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Post by MrP on Mar 1, 2015 13:57:55 GMT -5
Well I tried ingawh's 2-step tumble, 150/220 Sic and 600 AO in my UV-45. I also used sugar for the first time. ingawh what do I do with all the polish I have? Sure looks like I do not need it any more. I sure like the saving of clean-outs.
I sure wish I could take better pictures because this batch has an unbelievable shine.
Yes the Obsidian was tumbled in the same batch and has one of the best shines I have ever gotten on Obsidian. In fact with the last run of just Obsidian I ended up rerunning it twice before I was happy with it.
If I could get the pictures to show the shine better I would probably post more....................................MrP
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Mar 1, 2015 14:30:38 GMT -5
She gave us a lesson MrP.
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Post by snowmom on Mar 1, 2015 17:53:10 GMT -5
wowser! Learning curve on these boards just shot up by several points... (taking notes furiously)
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 1, 2015 21:38:19 GMT -5
Mr. P, how about some more details? How much abrasive did you use? How long in each stage? How much sugar? Did you use sugar in both stages?
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Post by orrum on Mar 1, 2015 21:57:46 GMT -5
X2 on the directions!
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riverrock
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since April 2010
Posts: 1,395
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Post by riverrock on Mar 2, 2015 17:04:51 GMT -5
Looks like I got to get to pet smart and get some fish gravel. Did you use the same type as ingawhs ?
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Post by MrP on Mar 2, 2015 19:52:39 GMT -5
Jugglerguy, orrum In coarse grind I had 25 lbs. of pendants & slabs and 30 lbs. of crushed saw scrap. The crushed scrap is left over scraps from making pendants and pendants & junk that would not take a polish. I just took a hammer and broke it up. In the coarse grind it really doesn't matter what kind of junk you have because it is just 'smalls' for filler. The tumbler is a UV-45 so I used 1 cup 150/240 Sic and 4 cups sugar. I was not sure how the sugar would work as that is the first time I used it. With that much weight in the tumbler it does a good job of grinding and seemed to do even better with the sugar. I let it run 5 days, which was longer then may have been needed but once the grit is worn way down there is no real wear on the bowl so I wanted to make sure it was all broken down. For clean-out I would keep adding 1/2 gal water then suck it out with a turkey baster, then add again until the water is not too nasty then add a crap load of Dreft soap. I found it is easer rinsing and using the turkey baster to get rid of the worst of the sludge and it takes way less water. Let the soap do it's magic, a couple more rounds of water then rinse for next stage. I know it sounds like a lot of messing around with clean up but with a very large load there is no way around spending time doing it. The polish run was the 25 lbs. of pendants, 35 lbs. of ceramic media, 1/4 cup 600 AO, 5 cups sugar. It ran 6 days. I checked some slabs each day and they were ok in 4 days but got better each day I left them in. The 7th day was Sunday, 6 full days of run, so it seemed like a good day for clean-up. It is no small task cleaning up a load that size. The real reason I bought the UV-45 was for tumbling larger slabs so when I do that I run 3 or 4 rounds of slabs, 15 - 20 slabs each run, in each stage then move on. There will be only 2 steps now instead of the 5 I used before. Saves time on clean-up between stages. I also have a VIBRA SONIC VT 45, like jamesp has to tumble even larger slabs, 3 - 5 each run. I am absolutely amazed that this process works. I have tumbled many loads and have had times I had to go back a step or two to get the shine I wanted. I have always had trouble with glass and obsidian and there were some of each in this load that turned out great. Thank You ingawh....................................MrP
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,676
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 2, 2015 20:30:25 GMT -5
Totally awesome!!
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 2, 2015 20:56:29 GMT -5
Thanks Mr. P! I appreciate the detailed instructions. I'm going to have to give this a try.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Mar 3, 2015 5:24:10 GMT -5
On the UV vibe, the motor mounted below heats up the rocks and can make the sugar get too thick in 12-24 hours if using 1 cup per 14 pounds. Quicker if you leave the cap off. It can seize the movement of the rocks and damage them, so make sure you check it and keep it moist.
Last run I used 2 cups per 14 pounds of rock in a polish only run. It seems relative, less water w/1 cup=more water w/2 cups. Not much difference.
I seem to get an even higher polish if the cap is left off for the last 8 hours and let the sugar get real thick and slow the roll of the rocks to half speed. But really need to keep the roll from stopping or getting too slow. If it stops it will sure bruise your rocks.
Too do final clean, I add Dawn to slurry, about 3-4 tablespoons and vibrate it in for 2 minutes. Then add water till hopper is full and vibe it another 2 minutes. Pour/drain it off and do it once more. Then soak them in hot water with dishwasher soap.
The sugar gets in the cracks. If left, bacteria will eat it since it is organic. Or you can put the tumbles in a tub of water for a few weeks and speed up the bacterial process. That works best. Bacteria efficient and loves sugar. Once the sugar is gone a lot other slurry related particle fall away from the cracks.
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Post by MrP on Mar 3, 2015 5:40:44 GMT -5
On the UV vibe, the motor mounted below heats up the rocks and can make the sugar get too thick in 12-24 hours if using 1 cup per 14 pounds. Quicker if you leave the cap off. It can seize the movement of the rocks and damage them, so make sure you check it and keep it moist. Last run I used 2 cups per 14 pounds of rock in a polish only run. It seems relative, less water w/1 cup=more water w/2 cups. Not much difference. I seem to get an even higher polish if the cap is left off for the last 8 hours and let the sugar get real thick and slow the roll of the rocks to half speed. But really need to keep the roll from stopping or getting too slow. If it stops it will sure bruise your rocks. Too do final clean, I add Dawn to slurry, about 3-4 tablespoons and vibrate it in for 2 minutes. Then add water till hopper is full and vibe it another 2 minutes. Pour/drain it off and do it once more. Then soak them in hot water with dishwasher soap. The sugar gets in the cracks. If left, bacteria will eat it since it is organic. Or you can put the tumbles in a tub of water for a few weeks and speed up the bacterial process. That works best. With the way I do clean up the first time I suck it out with the baster it is a thick syrup. I started doing it that way because I was running back to back coarse runs and just wanted to get the thick slurry out of the bowl for next run of coarse. Worked so good I use it for start of clean up now..................MrP
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Mar 3, 2015 5:59:41 GMT -5
The sugar can be an issue if not removed. Rewet the rocks a year later or let them get humid and hot and you will have sugar all over them. Sticky mess. Final clean is important. Sugar can not stand before bacteria. And bacteria is small enough to get it out of the smallest crevice.
I quit doing a clean out on the UV when doing SiC 80 and 220 runs, just added fresh grit and enough water to thin the slurry. Clean out every third grit addition.
The SiC 80 is a bit of a waste. When running 1-2 inch tumbles with small coral chips or garnets the 80 grit is crushed to like 220 before it can cut the tumbles. In several hours. The bigger the grit the faster it crushes. So the reason polish can be reused so many times.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Mar 3, 2015 22:21:49 GMT -5
Hey Mr P! So glad you're having some fun with a two-step method!
I never had much luck with sugar, but based on your description, I probably didn't use enough. The psyllium fiber (basically Metamucil) finally did the trick for me, and I like that it didn't seem to take much of it to get the effect I wanted.. One other thing about the psyllium is that it forms just enough of a doughy consistency that it wants to hang together. That means it helps pop the slurry out of any little pits or cracks. Until I tried psyllium I never had slurry wash out so cleanly.
Anyway, it's just cool to hear that folks are experimenting! I finally realized after a while that an important first step was to toss the instructions that came with the Lot-O-Tumbler. I don't think even the manufacturers realize what a great little gadget that thing is, because all those steps are just not necessary, and in some cases are counter productive. I kept trying to be more and more precise in following their instructions, and finally realized that was not getting me where I wanted to go.
So cheers to the experimenters!
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Mar 3, 2015 23:15:33 GMT -5
ingawh what do I do with all the polish I have? Sure looks like I do not need it any more. I know, right?! I have buckets and bags of polishes and grits and I never use now. I don't think I ever touched my expensive cerium oxide, because I found how to finish the obsidian in the vibe before I tried it! Sometimes I want to polish something that's too big for the vibe, and then I actually haul out the tripoli again. I no longer have a vat of thick, used polish slurry hanging around, so it's an expensive proposition to start a new batch from scratch - I have to really like the rock! I do go ahead and use the psyllium as a thickener with a long, slow, rotary polish, but to avoid too much organic action getting going in the barrel, I add a couple teaspoons of chlorine bleach. In general, your grit bill should start going down, and the corners of your mouth - up! :-)
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Mar 5, 2015 9:13:14 GMT -5
Funny thing ingawh , my old Viking vibe instructions suggests rice hulls for padding. I do not like them because they are too coarse and do not coat all the rocks well for a day running. So bruises occurred during breakdown. The rice hulls are unique in that they are 20% by weight opaline silica, go figure. They sink in water, so they are certainly dense. Bamboo and horse tail rush(equisetum) are also full of silica. Seed hulls are often durable materials like those of walnuts. Nature's way of protecting germination I suppose. The psyllium seed husks are small and make a great instant batter. I tried generic Metamucil since you have suggested it and was pleased. Instant batter. Rice hulls have to run a day before they turn into batter. By that time your rocks have had time to get bruised. The delay to make batter is a real problem. The psyllium makes good sense. In some cases is sold ground up, as is the case when added to laxatives like Metamucil. The horse industry often uses whole psyllium seed as a horse laxative. And offers it in 2-4 pound containers. Maybe the ground up version of psyllium is best for tumbling for instant batter. I am not so into being an 'organic' person, ha, but organic compounds are complicated and well designed in nature for a purpose. Walnut shells a good example, as are corn cobs and corn starch. All of them used in industrial tumbling operations to this day. Abrasive companies sell grit impregnated corn cobs. That may be an approach for rock tumbling.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Mar 5, 2015 11:59:24 GMT -5
Hi jamesp! Thanks for the extra info on the silica content and your other experiments and observations. Again - Cheers to the experimenters! This is great stuff!
In the spirit of sharing, I can add that I've tried the walnut shells and other things, but they were lots more fuss and mess for no discernible improvement to my polish. Not saying more experimentation couldn't have coaxed a better result, but once I broke out and tried psyllium, I never looked back.
One of the reasons I fell hard for the psyllium is it's slight tendency towards a doughy quality that makes it want to stick to itself - like developing the gluten when kneading bread. I know I mentioned this on another thread, so apologies if you already read this, but that slight doughy-ness means that any little pockets of slurry in any cracks or pits pop right out, taking every speck of grit with them. You'll get a sense of this from the cap of the Lot-O-Tumbler - it may get wet during my tumble polish, but it's basically clear liquid - contains virtually no grit or psylium. That stuff all stays down in the barrel. Clean up is SO easy! A couple rinses and the water runs clear. Then I like to use hot water to finish rinsing out the soap, but since it's running completely clear at that point, I do it right in the kitchen sink. (When they're nice and hot, the rocks dry off quickly, which I also like.)
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Mar 5, 2015 12:47:14 GMT -5
I follow your reasoning about the batter being sticky and being a grit carrier ingawh. I am a freak about at a minimum a slight thickener in all my tumbling operations. But the vibe seems to do better with an even stickier and pastier batter. The fine powder of the Metemucil has a great consistency. I seem to favor sugar, but Borax, psyllium and other thickeners seem to work fine. Next obsidian load will sure have psyllium added. Quartz pebbles too. Agate is easy compared to obsidian, much more forgiving. And the use of quartz pebbles that are well smoothed for use on obsidian. I am rolling some pebbles to use for the obsidian. Looking forward to the next OB run.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Mar 5, 2015 13:36:40 GMT -5
Can't wait to see what you get! Fingers crossed and hoping for glory!
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Mar 5, 2015 17:29:11 GMT -5
Really nice looking batch of slabs MrP. I can't imagine cleaning out a UV45, my UV 18 takes "forever". Liking the turkey baster idea may have to give it a try.
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SirRoxalot
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since October 2003
Posts: 790
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Post by SirRoxalot on Mar 12, 2015 13:24:29 GMT -5
You folks are inspirational!
The thought of being able to tumble-polish a whole slab makes me happy.
Very cool.
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