larry, tell me what dimensions you need The only complaint I have is that fancy double shaft motor. I am sure it is there for a reason. Most likely to stabilize the eccentric shaft so that it will vibrate equally along the shaft's length parallel to the deck. At 3450 RPM that thing is buzzing. Did not measure diameter of pulleys, but they are close to the same in size. So the eccentric shaft is in the 3000 + RPM range. So 50 vibrations per second unless they are skipping beats somehow. Wall AC current is 60/second-dats fast. Much vibrating equipment uses 60 hertz in a solenoid form to create vibrations. James, I read you don't like the double shaft drive motor mainly because of the cost. What if you fabricated your own vib with a single shaft motor using a vee pully set up driving a 2 pillar block setup just above the motor that mimics the double shaft motor. It would just make the vib a bit taller. 39don Perfect solution. I see your point. Pillar blocks cheap, extra shaft and 2 extra pillar blocks-so what. Gotta grease 2, what's two more. 3450 single shafts are cheap. Come on Don, you ran 50 hydraulic commercial vibe tumblers for years, thinking you could build this blind folded. First batch was already polished coral. Started at AO 1000. Can not tell if it is still removing polish or if it is breaking down the 1000 and starting to repolish. Pulling samples as it runs. @24 hours. Watching. Old o-rings broke, it was 20F in the building, either the cold or their age got them. Got 50 for $30. So what.
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