jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 25, 2015 6:32:05 GMT -5
I am experimenting with sugar at the rate of one tablespoon per pound of obsidian in a vibe. I feel that it increases cutting rate of abrasives and pads rocks at same time. Note that abrasives are probably not breaking down, just stepping the grind with more abrasive steps. Filler-60% glass Abrasive- 3 tablespoons/14 pounds rock and filler Water-Water quantity is done by filling hopper with rocks, filler and water and then turning hopper over and letting it gravity drain for 30 seconds. Obsidian-Mixed varieties, started with a polish on all of them Batter/lub-Sugar at 1 tbsp per pound of rock Run times: AO 500-3 hours wiping out polish to dull matte finish AO 1000-5hours AO 5000-6 hours AO 14,000-At 14 hours, still running, polish still improving, some varieties better than others A bit suspicious of the AO 5000. It seems to be very similar to AO 1000. It may be contributing to long polish run, it is a wider mix than I thought, having a percentage of 1000 grains. Dual flow obsidian pulled at 14 hours in AO 14,000, not perfect, not bad, and still improving:
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 25, 2015 6:39:20 GMT -5
I have another AO 5000 that I will test. It is said to have a range of 2000-9000. Or may skip the 5000 step, and let the Rock Shed AO 1000 step run 10-20 hours.
May use Tide/Borax as thickener in AO 14,000 polish step instead of sugar. Because the sugar may allow a bit too much abrasion for polishing.
Also have some softer 500 abrasive that may break down quicker while using the sugar.
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Post by 1dave on Jan 25, 2015 6:56:35 GMT -5
By Jove, I think you've got it!
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Post by captbob on Jan 25, 2015 8:57:09 GMT -5
Looks like you have come full circle.
Connrock, I'm afraid that we have failed to wean James of his sugar cravings.
*sigh*
wandering off to study sugar futures and stock options...
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Post by connrock on Jan 25, 2015 9:55:09 GMT -5
Don't give up on him yet captbob,,,,, "May use Tide/Borax as thickener in AO 14,000 polish step instead of sugar."We don't want him to come down off his addiction too fast cuz he may crash! LOL Nothin worse then a sweet tooth! LOL connrock
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Post by captbob on Jan 25, 2015 14:42:16 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 25, 2015 20:51:05 GMT -5
Old folks like you have lots of rocks too.(cartoon icon laughing)
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 25, 2015 20:55:52 GMT -5
Don't give up on him yet captbob,,,,, "May use Tide/Borax as thickener in AO 14,000 polish step instead of sugar."We don't want him to come down off his addiction too fast cuz he may crash! LOL Nothin worse then a sweet tooth! LOL connrock I learned one thing, if your going to experiment-do it with a vibe. Them rotaries eat too much grit and take too much time to get results.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 25, 2015 20:58:21 GMT -5
By Jove, I think you've got it! Getting close Dave, getting close.
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Post by broseph82 on Jan 25, 2015 21:52:10 GMT -5
You made it back home jamesp ! Glad to see that
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2015 4:36:19 GMT -5
You made it back home jamesp ! Glad to see that Had a blast Jimi. Thanks for the time houndin. I know you guys are glad to be back after your little marathon.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2015 5:07:35 GMT -5
So a polish was put down quick. Stones still have issues. There are still spall marks in them. They may be polished, but there is still damage from the rough grind and/or SiC 220 step. The 220 step was done in the vibe with straight water. That was possibly the cause. I think they need 120/220 SiC in the vibe run with sugar to protect them from spalling in that step. The 120/220 needed to more aggressively grind the damage from the rotary than the straight SiC 220. The breccias and snowflake an a couple of other varieties worse than others. Running mixed varieties may be folly as connrock mentioned. Next rerun w/sugar will be about as follows: SiC 220-10 to 20 hours ( would prefer SiC 120/220) AO 500- 6 hours (from Rock Shed) AO 1000-6 to 10 hours (from Rock Shed) AO 14,000-till polished (from Rock Shed) Vibe is still running a good bit slower than a Lot-O(thanks fantastic5) May cut back on sugar in the future to promote grit breakdown. Seems to be a fine line between grit breakdown impact and spalling impacts. Anxious to do the SiC 220 with sugar. It is coarse enough to see grit breakdown w/naked eye. Spalling is visible in glass filler as well. If the glass filler looks spall free, the obsidian is spall free. So it serves as a great indicator. Some of it spalls more than others(tempered glass), it too, is a mix. Of different colors. Leaving the cover off the vibe allows evaporation. After 8 -10 hours sugar gets much thicker with cover off.
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Post by gingerkid on Jan 26, 2015 9:35:37 GMT -5
jamesp, do you 'normally' leave the lid off the vibe while tumbling for evaporating water, or is it only when you tumble with a sweet tooth (sugar)? bit off topic, but after seeing captbob's link to the lapidary 'oldies' in Altlanta Craigslist, I wanted to ask if y'all heard about the Georgia couple that is missing that went to see a 66 Mushoss? Please be careful when you check out those Craiglists ads. www.cnn.com/2015/01/26/justice/craigslist-missing-couple/
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Post by connrock on Jan 26, 2015 9:52:08 GMT -5
I hope you can figure out a faster way to do obsidian,etc but my gut feeling is that some things have to run their course which takes time. If grit doesn't fully break down I don't think rocks are ready for the next step.I tend to overdo letting grit break down and even "over lap" my grit stages by(let's say) letting a 500 SC grit run for 2-3 days,,,in the vibe,,,, which breaks it down well past a 1000 stage,yet my next stage is 1000!
I REALLY hope you prove me wrong but I'm an old fart stuck in his old ways! Good Luck James,,, connrock
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Post by captbob on Jan 26, 2015 10:14:51 GMT -5
I'm the same way as connrock, except that in a rotary we're talkin' much longer time periods. Everything breaks down well beyond the point (grit #) where the next step is starting. James, you mention spall marks on your stones that are in the polish stage. I assume that you aren't working them out of the stones before moving past the coarse steps simply because you are more interested in the process of getting to the polish you are searching for, rather than perfect polished stones. (?) Wandering off to find that thread or posts about jamesp and broseph82 rockhounding - musta missed it somewhere.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2015 10:39:00 GMT -5
I'm the same way as connrock, except that in a rotary we're talkin' much longer time periods. Everything breaks down well beyond the point (grit #) where the next step is starting. James, you mention spall marks on your stones that are in the polish stage. I assume that you aren't working them out of the stones before moving past the coarse steps simply because you are more interested in the process of getting to the polish you are searching for, rather than perfect polished stones. (?) Wandering off to find that thread or posts about jamesp and broseph82 rockhounding - musta missed it somewhere. Looking for a perfect polish only. Avoiding spall damage at any step. I did not use sugar on these on the AO 220 step. Trying to simply grind with a couple of extra steps totally avoiding grit breakdown. The same process used on hand grinding telescope mirrors by hand to get an optical grade polish. They press hard on the early SiC steps to shape, and then press lightly on the final AO finishing steps. But they do not get to such a polish by depending on grit breaking down. Just by more steps. it is a common practice to grind w/out grit breaking down, for instance cabbing, the wheels remain the same grit for each step.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2015 10:49:47 GMT -5
jamesp, do you 'normally' leave the lid off the vibe while tumbling for evaporating water, or is it only when you tumble with a sweet tooth (sugar)? bit off topic, but after seeing captbob's link to the lapidary 'oldies' in Altlanta Craigslist, I wanted to ask if y'all heard about the Georgia couple that is missing that went to see a 66 Mushoss? Please be careful when you check out those Craiglists ads. www.cnn.com/2015/01/26/justice/craigslist-missing-couple/ I lost one of the lid hold downs yesterday morning Jan. So I let it run w/out the lid. When i came back from rock hunting the slurry was thicker than molasses LOL. The motor is mounted under the hopper and heats up the rocks when running. A freeze protection. Next time I may have caramel ha. Selling cars on Craig's list is dangerous. My neighbor has an armed family member(son) discreetly located on all deals. He has also been burglarized several times. They know he keeps big wads of cash doing that business. It pretty much paints a target on your home. His wife is no longer at peace when she is home alone and wants to move. And have him get a car lot away from the home to do his transactions.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2015 11:07:51 GMT -5
I hope you can figure out a faster way to do obsidian,etc but my gut feeling is that some things have to run their course which takes time. If grit doesn't fully break down I don't think rocks are ready for the next step.I tend to overdo letting grit break down and even "over lap" my grit stages by(let's say) letting a 500 SC grit run for 2-3 days,,,in the vibe,,,, which breaks it down well past a 1000 stage,yet my next stage is 1000! I REALLY hope you prove me wrong but I'm an old fart stuck in his old ways! Good Luck James,,, connrock I seem to be getting spalling damage on the obsidian once the 500(for example) finish has been obtained. Spall damage on all grits. It is a catch 22. Once the 500 finish has arrived any time spent past that creates halos on the edges. But that was when using an overly wet slurry. Let's see what happens with the sugar. But I was not trying to rush. Just avoiding spall damage. Which is what causes the most failures w/obsidian. It is accepted practice to simply step down in abrasive size to get a polish in many abrasive operations. Only in tumbling and some lapping operations is grit breakdown involved. They simply use 50 micron grit to remove 10 microns, 25 micron grit to remove 5 microns, 12 micron grit to remove 2 microns, etc,etc. It is a big advantage to have grit breakdown on most stones, not so convinced it is good for obsidian. The time it takes to lay a 500(or any grit) is very fast, hours. I think I may have just proved that. But the time it takes to break grit down seems a long time comparatively. And during that breakdown bruising and spalling may occur. Testing in the vibe is easy and quick. Won't take long. You have tons more experience than I do. You probably did all this in the past LOL. Just to give you an idea, I just started using thickeners in the vibe less than a week ago. Certainly classified as a greenhorn. Just starting the journey. Uh, the thickener in the vibe journey. many other failed journeys....
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Post by captbob on Jan 26, 2015 11:45:54 GMT -5
I should maybe clarify - when doing a grinding run (in my case, usually 60/90) I don't run until the grit has broken down for any overlap with the next stage. That wouldn't make sense, as I am trying to remove rough rock. I may repeat the 60/90 several times before the desired shape/smoothness of the rock is achieved, but I often do clean outs and/or recharges while the 60/90 grit still has some bite left to it. The coarseness of the grit is needed to shape/smooth the rock before moving on. ONCE the rock is where I deem necessary to move on, I will let the final 60/90 cycle run until the grit has broken down - probably well past 300. THEN I back track to the 120/220 step. Each grit following the initial 60/90 is allowed to do it's thing and break down past the beginning of the next step. Looking for a perfect polish only. Avoiding spall damage at any step. I did not use sugar on these on the AO 220 step. Trying to simply grind with a couple of extra steps totally avoiding grit breakdown. I dunno... Maybe glass ain't the filler you should be using? I moved on to 320 after 3 weeks of 120/220 and had TWO rocks not make the cut. They were held back for a future 120/220 run or to keep as surface examples of what I'm looking for after the 120/220 stage. ETA: the 2 were held back simply because they weren't ready to move on due to slight imperfections not yet removed. Not due to damage which occurred in that cycle. Again, I don't know, but something is amiss here. You speak of spall damage and endlessly of bruising. I just don't have those problems. Not bragging or something like that, just trying to get a handle on what is happening in your world. WHERE is all this damage coming from or WHY is it happening? I'm truly at a loss for an explanation here. You seem to be so meticulous in your process, yet your results don't reach your expectations. You SHOULD have the best damn obsidian tumbles ever seen on planet Earth with the care and thoroughness you are throwing at this project, and yet... self-portrait -->
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Post by captbob on Jan 26, 2015 11:54:27 GMT -5
It is a big advantage to have grit breakdown on most stones, not so convinced it is good for obsidian. Is this because damage may occur during this breakdown time? In that case, I would think that conditions within the tumbler need to change. Damage shouldn't happen simply because the rocks are allowed to run longer. They should get better with time - not worse! edit fer spellin'
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