Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 25, 2015 20:28:09 GMT -5
I picked up an old Thumler Model A the other day without any barrels. I probably should have just left it there and not worried with it but... I decided to make as big of a barrel as I could for the tumbler...this will be for coarse tumbling only. I couldn't find 6" pvc pipe so I went with 4". After the fact I ran into a friend of mine that runs the water department for the city and asked him if they ever have any junk 6" pieces...broke pieces, cut-offs, etc.,. Looks like I'll be getting some pieces 6" pipe on the cheap!!!! More barrel building to come....but, I've gotta have something to roll it!!! Anyhow, I went ahead and put together a barrel out of 4" pvc pipe (sch40). It holds just a grunt over 4 pounds of rock at the 75% level....this is without very many smalls at all, no grit, no water. I had read about pvc brusing or frosting rocks so I decided to line the barrel. I used some rubber from an old piece of farm tire inner tube...thickness is roughly 1/16" thick. I overlapped the edges by about 3/4" and positioned the overlap so that the rocks would tumble off the overlap rather than into it (if that makes sense). The rubber goes all the way to one end of the pvc pipe but stops about 1" short of the other end to allow the clean-out plug to fit inside the pipe. I used "Shoe Goo" to attach the rubber to the pvc...smearing Shoe-Goo on the rubber and pvc and then putting the pieces together (per directions on the Shoe-Goo). I cut two round pieces of rubber and Shoe-Goo'd one in the pvc end cap that I would later glue onto the pipe. I had to cut a notch out of that circle of rubber so that it would lay down flat in the curvature of the cap. I put the other round piece of rubber over the inside side of the clean-out plug, filling all the hollow places in the plug with Shoe-Goo before attaching it. I'm not sure how this piece will work out...but it's there for now. I'm letting it all cure now...so will probably no sooner than Sunday before I try it out with a batch of rocks. I still need to figure out how to keep the barrel from running up against the pulley or the other end of the frame. I thought about a simple block of wood attached to the frame with one of those sliders like goes under furniture for the barrel end to ride against...but not sure if it would wear out too quick. Suggestions are welcomed!!! Now,....the problems. The tumbler rollers on the drive shaft appear to be "dried out" a bit...not as grippy as I think they could be and the barrel slips on them. I might try a little rubber buffer on them to see if they'll soften up a bit. The empty barrel basically just sits there slipping on the rollers. I have not oiled the bushings/bearings so that may help things. The drive shaft seems to be more "snug" than the free-wheeling one. The tumbler does better when I load the barrel with rocks as it will roll the barrel then...I guess there's enough weight there to force the barrel against the rollers more firmly. But, if if the tumbler is rolling the barrel and I unplug it and plug it back in the tumbler will not start the barrel back up...I can hear a very low hum coming from the motor. I'm afraid that if the power goes out while I'm away and comes back on it will burn the motor out. Anyhow, that's what I tinkered with tonight. I'm seriously thinking of rounding up the parts to build a more substantial tumbler...I'm just not very good at matching up parts so they fit each other right. Anybody got a parts list for a 15-20 pound tumbler. Here's some pictures of my struggle.<grin> ETA: I clocked it at ~42rpm. IMG_7235a (Custom) (2) by Intheswamp, on Flickr IMG_7236a (Custom) (2) by Intheswamp, on Flickr IMG_7239a (Custom) (2) by Intheswamp, on Flickr IMG_7240a (Custom) (2) by Intheswamp, on Flickr IMG_7243a (Custom) (2) by Intheswamp, on Flickr
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Intheswamp
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Member since September 2015
Posts: 1,910
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 25, 2015 20:34:02 GMT -5
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quartz
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breakin' rocks in the hot sun
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Post by quartz on Sept 25, 2015 22:30:33 GMT -5
I've built a couple 4" barrels, they get pretty heavy. Likely the motor just doesn't have enough grunt to get the barrel going w/o help. One thing I do to save weight is cut half of the pipe fit area off the cap and use it on the other end to bring the size up and level the barrel. Cheap magnetic starter is start button off clothes dryer, that way if the power goes out, machine won't restart by itself.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 25, 2015 22:35:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the ideas, quartz, those are good ones! Both ideas are great and will keep them it mind for future barrels!
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Post by captbob on Sept 25, 2015 22:51:48 GMT -5
I like it! Yup... you're fitting in quite nicely here. Why the rubber liner if only used for rough cycle? Doesn't the small pulley on the motor still spin even if the big pulley isn't turning?
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Post by orrum on Sept 26, 2015 5:20:56 GMT -5
I run them like that but no liner. Beware of grit in the thing locking the cap in place. Just screw the bolt total loose and then punch the impacted grit and tiny rocks from around the cap with a flat bladed screwdriver.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 26, 2015 7:06:05 GMT -5
captbob... Well, I didn't end up with the volume that I wanted but maybe if I can get a machine built strong enough to handle the 6" pipe I can get to where I'd like to be which, is enough coarse ground rocks in one coarse tumble to feed a Lot-O. Why the rubber liner? Two reasons (in my mind)...maybe neither is legitimate...?? The first one is to prevent the rocks from sliding in the barrel as the barrel rolls, rather than tumble, and possibly causing flat spots on the rocks. The second reason is my concern with bruising and frosting. I was under the impression that rocks in pvc pipes are subject to these maladies and that the softer rubber would cushion and prevent this from happening. Is bruising and frosting only very superficial and not matter in the coarse stage? When the small pulley turns the big pulley does, too. When the big pulley doesn't start to turn after the tumbler is powered on the motor pulley doesn't turn either. It seems the motor isn't strong enough to start the load turning. I'm not sure whether oiling the shaft bushings and the motor will help. I bought the machine from a guy that advertised it as "...used in great shape the motor is quite and strong." I've sent a message to him regarding oiling the motor and bushings...before I do anything to it I want his permission, otherwise I might "void" my return privileges...if he gives me the go-ahead we'll see what that does. Looks like two ports on the Dayton motor, one on the back and front, just over the shaft bushings. What to use?....3in1 oil?.... orrum, I'm trying to envision what you are talking about. I'm thinking that I will need to remove the wingnut, then the outer cover and rubber seal, and it's the small gap between the edge of the inner plastic cover and the wall of the pipe that gets packed with grit and rocks? By you stating that you run your pvc barrels unlined I'm beginning to think that the problem of bruising or frosting isn't an issue in the coarse grind stage....that it's an issue only later in finer grinds or polishing stages. ? Thanks for the help!!!!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 26, 2015 7:07:17 GMT -5
Great build Ed. PVC great for coarse. Like Bob said, for rough grind no problems with PVC. Another way is (starting left to right): End cap-4" pipe-coupling-4"-3" bushing-short stub of 3" pipe-3" rubber Fernco cap Same thing here except 6 inch. Oops, (starting right to left, but same as above): 4" rubber Fernco cap, short stub of 4" pipe, 4"-6" bushing, 6" coupling, 6" pipe, 6" end cap. Funny thing, the green PVC barrel in the background is SDR 35 drainage and the rocks slip like crazy in it. As far as slippage, sch 40 much better, it is a bit more rubbery than the green PVC. And you will have little slippage in a 4 inch PVC. More likely in bigger pipe. Harder to bruise rocks in a small barrel. Big 12 inch barrels a different story. Your design is great. Consider the Fernco cap. If you get 6 inch pipe from a municipality make sure sch 40 fittings fit on it. Some municipality grade pipe may be different and fittings expensive. Have seen municipality grades of pipe that are super thick, not a problem as long as sch 40 fits them. If it is too tight to put an end stop roller consider mounting one on a couple of heavy somethings and place it on each end of the tumbler-free standing. Or mount whole tumbler on 2 X 8 or 2 X 10 and attach end rollers to the wood.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 26, 2015 7:49:11 GMT -5
Howdy Jim. Glad to see you joining in. I'm about 30 miles from my closest Lowes/HD and the local hardware stores have three prices on things, plus, I don't like somebody looking over my shoulder when I'm plotting and planning looking at parts for one of my projects. Thus, when I got to HD the other day I panicked when I saw they didn't carry 6" pipe...the fittings, yes, but not pipe. Anyhow, I had to "re-scheme" things on the spot and came up with what I did. I did grab a 4" Fernco cap "in case" but using 4" pipe without a reducer (and smaller Fernco) on the end of the barrel the screw would hit the tumbler shafts. The Fernco cap seems less problematical. I'm saving it for when I build a 6" barrel. Ok, I won't worry with lining the barrels anymore. 6" are ok, too, it sounds like. That Shoe-Goo ain't cheap! Hmm, maybe I oughta save this one for some type of fine grit/polish barrel and build another unlined one for coarse grinding... There's cracks and crannies in this one, though, around the edges of the rubber, especially at the bottom that might be difficult to clean...I'll probably just keep it for coarse. I've got a 3'-4' piece of pvc pipe that is probably 8", maybe 10"...must be at least a 1/2" thick wall. When you get that big is it better to line the pipe? The only problem I have with making something out of it is the fittings....after looking at the price on the 4 and 6 inch fittings those bigger fittings would have to be killers! I definitely wouldn't be making a lot of short barrels of that diameter! Do you think the power problem I have on that little Thumler Model A is simply a worn out motor or do you think oiling will help? Or... Thanks for jumping in....
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 26, 2015 8:07:56 GMT -5
4" rubber Fernco cap, short stub of 4" pipe, 4"-6" bushing, 6" coupling, 6" pipe, 6" end cap. If you get 6 inch pipe from a municipality make sure sch 40 fittings fit on it. Some municipality grade pipe may be different and fittings expensive. Have seen municipality grades of pipe that are super thick, not a problem as long as sch 40 fits them. If it is too tight to put an end stop roller consider mounting one on a couple of heavy somethings and place it on each end of the tumbler-free standing. Or mount whole tumbler on 2 X 8 or 2 X 10 and attach end rollers to the wood. Strange, I wanted to come back and comment on the parts of the barrel and saw there was some more text at the bottom of the message. First, the barrel. You show/state a 4-5" bushing and then a 6" coupler. I was thinking that a 4-5 inch reducer would negate the need for a bushing. In other words...Fernco cap > 4" stub > 4 to 6" reducer > 6" pipe > 6" end cap. The reducer and end cap would have the same OD so the barrel would ride level. Maybe I'm missing something? Thanks for the head'sup about the difference in pvc grade pipe! If it comes down to it I guess I can get my buddy to get me some fittings, too...I'll pay for them, of course (hopefully at a discount!<grin>). I would think the sch40 fittings would still be cheaper when I think about that piece of thick pipe that I've got...it's really thick! The space inside the frame between the sides and the barrel is indeed fairly tight as I tried to maximize barrel volume...a roller inside would have to be pretty small. I like the idea of positioning them on the outside and mounting the tumbler to a wooden base. For now, it all depends on whether this machine stays with me or not...the motor's performance is disappointing as it is now...I'm waiting on the seller to give me the ok to oil it and see what happens. If it doesn't work out it'll go back and I'll do something else. I'm thinking that my ideal coarse tumbler would handle 8 pounds of rough. That should yield enough formed rock (with some rejects) to feed a single barrel Lot-O. Time will tell where all of this ends up!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 26, 2015 8:36:53 GMT -5
First, the barrel. You show/state a 4-5" bushing and then a 6" coupler. I was thinking that a 4-5 inch reducer would negate the need for a bushing. In other words...Fernco cap > 4" stub > 4 to 6" reducer > 6" pipe > 6" end cap. The reducer and end cap would have the same OD so the barrel would ride level. Maybe I'm missing something? Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/72278/thumler-model-pvc-barrel-hybrid?page=1#ixzz3mqluRu7DDid you mean 4"-6" bushing Ed ? Uh, 5" ?? Had to see if I typed it wrong. Since the end cap and coupling all are the same diameter they ride level. Using a coupling and a bushing you do not have to cut the coupling down, just make the pipe shorter. I see you had to hit the rubber on the shaft. Still able to if you had cut the pipe shorter and used the full size coupling lest I am missing something. I have never found a schedule 40 reducer, only bushings, so the bushing. You are right, the Fernco clamp will hit the shafts on any size if you do not reduce it a pipe size. I had the same problem. 8" pipe laying around. Darn fittings are 3 times more expensive. I use the 8 inch barrel. But do not really like it, prefer a 20-24 inch long 6 inch barrels. Especially if doing rocks the size of tennis balls. it is gentle. Cheaper to buy a whole sch 40 6 inch pipe and use 6 inch fittings. Plumbing contractors usually have cut offs....
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 26, 2015 8:50:05 GMT -5
The green drainage PVC does use reducers. The shoulder wears thru, after 2 months on this one. The reducer is a slug of thick plastic and will take forever to wear out. That motor say 1/100 HP. Guessing that is on the low side. You can fill the barrel more to help use less starting power. But it will slow the grind. A half full barrel requires much more horsepower than a full barrel. A half full barrel of rocks won't even roll down a steep hill, a full barrel sure will.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 26, 2015 8:52:17 GMT -5
Rubber liner hard to stick to PVC. If it starts to peel and catch grit, it may not matter as long as you only coarse grind in it.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 26, 2015 9:00:23 GMT -5
If you ever do a home made, use thicker shafts and make it long so you can run several barrels. Four bearings for 2-4 barrels cheaper, longer shafts cost a bit more. Less barrel/belt maintenance. Auto v-belts must last 600 years on a tumbler, made for much heavier duty than tumbling. Drawback with long shaft is running larger motor regardless of one or four barrels. 1/4 HP running no-load pulls less current than 1/2 HP running no-load. Same if loaded equally.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 26, 2015 9:03:12 GMT -5
You are right, I meant to say 4-6" bushing...fingers stiff. Cutting the coupling in half on my barrel was just the cheapness in me coming out. I figured that'd give me another "leveler" for another barrel. And, too, being as the little Thumler only has a couple of small rubber wheels on it the leveler didn't have to be too wide. I may regret that later if I use it on a larger tumbler, but I guess then I can cut a coupling in half vertically and glue it on...I'm a glutton for punishment. After your post I went and looked for a 4-6 inch sch40 reducer...nope, didn't find it either so I understand the bushing and coupler on the six inch barrel now. Thanks for that info, now I won't waste time looking for them and aggravating salesmen at HD...of course that might be fun. Yes, I think the HP rating is a bit lacking. But, I'm thinking this tumbler originally turned to paint cans weighing probably 3 pounds each...seems it should've been able to turn what I put on it. Ah well, we'll see. I'm thinking that I'm going to need a stronger motor...oil or no oil.<sigh> I understand the reasoning of the full barrels versus half-full barrels. I had the barrel what I deemed to be 75% full...when I turned the barrel on its side it looked pretty crowded in there. The motor wouldn't start it from a dead stop, though.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 26, 2015 9:19:58 GMT -5
I am going to do the parts here on open forum Ed, hope that is OK. Brick schnitt house tough tumbler: Order four 3/4 inch pillar bearings w/needed grease fittings. - Surplus C. Order two 3 inch pulleys with 3/4 bore, to give posi-traction and avoid having to slide rubber down shafts.-Surplus C. Get 3/4" solid shaft from wherever, I get them at junk yard. Some body has them. Get two at minimum 3 feet long. Mild steel fine. Nothing fancy. Get 2" X 10" treated good ole southern pine, 8' to 10' long should do. A bit of 2 x 4 or 2 x 6. Put it all together like this, should take 2-3 hours: That is a 40 pound barrel of 8 inch PVC, and motor on back is 1/8 HP fan motor. Retired the back breaker 8" and use 6" barrel now. Beast has run for years. Note rubber hose on shaft-waste of time. It slipped with the rubber, so I added the pulleys on the end for posi. Build that on blind faith. The motor is easy to attach to the wall on back, lots of space. Slot motor mount holes or drill a series of holes to get belt at proper tension. Now for the motor and pulleys. Notice the big pulley(sheave). It has a 3/4 inch taper lock instead of having to use keyway(and keyed shaft). That big pulley is also a Surplus C. purchase. It costs, but so does a double reduction and two belts. That is as far as I can take you till you buy/get a motor. Need to know motor shaft size and speed to calculate your pulleys. Plenty of space to work with to mount many different motors. Surplus C. pulleys use A or B belt, no issues there. I take the unit down to the car parts place and aggravate them till they find the belts that fit. They send me back to the stock room and let me find the belts to fit.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 26, 2015 9:36:22 GMT -5
On the forum is great! Ok, that's good...I had been figuring 3/4". I'm glad to hear that the shaft metal doesn't matter that much as they can be had for lots cheaper on eBay than at Surplus Center....or scrounged for even cheaper than eBay! I wonder if any of the hardware stores carry southern pine.<grin> I think I've got some laying around somewhere. That all looks good and doable!!! Now...how about that big old round wheel thing on the left-hand side of your tumbler? ...and the motor to turn it?....rpm's, pulley size,.... Thanks, Jim, this gives me some good info for future/present planning!!!!!
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 26, 2015 9:37:58 GMT -5
Oh, and on the pillar bearings....do we need to get the ones with locking collars?....maybe just get two, one for each shaft to hold the shaft in place?
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Post by captbob on Sept 26, 2015 9:47:11 GMT -5
What does that PVC barrel weigh? Thinking that you go bigger and you are going to have weight issues with that small motor.
Oil that motor. 3in1 fine. Any light weight oil like that. One drop in each port every month or so. White bushings on the roller ends get a drop also.
Think motor pulley ought to spin even if big one doesn't. I doubt the belt could be too tight. Should be a small allen nut holding the motor pulley on the shaft. Maybe it is loose?
You come up with a MacGyver to keep the barrel from walking end to end?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 26, 2015 9:48:22 GMT -5
Yes, two with lockers. Theirs has two set screws on each pillar block. Good enough for me. Motor-1725 RPM or less-yes-fans come in 1125 RPM. The 1125 allows you to use a smaller(expensive) big pulley. Me cheap scate. Some say air over fan motor is going to get hot. Never had such a problem.
Added a note above about the big pulley, depends on motor speed.
And barrel diameter !!
PS Many commercial A/C units come with 110VAC 1125 RPM motors, most are useless 208 volt. What is good about them is they are often 1/6 or 1/8 HP. Cheaper to operate than the common 1/4 HP. Full of torque, great for tumbler that size(15-30 pounds).
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