Don
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Post by Don on Jan 14, 2015 17:32:09 GMT -5
When buying equipment and materials at estate sales, how much do you offer if you're going by the assumed retail value of the items? 10%? 50%? I'm unsure what a retail value on the rough rock would be, there's a range of really nice to really bad stuff, so how to you figure a fair offer for the stuff?
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Post by roy on Jan 15, 2015 10:03:26 GMT -5
depends on the condition and how much rough rock ,what kind ?
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Don
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Post by Don on Jan 15, 2015 10:46:36 GMT -5
Assume the equipment is in good working condition or better and the rough ranges from mostly crap to facet grade gems and opal. The seller is not familiar with the lapidary trade at all but wants a fair price. I see this as an ethical dilemma as well; do you take advantage of the situation and offer pennies on the dollar for what you know to be valuable equipment and materials and downplay the value of the items to the seller, or do you try to estimate the retail value, give the seller an idea of what the total retail value would be and offer them X% of that value?
I was recently involved in an estate sale and I think I did it the proper way, but I'd just like to hear some other opinions and thoughts on the matter.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 15, 2015 10:59:59 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind when buying bulk at estate sales is the amount of time and work involved in flipping the merchandise.
#1 how much time and effort is going to be spent relocated the collection to your house #2 is the collection labeled or will you need to do a bunch of research to be able to sell items. #3 If selling online or even on RTH you will be spending time to make listings and take photos. #4 after each sale you will be spending time packing boxes and making shipping labels etc ... #5 how much time is going to take to sell enough of the collection to recover your investment.
Making money this way can be difficult and that's why .20 cents on the dollar is not an uncommon offer. If you go to a sale to buy for your personal collection with no intentions of profit that's a different story and .50 cents on the dollar is still a great deal.
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Post by captbob on Jan 15, 2015 11:06:17 GMT -5
What did you take away from the sale? We need to see!!
You need to consider that while they want to have a pile of money to show for their efforts, those holding the sale really want/need to get rid of whatever they are selling. They probably have no use for the items, whatever they may be, otherwise they would keep them. Also consider that if you aren't buying, someone may come along and throw them a truly low ball offer.
I recently made out quite well at an estate sale. But, I also bought some items that I considered "crap", just so that they didn't end up in going out in the trash. While getting great deals, I also felt like I was honoring the work and efforts of the previous owner - in that his rocks went to someone who would treasure his treasures.
Unless you are talking museum grade material, there are bunches of more rock out there. Just give them a good new home and relate to the sellers how pleased you are to have good 'ol Uncle Joe's rocks in your collection. Knowing that you value Uncle Joe's collection can mean a lot to the seller.
As to equipment/machines, I don't think the seller needs to know new retail prices. Uncle Joe probably bought it at a WAY lower price back when. Instead, I would offer my opinion on it's current value as a used item and then offer X% of that. Remember, the seller doesn't want this stuff or to have to deal with it if it doesn't sell. Offer what you consider "fair" and an amount where both you and the seller walk away smiling.
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Don
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Post by Don on Jan 15, 2015 12:16:40 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind when buying bulk at estate sales is the amount of time and work involved in flipping the merchandise. #1 how much time and effort is going to be spent relocated the collection to your house #2 is the collection labeled or will you need to do a bunch of research to be able to sell items. #3 If selling online or even on RTH you will be spending time to make listings and take photos. #4 after each sale you will be spending time packing boxes and making shipping labels etc ... #5 how much time is going to take to sell enough of the collection to recover your investment. Making money this way can be difficult and that's why .20 cents on the dollar is not an uncommon offer. If you go to a sale to buy for your personal collection with no intentions of profit that's a different story and .50 cents on the dollar is still a great deal. Excellent points! My instincts told me that there is little retail value in rough estate material regardless of how great it is specifically because of these reasons. Moving, storing, sorting, evaluating, listing, reselling...it's a long way before any of it turns a profit. I focused on the value of the precious metals and equipment and set aside valuable small rough material that the seller could pack away if he wanted or sell according to his desire.
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Don
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Post by Don on Jan 15, 2015 12:54:51 GMT -5
What did you take away from the sale? We need to see!! You need to consider that while they want to have a pile of money to show for their efforts, those holding the sale really want/need to get rid of whatever they are selling. They probably have no use for the items, whatever they may be, otherwise they would keep them. Also consider that if you aren't buying, someone may come along and throw them a truly low ball offer. I recently made out quite well at an estate sale. But, I also bought some items that I considered "crap", just so that they didn't end up in going out in the trash. While getting great deals, I also felt like I was honoring the work and efforts of the previous owner - in that his rocks went to someone who would treasure his treasures. Unless you are talking museum grade material, there are bunches of more rock out there. Just give them a good new home and relate to the sellers how pleased you are to have good 'ol Uncle Joe's rocks in your collection. Knowing that you value Uncle Joe's collection can mean a lot to the seller. As to equipment/machines, I don't think the seller needs to know new retail prices. Uncle Joe probably bought it at a WAY lower price back when. Instead, I would offer my opinion on it's current value as a used item and then offer X% of that. Remember, the seller doesn't want this stuff or to have to deal with it if it doesn't sell. Offer what you consider "fair" and an amount where both you and the seller walk away smiling. So here's how it all went down: I was contacted through FB by a family member of a rock club member who had passed away. He needed someone to come out and evaluate what was there and what it might be worth. So I came out last weekend and spent 3 hours going through the estate studio, evaluating everything that was there and looking up the estimated retail value of the tools and equipment to get an idea of what it's worth. It turned out to be a fully equipped lapidary and jewelry studio and a fair amount of rough material and lots of basically new condition equipment. There was a good amount of precious metals and I did my best to estimate retail value but without a scale to weigh it with it was an educated guess more than anything. When I finished, I made an offer on the precious metal based on the current market scrap value and my guess as to the retail value, and also made an offer on two boxes of very nice lapidary rough. I also made an open offer on "everything else" including tools, equipment and remaining rough for approximately 30% of the estimated retail value on the equipment and tools. The seller accepted my offer on the metal and choice rough but held off on "everything else" because he had another person coming out to look at it the next day. I also agreed to produce an inventory list and reach out to anyone else I might know who would be interested. 3 days later, half the equipment is sold/donated but the seller is out of time and asks me about my previous "everything else" offer. I re-do the the numbers based on estimated retail value of what was left (brand new hi-tech diamond 6" trim saw, brand new hi-tech diamond flat lap,brand new hi-tech diamond jewelry buffer,brand new HF diamond bandsaw, + accessories + other tools + jewelry/lapidary supplies + all remaining lapidary rough) and offered about 25% of retail. The offer was accepted and I spent the next 3 hours cleaning out the shop. All total, I spent a good amount of money feel that I got more than my money's worth and feel that I was fair and equitable about the whole deal. I'm not sure how else I could have handled it and still have been honest and upfront with the guy regarding the value of the stuff without feeling like I took advantage unfairly. My conscience is clear, but I'm curious to know how others handle this kind of situation. Was basing price on a % of retail too much? should I have been basing price on a % of after market value instead? The equipment was all more or less brand new.
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Post by captbob on Jan 15, 2015 13:27:28 GMT -5
All total, I spent a good amount of money feel that I got more than my money's worth and feel that I was fair and equitable about the whole deal. I'm not sure how else I could have handled it and still have been honest and upfront with the guy regarding the value of the stuff without feeling like I took advantage unfairly. My conscience is clear, but I'm curious to know how others handle this kind of situation. Was basing price on a % of retail too much? should I have been basing price on a % of after market value instead? The equipment was all more or less brand new. If you're happy and the seller is happy, I guess that is all that matters. I just don't think that retail price should hold much weight here. If you bought a brand new car off the show room floor, drove it 10 miles to get home and then listed it in your local paper to sell, what could you get for it? MY thinking is that using after market value as a baseline would be fair. I would also consider how much it may have cost back when it was bought. Even if it looks new or unused, it may have been purchased for half the current retail price some years back.
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peachfront
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Post by peachfront on Jan 20, 2015 22:51:10 GMT -5
If the estate seller has already sold/donated half the equipment after I'd looked at it, my next offer would be to take what's left without charging a hauling fee. But they missed their chance to get my money. I'm not buying the items after they've essentially screwed me around. And I wouldn't buy or sell precious metals without a legal to trade scale.
What's done is done but 25% of retail for used items that have already been high-graded is far too generous in my area. Your conscience may be clear but it sounds like there's a decent chance the seller is going to hell! Just asking you to spend hours valuing items in their estate, instead of offering to pay you or to at least give you some items, is not very ethical unless they are members of your own family.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 21, 2015 0:38:03 GMT -5
I'm not sure how turning down an offer, then reconsidering is the same as screwing someone around. When I make offers I usually tell the seller that it's the right now no wait price, and that they may get more if they want to wait for the right buyer, and if they say no I offer my phone number if they change their mind. In the rock club I'm a member of we always help with estates no strings attached, it's the right thing to do.
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Post by catmandewe on Jan 21, 2015 0:55:55 GMT -5
I usually will give them an approx value that they will receive if they have an auction. They will have to pay the auctioneer, and they will have to spend several hours/days getting the estate ready for an auction. Then they will have all kinds of people coming in and looking the stuff over and parking, etc.
Then I tell them what I will offer them, it is lower but there are no other fees. They don't have to get it ready, no other people will be coming over, and I will do all the work getting it out of there. I also incur all the costs to move it, store it, repair it, and sell it.
It has gone both ways for me but I know I have been upfront and honest with them and they can make their decision based upon what they have learned.
I think you handled the situation well. I would have dropped my percentage more than you did after it has been cherry picked though because it will take longer to recover the initial investment. But if you both are happy then it was a good deal.
Good deals are fun!
Tony
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Don
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Post by Don on Jan 21, 2015 11:38:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure how turning down an offer, then reconsidering is the same as screwing someone around. When I make offers I usually tell the seller that it's the right now no wait price, and that they may get more if they want to wait for the right buyer, and if they say no I offer my phone number if they change their mind. In the rock club I'm a member of we always help with estates no strings attached, it's the right thing to do. I felt obligated to help out the family of a former member of our rock club. Maybe I got taken advantage of...I don't know...but it seemed the right thing to do.
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Don
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Post by Don on Jan 21, 2015 12:00:28 GMT -5
I usually will give them an approx value that they will receive if they have an auction. They will have to pay the auctioneer, and they will have to spend several hours/days getting the estate ready for an auction. Then they will have all kinds of people coming in and looking the stuff over and parking, etc. Then I tell them what I will offer them, it is lower but there are no other fees. They don't have to get it ready, no other people will be coming over, and I will do all the work getting it out of there. I also incur all the costs to move it, store it, repair it, and sell it. It has gone both ways for me but I know I have been upfront and honest with them and they can make their decision based upon what they have learned. I think you handled the situation well. I would have dropped my percentage more than you did after it has been cherry picked though because it will take longer to recover the initial investment. But if you both are happy then it was a good deal. Good deals are fun! Tony Thanks Tony; I'm pretty happy with everything overall but I think you are right, I probably should have offered less % after the estate had been picked through. There were some rocks missing that I didn't notice until I was sorting through it all afterwards that someone else had cherry picked. Still, it turns out that I underestimated the value of the precious metals and came out well ahead of my investment for everything, just based on that.
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Jan 21, 2015 13:32:14 GMT -5
Ok I'll babble a bit...The moral dilemma goes both ways...from a strictly amateur viewpoint, it is impossible to generalize what is fair. Its a value judgement and people see the same thing differently. You want to please yourself and your moral compass, not someone else's. I had a friend who always went overboard to get the absolute lowest price when he was buying and thew highest when he sold; hmmm, is that fair and moral or capitalistic common sense?
What you did sounds fair to me...most of us do this as a hobby, not a business...or as a business we hope will pay some of the expenses. Our rock collections will be sold for pennies on the dollar when we pass; Having someone help value what is there is nice. Having someone do it fairly is nicer. We buy lots of supplies that we'll never use, but we find it hard to part with them anyway.
Several years ago a local amateur Silversmith passed and they had an estate sale on two or three weekends. My wife saw some jewelry related tools and I went over and talked with them about it on the last weekend. The jewelry items were not selling. I gave some advice. There was considerable scrap and I told them, they could probably sell it pretty easily on Ebay for close to market price and I had a scrap dealer paying top dollar if they wanted to try someone log distance that others had told me about. They were very fortunate noone took advantage at a time when silver was around 30/ounce.The main thing here is to avoid the 1-800 scrap dealers who pay pennies on the dollar. that was the easy part. There was a soldering torch with several tips and two pretty full gas tanks that I coveted but I told them I didnt really know what they were worth but try Craigs list where Id seen other torches for sale. I bought a jeweler bench that a neighbor had custom built for her along with annealing pans and other supplies that she would have a hard time selling anywhere. She said it cost 500 to make and I gave her 150, she was quite disappointed but I dont know anyone who would have bought it at any price. She probably thinks I preyed on her and I think I was more than generous. She had some rotary tumblers and a very nice vibe with several pans for different grits that I wanted but had to tell here to sell on Ebay because I didnt want to pay what I think she could get that way. I made her an offer if she just wanted to get rid of it but told her I would help her if she wanted to use other means as I'd suggested to get higher prices.
I think you have to base prices on something and retail price is generally accepted as the strawman. Ten percent of retail for items that might be discarded otherwise may be generous. There is a difference between what we will pay for items we need and those we happen to see and like
charlie
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Don
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Post by Don on Jan 21, 2015 18:06:10 GMT -5
Ok I'll babble a bit...The moral dilemma goes both ways...from a strictly amateur viewpoint, it is impossible to generalize what is fair. Its a value judgement and people see the same thing differently. You want to please yourself and your moral compass, not someone else's. I had a friend who always went overboard to get the absolute lowest price when he was buying and thew highest when he sold; hmmm, is that fair and moral or capitalistic common sense? What you did sounds fair to me...most of us do this as a hobby, not a business...or as a business we hope will pay some of the expenses. Our rock collections will be sold for pennies on the dollar when we pass; Having someone help value what is there is nice. Having someone do it fairly is nicer. We buy lots of supplies that we'll never use, but we find it hard to part with them anyway. Several years ago a local amateur Silversmith passed and they had an estate sale on two or three weekends. My wife saw some jewelry related tools and I went over and talked with them about it on the last weekend. The jewelry items were not selling. I gave some advice. There was considerable scrap and I told them, they could probably sell it pretty easily on Ebay for close to market price and I had a scrap dealer paying top dollar if they wanted to try someone log distance that others had told me about. They were very fortunate noone took advantage at a time when silver was around 30/ounce.The main thing here is to avoid the 1-800 scrap dealers who pay pennies on the dollar. that was the easy part. There was a soldering torch with several tips and two pretty full gas tanks that I coveted but I told them I didnt really know what they were worth but try Craigs list where Id seen other torches for sale. I bought a jeweler bench that a neighbor had custom built for her along with annealing pans and other supplies that she would have a hard time selling anywhere. She said it cost 500 to make and I gave her 150, she was quite disappointed but I dont know anyone who would have bought it at any price. She probably thinks I preyed on her and I think I was more than generous. She had some rotary tumblers and a very nice vibe with several pans for different grits that I wanted but had to tell here to sell on Ebay because I didnt want to pay what I think she could get that way. I made her an offer if she just wanted to get rid of it but told her I would help her if she wanted to use other means as I'd suggested to get higher prices. I think you have to base prices on something and retail price is generally accepted as the strawman. Ten percent of retail for items that might be discarded otherwise may be generous. There is a difference between what we will pay for items we need and those we happen to see and like charlie Thank you for your thoughts Charlie. At least I will be a little more informed and wiser next time an estate opportunity comes up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 15:56:50 GMT -5
two more pence worth I have had many opportunity to purchase "collections". In my reptile store days we did it various ways and found that the simplest solution was to offer $0.20 on the retail dollar. This for myriad reasons many of which are mentioned previously. Two of these collections stand out. #1) Valued client, age 21, just got his first great job. On day one he dies in a tragic accident involving forklifts. Mom shows up, tells us the tragic story, kills our buzz. Wants us to sell "some of his animals". She is going to use the money to help is new wife pay for the delivery of his baby. Biz partner and I decide, no effing way we want to profit from this. Mom makes it super easy for us, we sell her animals and give her 100% of the money. It turns out he had a HUUUUGE collection and we way more than paid for the delivery and associated new baby costs. #2) Friend and colleague gets murdered by the estranged husband of his tenant. The oldest daughter calls me to buy his reptiles. The rodents facility has been purchased. Just the reptiles. It's a 5 hour haul to his facility, I tell her my 20% policy. She agrees. I then get her to give me a feel for the size of the collection. It is substantial enough for me to go up and have a look. So far I have not said I will buy it because in the animal biz condition is everything. I arrive at the appointed time to see what it's all about. Turns out she missed an entire snake building and the tortoise enclosures behind that! What was supposed to be "150-200 snakes" turned out to be 789 snakes! Ten tortoises turned into 128. Animals are fine. The few thin ones are not inventoried in case they do not respond to our efforts. It takes me a couple hours to inventory, value and add up the total. Doing the math and I pass price. She says "I was hoping for a little more". We are already at $15,000+ so I ask "what's a little more"? To which she says $200!! I said if you help us with the bagging, tagging and stacking and loading of containers into the truck she can have $250! Everyone wins. No way she could keep almost 800 snakes and over a hundred tortoises. She knew it. Not many other buyers gonna come in and do this either. You can imagine! Don, you did fine. I might offer that; instilling a sense of urgency by saying it's a "today only price" is always a good idea. I know in the jewelry biz your sales are 100% emotional and therefore urgency is already put there by the customer. Sales is all build emotion, build urgency, build value offer price and ask for the sale. Buying is the same in this situation. Ignore the rest TLDR; The rest of the story:
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 22, 2015 16:13:46 GMT -5
I think the new equipment has a known retail value. the rock value is harder to judge, as is used equipment.
If you are buying rough for yourself, you should offer on the low end of what it is worth. If you are buying a lot, then even lower. If you are buying it to resell, then retail is only distantly related. You are buying wholesale. And, yes, if the seller can't deliver and you have to work to remove it, that is worth some consideration too. As far as whether to press and advantage with an un-knowledgable seller and a time-sensitive situation, the best guide might be to think how you would want someone to treat your family if you passed.
Tony buys equipment and rough to resell, and he does the hauling, and he is buying in bulk - often tons. If it is a few hundred pounds, the wholesale offer may not be as low.
I do think that 25% might have been low on "brand new hi-tech diamond 6" trim saw, brand new hi-tech diamond flat lap,brand new hi-tech diamond jewelry buffer,brand new HF diamond bandsaw" - we often sell used equipment here at 40-50% of new. 25% is low if this really was new.
At the end of the day however, it only matters that both you and the seller are OK with the value exchanged. That's the definition of a fair price.
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