jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 1, 2015 18:24:44 GMT -5
All by accident, because of being a slacker with clay slurry.
The story:
Been busy and not nursing my 4 barrels. Do a clean out every weekend and add new SiC 80 and(my obtuse) 2 cups clay per 10 pounds each grit add. Instead of adding rock to make up for size reduction I let the barrel drop to 55-60% full. BUT, I don't worry about frosting because of the constant thick clay slurry. So the barrel is less than normal fill but slurry is thicker at start than normal, offering plenty of protection.
The theory:
The way I see it, at 55-60% full and no threat of damage due to instant thick slurry the roll in the barrel is much more conducive to grinding more. Because the avalanche within is longer. More sliding action. Avalanche bridges the widest part of the barrel. Every revolution, over and over. Same ole crap I have been tumbling for 3 years. It is shaping faster. it is non-conventional to start with a thick slurry. And to run barrel with a low level at 55-60%.
Tumbling:
Delicate botryoidals, solid coral and pet wood. Botryoids not at risk w/clay.
Slurry consistency:
About the same at start up as the slurry at clean out after a week of SiC 80 on agate, i.e. fairly thick.
Been going on for several(4-5) months.
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panamark
fully equipped rock polisher
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Post by panamark on Sept 1, 2015 19:17:36 GMT -5
That is great info James! I think you are right on with your assessment. I have a load in the rotary right now that by accident, it has a really thick starting slurry. I used the cleanout goop from the tray of a silcarbide grinding wheel. A gritty, dirt. Anyway, it made almost instant slurry. So I will clean out in a few days and can see how it did. I think you are absolutely right that by limiting the frosting and bashing with the clay, you can fill less and get more movement and grinding with each turn.
Keep the info coming please! Thx, Mark
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 1, 2015 19:50:12 GMT -5
It's been going on for months panamark. Pretty sure it's working. It's the added movement. Perhaps, 90% slower than 80%, 80% slower than 70%, etc etc, till you hit 50%.
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panamark
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Post by panamark on Sept 1, 2015 20:17:33 GMT -5
It's been going on for months panamark. Pretty sure it's working. It's the added movement. Perhaps, 90% slower than 80%, 80% slower than 70%, etc etc, till you hit 50%. You talking about my age again James?
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Sept 1, 2015 22:50:19 GMT -5
Can't get good natural clay here, so I got some bentonite [drilling mud to some] in an attempt to cushion a 5 gallon load of glass slag. 4 cups worked great, no frosting at all. Thanks for the idea jamesp. Now I have to figure out how to polish it.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2015 6:36:55 GMT -5
It's been going on for months panamark. Pretty sure it's working. It's the added movement. Perhaps, 90% slower than 80%, 80% slower than 70%, etc etc, till you hit 50%. You talking about my age again James? Age apparently does not slow Mark down. Anyone that hangs out in Panama half the year has got to have some energy.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2015 6:43:43 GMT -5
Can't get good natural clay here, so I got some bentonite [drilling mud to some] in an attempt to cushion a 5 gallon load of glass slag. 4 cups worked great, no frosting at all. Thanks for the idea jamesp. Now I have to figure out how to polish it. Clay is stable and provides reliable consistent slurry Larry. No foam, gas, effects from temperature, bio hazards, expense. I have gone thru almost two 5 gallon buckets of it in 5 months. At 2 cups per 10 pounds I just let it roll, even if it is on the wet side the coarse grit is gone in a week. Polishing slag glass another story, ha. wish you well on that venture.
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grizman
freely admits to licking rocks
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Post by grizman on Sept 2, 2015 12:04:52 GMT -5
We don't have natural clay in my area (desert) do I looked at buying 5-10#'s of dry clay to use as the slurry builder. I find that there are several different "mesh" grades even for the Bentonite. Is there one that is better than the other, or does it matter? Finer? Courser? Help jamesp!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2015 13:37:30 GMT -5
I do not think it matters grizman. I would imagine it will break down and thicken to a slurry regardless. About all clays are fine particles. And my clay has some sand in it, no matter for course grind. The clay I am using is dry and powdered and clumpy, natural and unsifted. 10 minutes in the roller and it is entirely mud. Because a rotary tumbler is also a mixer the mud stays mud and makes the slurry very heavy suspending the grit well. it takes a long time for the heavier SiC to settle out of the slurry if you pour it out and let it sit in a tub. Telling that it is floating the grit.
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grizman
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Post by grizman on Sept 2, 2015 13:47:51 GMT -5
Thanks jamesp, that all we needed to know to get one more "trade secret" working to our advantage. Now all I have to do is make sure that I do not end up with concrete!
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Post by Jugglerguy on Sept 2, 2015 14:05:10 GMT -5
jamesp, although you're getting individual rocks done quicker, you're polishing fewer at a time. Assuming a fixed number of barrels, does this really speed things up? I keep rough grinding until I get enough to fill my vibe, so if I get fewer rocks done quicker, or more rocks done slower, wouldn't the end result be about the same?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2015 15:05:56 GMT -5
jamesp, although you're getting individual rocks done quicker, you're polishing fewer at a time. Assuming a fixed number of barrels, does this really speed things up? I keep rough grinding until I get enough to fill my vibe, so if I get fewer rocks done quicker, or more rocks done slower, wouldn't the end result be about the same? Could well be Rob. 9/16 to 5/8 vs 3/4 full, but if it takes a lot less time then maybe better. I think 9/16 full is stretching the bounds of numerical description of a tumbler barrel. 9/16 = 56.25% I can be weird if I want. Seriously, you may be correct. Benefit-they will all be at the same duration.
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grizman
freely admits to licking rocks
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Post by grizman on Sept 2, 2015 15:22:06 GMT -5
jamesp, I know I have stated this before in an old thread, but do you think that old, dried out slurry mud will act the same as the clay? I let the used slurry dry out completely in a 5 gal. bucket and then break it into pieces that I can add to the rocks and grit when I start a new cycle. I guess my question is, is there any advantages over the clay and my old slurry method?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2015 17:16:30 GMT -5
There is 100's of clay types grizman. Ours happens to be felspar based and is flat platelets(colloidal I believe). Many clays are of rounder particles like slurry probably is. My slurry is a bit gassy due to river organics I suppose. So I never reuse it. Have heard many do. Have heard gas issues too. If you never have gas issues then by all means use it. Mechanically, slurry is like mud and should work if you don't have gassy slurry. You guys don't have clay ? I ask because it is about 90% of the soil in the piedmont of Georgia. Then again, all are mountains are worn off like nubs. PS Kitty litter is fired clay. It may work. They may have new non-clay based kitty litter though...
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stonemaster499
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Post by stonemaster499 on Sept 2, 2015 21:45:21 GMT -5
kitty litter is bentonite..
jamesp, have you progressed the clay past the grind? I wonder if you can filter it to remove the sand contaminates. Very interesting that you are now flipping common sense on its head. 50% load for max grind, then cushioning (reduces grind) with clay... This is like redbull and vodka! (stimulant mixed with a depressant)
Help me out here: The big advantage of the clay is its cost, cushioning properties, and "instant slurry". Also its suspension properties might make it deliver the grit differently. In my limited tests, i cannot see the difference, or benefit compared to "used slurry". The clay did impede the grind for hard stones. But, I imagine it DOES allow hard stones to mix with softer stones?? Used slurry is free, cushions, and also creates "instant slurry"/ Kick-start. and can be saved and recycled too. Great for soft stones. The benefit is that you have waste mixture ready for each stage, unlike the clay (stages 1 and 2 only)
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rastageezer
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by rastageezer on Sept 2, 2015 22:44:52 GMT -5
I can see the use of slurry for rocks that are getting to stage 2 but not there yet. I start fresh and almost have pudding using #80 grit in 12# Lortone barrels after two weeks. Longer tumble equals better results.
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rastageezer
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by rastageezer on Sept 2, 2015 22:56:03 GMT -5
I should clarify......Longer means months.......as for the rocks.....Lakers, Mel's Rios (mud makers in the first stage) and pet wood.....among others
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2015 23:04:11 GMT -5
That makes sense. Slurry = clay, stonemaster499. And being lazy, a complete clean out is easy, dumping slurry each time on ground and adding the clay. And not adding rocks is lazy too. Lubricating and carrying abrasives can be hard to figure what works best. Thicker sure seems like it would slow the grind. Recently I am not so sure. Referring to delivery and abrasion rate. Could all be related to the less full barrel... I tried polishing rose quartz, mixed granites, hard basalts with clay and it took a long time. Barrel was 75% full though. So have been doing coarse grind and 220 with clay and then finishing in the vibe with sugar and 500, Borax and 14K. All mohs 7. So the sand in the clay is of no concern. Gave up on softer stones, so speeding up coarse grind on Mohs 7 is a big help. it takes a long time.
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rastageezer
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by rastageezer on Sept 2, 2015 23:54:25 GMT -5
Marl was extensively mined in Central New Jersey as a soil conditioner in the 1800s. In 1863, the most common marl was blue marl. While the specific composition and properties of the marl varied depending on what layer is found in, blue marl was generally composed of 38.70% silicic acid and sand, 30.67% oxide of iron, 13.91% carbonate of lime, 11.22% water, 4.47% potash, 1.21% magnesia, 1.14% phosphoric acid, and .31% sulphuric acid.[4]. I live on top of this stuff. Marlton. Guess it's time to throw some in the tumbler!
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles
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Post by stonemaster499 on Sept 3, 2015 0:12:59 GMT -5
Interesting jamesp . 50% load should max your grind, along with the fastest RPM that doesn't cause the rocks to cling to the sides. Also for speed lower grit size 23-46, as you well know, and less water. I have also found barrel shape to be a topic overlooked: round, hex, octa, and my favorite- the octahedral with tapered ends (like a diamond). The round is normally the best for the grind, and the hex for softer stones. The hex is like 50% less efficient for grinding, but much more forgiving. If something is off, the shape keeps the tumbling action going, whereas the round shape doesn't. Rock tumblers are usually running too slow and hex design. I bought an octahedral and it came with tapered ends. I assumed, since this is a more modern design in tumbling, it would be even more delicate than a hex. Somehow the additional sides and and diamond shape causes the rocks to move around with more surface area grinding much more efficiently than even the round. So, the shape of the barrel too is huge.
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