lancemountain
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 214
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Post by lancemountain on Mar 17, 2017 17:49:44 GMT -5
Hello! I purchased my first tumbler last summer and just getting around to using it- it's a lotrone dual 3lb tumbler.
The first round went fairly well- one side had banded amethyst and the other side had mixed agates and whatnot (I bought the tumbler and all the grit/rocks from the Rock Shed so it was a mixture)
I did a week for each stage and they came out great- I started lurking this board and the internet in general and I do realize some of my mistakes (some of the rocks weren't completely done after the 60/90 stage- small cavities and harder surfaces. Also I did not use the plastic pellets that was in my kit)
This second round I am in now I have learned a few lessons- one side is Apache tears which I made sure they were ready after the first round and I used the pellets. They are currently in the polish stage so fingers crossed. The second barrel has Tiger's Eye which thanks to searching this board I kept them in the rough grit stage for three weeks and I'm glad I did as I can really see the difference.
Soo, I'm learning my way and already have "the bug" and may look into a second tumbler if anyone has suggestions.
My main question is this- I found one of those websites that sells gems and crystals and healing stones and whatnot and they had a pretty good list of tumbled products-I used this gallery to choose rough to buy off ebay (another question-any recommendations to buy rough?)
Some of the bags of rough I bought have very low Mohs scale hardiness- I didn't think to look. I have Serpentinite, Lepidolite, carmine calcite??? and sodalite.
(I also got various jaspers and agates) So my main question really is how do I tumble these softer rocks? Do I skip right to the second finer grit? Does the first round of grit, the 60/90 stage just get shortened? Do I put the pellets in right away?
My apache tears are coming out sunday so I would like to start a batch of one of these, so any help is welcome!
Thank you all!
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,422
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Post by Wooferhound on Mar 17, 2017 19:28:09 GMT -5
A QT66 dual 6 pound tumbler would be an excellent addition to a Lortone dual 3 pound tumbler
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unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
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Post by unclesoska on Mar 18, 2017 0:26:35 GMT -5
If I had your tumbler, I would dedicate both barrels to course grinding, and purchase a Vibratory tumbler, such as a Diamond Pacific MV4 or very popular on this forum is the Loto. This will increase production, conserve on grit, and give you much more play time, as a vibe needs to be tended at least once a day, usually more often, but you'll have shiny rocks in a week instead of months.
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lancemountain
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 214
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Post by lancemountain on Mar 18, 2017 0:58:36 GMT -5
Uncle- tow follow up questions here and one may seem a little ignorant- if I do a batch in course grit-can I remove the rocks and re-use the same slurry over and over again? And secondly are vibrating tumbler loud?
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 18, 2017 8:13:57 GMT -5
Uncle- tow follow up questions here and one may seem a little ignorant- if I do a batch in course grit-can I remove the rocks and re-use the same slurry over and over again? And secondly are vibrating tumbler loud? You cannot reuse coarse grit. Assuming that you have run the grit for a week or so, it should all be broken down into a much more fine grit by the time you do a clean out. silicon carbide breaks into smaller pieces as it tumbles. Those smaller pieces are still sharp, so they continue to grind your rock, but they make smaller and smaller scratches over time. Some people will use some old slurry in their next round of grinding to thicken up the slurry and make the fresh grit stick to the rocks more. I'm not one of those people, but it's a common practice. You can reuse polish. I do not reuse polish because I use a Lot-O vibratory tumbler. Vibes use much, much less grit and polish, so it's a waste of time to try to save the old stuff. I only use 1/2 TEAspoon of polish in a 4.5 lb. Lot-O barrel. You mentioned that you improved your second batch by running the first stage for three weeks instead of one week. That's great! If you want to take it a step further, don't run the whole batch for a set number of weeks in the first stage. I clean out my barrels once a week. I dump everything in a colander= and rinse it all off, catching the slurry in a bucket so it doesn't clog my drain. Then I inspect all the rocks one at a time. When a rock is flawless (no holes or cracks), it gets set aside. The rest of the rocks go back for another week. I add fresh, rough rocks to the barrel to bring the volume back up to about 3/4. Each week I do this and eventually I have set aside enough rocks to fill the barrel for the next stage. So some rocks will be in the rough grinding stage for three weeks, others four weeks, and some might take 12 weeks. My rough grinding barrels just keep up this process forever. After the rough stage, everything goes to the Lot-O to get finished. You can also finish in a rotary, it just takes longer and uses more grit and electricity. As for your soft rocks, I don't have experience with anything on your list, except calcite. With soft rocks, you can either run the first stage in coarse grit like 80, 60/90 or even 46/70, but you'll have to check in on them much more often. Or you can skip the first stage and go right to 120/220. The 120/220 might be a safer option. My experience Is with Petoskey Stones, which are calcite. They are very soft, about 3 on the Mohs scale. I tumble them in 80 grit, checking them every three days. I use extra water because the slurry is like pudding after about three days due to the large amount of rock removed. I go through the same procedure I explained above, removing some that are done and putting the rest back for more tumbling. Then I move to 220 in the rotary, but wth some plastic pellets added. Then I move them to the Lot-O, but I tumble them dry with corn cob media and 2 tablespoons of 500 grit aluminum oxide. They spend two days there and then two more days with corn cob and aluminum oxide polish. I keep the corn cob and aluminum oxide for use with the next batch. I layer the corn cob and rocks and only fill the barrel with about 1/3 rocks so they float around in the corn cob without touching each other much. I get a pretty good polish doing this, but not as good as polishing them by hand on a flat lap. Be sure to keep your soft rocks separate from your agates and jaspers. I'd start with the agates and jaspers as those will be much, much easier to polish. They'll take a long time but it will be worth it. Lots of my rocks spend months in the first stage, but I'm a perfectionist. I almost forgot to say, "welcome to RTH!"
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 18, 2017 8:18:44 GMT -5
I forgot to mention how loud vibratory tumblers are. I have the same Lortone tumbler you have. I'd say my Lot-O is about as loud, but in a different way. The Lot-O makes a humming noise, rather than the noise of rocks falling as the barrel rotates on a rotary tumbler. Mine is in my basement and is barely audible upstairs. I have a larger Lortone (QT66) that is much louder than either the Lot-O or the Lortone 33B. The larger rotary makes much more of a clunking sound since the barrels are larger and the rocks fall farther. I definitely hear that upstairs and so does my wife. She tells me.
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,666
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 18, 2017 9:55:12 GMT -5
I have two Lortone's rolling and really don't notice the noises of either of them.......My buddy has a Vibe,his out rates my rotary's on noise,by a long shot!
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 18, 2017 10:01:38 GMT -5
I have two Lortone's rolling and really don't notice the noises of either of them.......My buddy has a Vibe,his out rates my rotary's on noise,by a long shot! What kind of vibe, Mike?
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unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
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Post by unclesoska on Mar 18, 2017 11:12:12 GMT -5
I can say only this regarding vibe noise- The Diamond Pacific is quieter than both the Ultravibe TV5 and Gyroc Model B, that is the limit of my experience w/ vibes.
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Post by wigglinrocks on Mar 18, 2017 11:30:59 GMT -5
I will agree , the GY ROC vibes do make some noise . Not annoying so ya can't sleep loud though . Mine are in the basement and they don't bother us . Anything that moves is bound to make some noise .
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Post by johnjsgems on Mar 18, 2017 11:57:18 GMT -5
A couple of things. If you are using plastic in the rotary use dedicated plastic. Don't move it from step to step. The grit embeds in the plastic so becomes a scratch maker in finer steps. Secondly, if quiet is a must the MT vibes have no motors to overheat. You can place them on a scrap of carpet to deaden the sound. I had a MT tumbler I sold at a 30 day show returned because it was too noisy. I placed it on an old towel inside a cardboard box and made sure it was running next time the guy came around. He was a "snowbird" using his winter home kitchen as a lapidary shop and I think the tumbler was more his wife's idea. Welcome to the forum. Another point regarding another reply. No matter how large a rotary tumbler is the rocks should never "fall". Load must be kept full enough so rocks roll over each other. Drum material can affect noise. Keep barrel 3/4 full for best results, 2/3 as absolute minimum.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 18, 2017 12:22:07 GMT -5
Another point regarding another reply. No matter how large a rotary tumbler is the rocks should never "fall". Load must be kept full enough so rocks roll over each other. Drum material can affect noise. Keep barrel 3/4 full for best results, 2/3 as absolute minimum. You're right, "fall" was a poor choice of words. They do roll farther in a large tumbler which does make more noise though. My six pounder is a lot louder than my three pounder. Both are filled to 3/4.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Mar 19, 2017 9:12:12 GMT -5
lancemountain I have tumbled a few batches of softer stones. Not all are alike so you may need to experiment a little. Sodalite is one I have some experience with. It is the same hardness as Apache Tears, 5.5 to 6. Both of these can be shaped using 220 as the first step, I have done so. They both, however, will stand up well to 60/90 or 46/70 in the first step. I have also mixed these two stones with mohs 7 rocks as well. They grind much faster than the agates and jaspers when mixed together. I once had a mix of sodalite, obsidian, labradorite, moonstone and salmon feldspar. All these are in the 5 to 6 range on the mohs scale. I began the batch using 220 grit for the first step. Everything shaped well but slower than I was used to. About the third week I switched to 60/90 to see if things would go faster. All the stones did well except the labradorite, it had become thoroughly pitted and had lots of undercutting where none had been before. From what I have read things like fluorite (mohs 4) should be started with 220. They need to be checked every day or two as they lose mass very quickly even in 220. Recently I put a piece of howlite in with some agates. It was about 2" around and 3" long. At the end of a week it was a little piece about 1/2" around and 1" long. If it were me, with your softer stones, I'd run them together starting with the 220 grit checking often. The rocks should tell you soon enough what they do well with.
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lancemountain
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 214
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Post by lancemountain on Mar 24, 2017 20:58:58 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for the responses- I have looked over this site throtoughly and it looks like there are newbie posts often and I thank you for the help! You mentioned that you improved your second batch by running the first stage for three weeks instead of one week. That's great! If you want to take it a step further, don't run the whole batch for a set number of weeks in the first stage. I clean out my barrels once a week. I dump everything in a colander= and rinse it all off, catching the slurry in a bucket so it doesn't clog my drain. Then I inspect all the rocks one at a time. When a rock is flawless (no holes or cracks), it gets set aside. The rest of the rocks go back for another week. I add fresh, rough rocks to the barrel to bring the volume back up to about 3/4. Each week I do this and eventually I have set aside enough rocks to fill the barrel for the next stage. So some rocks will be in the rough grinding stage for three weeks, others four weeks, and some might take 12 weeks. My rough grinding barrels just keep up this process forever. This is remarkably interesting to me. Again forgive the ignorance here- If I run a batch for let's say 10 days- I can pull some out and then put raw rocks in with some rocks that have been tumbled for a few weeks and they will not effect the smoother, tumbled rocks? From what I have read things like fluorite (mohs 4) should be started with 220. They need to be checked every day or two as they lose mass very quickly even in 220. Recently I put a piece of howlite in with some agates. It was about 2" around and 3" long. At the end of a week it was a little piece about 1/2" around and 1" long. If it were me, with your softer stones, I'd run them together starting with the 220 grit checking often. The rocks should tell you soon enough what they do well with. Great info! If I do start softer stones with 220 grit- will they shape and smooth as well or will the softer stones simply shape and still hold some rough areas? A couple of things. If you are using plastic in the rotary use dedicated plastic. Don't move it from step to step. The grit embeds in the plastic so becomes a scratch maker in finer steps. Secondly, if quiet is a must the MT vibes have no motors to overheat. You can place them on a scrap of carpet to deaden the sound.  John- Thank you for this- both are very helpful.  I have not yet moved pellets to different stages but I would have if I had not seen this post!  As for the MT vibrating I'm researching thoroughly (I live in a row home and have my set up in the basement)
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Post by aDave on Mar 24, 2017 22:05:44 GMT -5
This is remarkably interesting to me. Again forgive the ignorance here- If I run a batch for let's say 10 days- I can pull some out and then put raw rocks in with some rocks that have been tumbled for a few weeks and they will not effect the smoother, tumbled rocks? Not ignorant at all. It was a new concept for me as of a few months ago. As long as you are still working with rocks that are the same/similar hardness, it shouldn't be an issue. Go ahead and pull out the ones you feel are ready to move on, and then add new ones to top off your level in the coarse grind. When I am culling rocks, I do a complete clean/rinse of the batch so I can inspect them, add the new rocks and old rocks that are staying, and start again with fresh grit. Put aside the rocks that you pulled out and simply wait until you have enough for that next step. You'll only be doing the cull and replace at the first step. In subsequent steps, the entire batch moves along. Doing this, you end up with kind of a perpetual first step. Good luck. Dave
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lancemountain
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 214
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Post by lancemountain on Mar 24, 2017 23:29:40 GMT -5
Thanks Dave- very helpful. I think as a starter to this hobby I will stick with harder rocks in the 7 range until I really get a hang of it all. I do have a barrel of Sodalite in now that I will peek at Sunday
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Mar 25, 2017 15:44:44 GMT -5
lancemountain the 220 will shape/smooth/round most all rocks mohs 4 and will do the same for many in the mohs 5 range and a few in the mohs 6.
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