eston
off to a rocking start
Member since October 2017
Posts: 1
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Post by eston on Dec 22, 2017 10:08:09 GMT -5
I’m curious if anyone else has problems with a CabKing 220# wheel. I’ve had my CabKing for about a month and have noticed that the 220# wheel is leaving deep scratches that are virtually impossible to remove with the 280# wheel. In fact I get better results going from the 80# straight to the 280# and bypassing the 220#. I’ve been able to get a beautiful finish only by using the 360# full face lap prior to the 280#. I called CabKing and described the issue and they sent a new 220# wheel but it is performing exactly the same way. In my last communication with them, the inference was that it was a technique problem and that their wheels performed well at the factory. I’ve attached a photo showing a test rock comparing the 80# finish with the 220#. The finish on the 80# feels smoother than the 220. This is my first venture into cabbing so I’m more than willing to take responsibility for the issue. Please advise Oh Wise Ones.....
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Post by Peruano on Dec 22, 2017 10:28:13 GMT -5
Wow!All of you scratches are parallel meaning you possibly not changing the orientation of the stone relative to the wheel. I'd get an experienced cabbed to look over your shoulder. Potentially it's technique as suspected. Keep that stone moving and rotate it relative to wheel nearly constantly.
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Post by Bluesky78987 on Dec 22, 2017 11:00:21 GMT -5
When I got mine, it had one big giant diamond on it, and it was doing something like that. You could feel the diamond on there - just a big ole lump. Could have been from somebody's diamond ring that fell off at the factory, who knows? lol. Anyway, I took a hammer and smashed that one diamond by tapping gently, and it was fixed. If you can feel it with your fingers, that might be a solution. Also, Genie wheels fit on the Cab King I found out, so there are always options.
Edit: I don't suppose it's possible also that they labeled the wheels wrong? So the one you think is the 220 is really the 80? They did put the directional arrow the wrong way on one of mine. I don't put much stock in their "you must be doing it wrong" answer. I've had a recurring problem of mine (too long to describe) and they've always just kind of shrugged and said "It should be working, dunno".
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Post by rmf on Dec 25, 2017 5:06:14 GMT -5
Even though this is a good pick of the scratches it would help if there was a pic of the scratches from the 80 grit wheel on the same material so we can see side by side at the same scale. Sometimes remote diagnostics is an issue. My guess is (as previously stated) they may have swapped position with the 80 and the 220 when building the machine. Or it is also possible that the 220 is mislabeled and is actually a larger grit.
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Post by rockjunquie on Dec 25, 2017 7:26:12 GMT -5
If I were to photograph my scratches, I think you would see that they are much more uniform. Some of your scratches do look deeper to me. But, it is true that it could be technique. You should see scratches going in all directions. I suspect, though, that they don't grade the diamonds well enough. When I first started, I spent more time on the 80 than the 220. So, when I went to the 220, some of the 80 leftover scratches were still there. Try spending less on 80 and more on 220. Those leftover scratches don't really show up well until you hit the 280.
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Tommy
Administrator
Member since January 2013
Posts: 12,594
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Post by Tommy on Dec 25, 2017 10:31:27 GMT -5
Since the wheel was replaced already I think it's fair to assume that you really do have have a 220. So then it does become about the technique. For hard agate I start on the 80 but my goal is (like rockjunquie said) to get off the 80 as soon as possible. Shape the dome, shape the girdle (everyone does it a little differently) then move to the 220. The 220 is NOT a polishing wheel - its a grinding wheel with the basic function is to finish what you started on the 80. Basically just re-create on the 220 what you already did on the 80 - go over every inch of surface removing all of the flat spots and get it ready to work on scratches. In those early stages I stop and dry the stone a lot and circle flat spots or bad areas with an aluminum scribe - often I scribble aluminum across the whole surface just to make sure I've covered it all with the 220. At this point your dome needs to be perfectly shaped. Many many scratch problems down the line can be cured right here with a perfect dome. When you view it from the side it should be a continuous rise and fall of a dome. If you look at the attachment image - the top shape is a perfect dome from ALL angles. If it's a elongated cab you should see this from each side view AND each end view. If you see a flat top like the image on the bottom, this will give you all kinds of problems with scratches now and later. If you have done the above and are sure your dome is perfect then move on to the 280 soft wheel and start working the scratches out. Dry the stone off frequently and work on specific trouble spots as needed. Go up to the 600 for a while, dry it check it, go back and forth to the 280 as needed. Many people go down a grit step between hard and soft wheels - ie: 80, 220, 140(soft), 280(soft). Hope some of this helped?
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Post by glennz01 on Dec 25, 2017 15:15:35 GMT -5
my current wheel setup goes 80 hard then 220 foct and continuous. i also had the same problem as you but i felt as if my 280 was a 500 as i could get a polish on that stage.
ill be getting a new set of aggressive wheels soon that a friend swars by and says is better and faster than diamond pacific novas and has made more cabs than i an still using after 2 years
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,455
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 25, 2017 18:02:44 GMT -5
OK, I'm far from the greatest cabber but I have gotten 220 wheels that are pretty coarse until they are well broken in and Ive gotten ones that are much more uniform. I actually do most my dome cutting on he 220 so always make sure it's well broken in before I do a lot of doming as I too have a heck of a time getting out those scratches on that first soft wheel. I also try to use a very light touch and always keep the cab moving on that 220 wheel. And here we have the exact reason I hate cabbing *L*. The entire process is just too dang slow and life is way too short....Mel
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Post by rmf on Dec 25, 2017 21:08:29 GMT -5
I have been using Diamond Pacific wheels and have not had to breakin the metal bonded wheels. However I have added a 220 grit nova wheel after my 220 grit metal bonded wheel to slow the ware on the 280 grit Nova wheel. It works great but the down side is you have to have the extra grinders to support it or you have to change the wheels out.
Who makes the wheels on the CabKing?
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cobbledstones
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2014
Posts: 482
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Post by cobbledstones on Dec 25, 2017 23:36:37 GMT -5
I have the same problems going from the hard wheels to the soft wheels. That transition is why i don't finish a lot of cabs. I am working to improve technique, but in the meantime I have 2 workarounds:
80 hard-->100 sic on expando-->vib tumbler (my preference, material dependant)
or
80 hard-->100 sic expando-->300 sic-->280 soft-->rest of grit progression
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QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,605
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Post by QuailRiver on Dec 26, 2017 9:24:10 GMT -5
Back in the mid 1970s when I first made the switch from silicon carbide to diamond, manmade diamond products were still fairly new to the hobby market and were expensive as all get-out. There was a big leap in price from the medium and finer grit diamond products to the coarse 100 or 80 grit wheels due to the extra time/expense of growing larger industrial diamond crystals at the limited production facilities of that time. So most hobbyists using diamond (at least in our area) started grinding with a 180 grit hard wheel for roughing and a 360 grit hard wheel for final shaping. Then began the sanding process with 600 grit diamond on a belt/expando wheel. With that set-up we spent a lot more time in the preforming stage than is necessary with today's common 80 grit/ 220 grit hard wheel set up. But...we spent a lot less time sanding out coarse scratches.
I stuck with that lineup until about seven years ago when I switched to 80gt sintered, followed by 220gt sintered, but also kept a 360 grit plated Crystalring mounted in the lineup to cut down on sanding time. And due to the falling quality of the diamond cloth belts I was using, I also switched to NOVA soft wheels for sanding and do the final polish with oxides.
As it turned out, the sintered diamond wheels do not cut as aggressively as plated wheels of the same grit. So with the sintered 220 cutting less aggressively than the former 220 plated wheel, the 360 Crystalring doesn't get as much use as it used to but is still handy to have for a cab with stubborn scratches before using the 600 wheel. Or when cutting a softer material where a 600 grit soft wheel is appropriate for the first stage of sanding.
I wish Diamond Pacific would make a 400 grit NOVA to bridge the gap between their 260 and 600 grit NOVA wheels. If they did then IMO an 80/220/360 plated wheel line up followed by a 400gt NOVA soft wheel would be ideal. And if I had it to do over again I would have ordered 60/180 grit sintered wheels instead of 80/220.
Since there is only room for about 6 wheels total on a Genie, Titan, or Cab King unit, IMO the time saved by being able to have a couple of extra steps in the cabbing process is worth having an additional dual arbor or two.
Larry C.
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Post by rmf on Dec 26, 2017 14:56:34 GMT -5
Back in the mid 1970s when I first made the switch from silicon carbide to diamond, manmade diamond products were still fairly new to the hobby market and were expensive as all get-out. There was a big leap in price from the medium and finer grit diamond products to the coarse 100 or 80 grit wheels due to the extra time/expense of growing larger industrial diamond crystals at the limited production facilities of that time. So most hobbyists using diamond (at least in our area) started grinding with a 180 grit hard wheel for roughing and a 360 grit hard wheel for final shaping. Then began the sanding process with 600 grit diamond on a belt/expando wheel. With that set-up we spent a lot more time in the preforming stage than is necessary with today's common 80 grit/ 220 grit hard wheel set up. But...we spent a lot less time sanding out coarse scratches. I stuck with that lineup until about seven years ago when I switched to 80gt sintered, followed by 220gt sintered, but also kept a 360 grit plated Crystalring mounted in the lineup to cut down on sanding time. And due to the falling quality of the diamond cloth belts I was using, I also switched to NOVA soft wheels for sanding and do the final polish with oxides. As it turned out, the sintered diamond wheels do not cut as aggressively as plated wheels of the same grit. So with the sintered 220 cutting less aggressively than the former 220 plated wheel, the 360 Crystalring doesn't get as much use as it used to but is still handy to have for a cab with stubborn scratches before using the 600 wheel. Or when cutting a softer material where a 600 grit soft wheel is appropriate for the first stage of sanding. I wish Diamond Pacific would make a 400 grit NOVA to bridge the gap between their 260 and 600 grit NOVA wheels. If they did then IMO an 80/220/360 plated wheel line up followed by a 400gt NOVA soft wheel would be ideal. And if I had it to do over again I would have ordered 60/180 grit sintered wheels instead of 80/220. Since there is only room for about 6 wheels total on a Genie, Titan, or Cab King unit, IMO the time saved by being able to have a couple of extra steps in the cabbing process is worth having an additional dual arbor or two. You need to contact diamond pacific and see if they can make you a 400 grit Nova wheel. The 220 grit Nova wheel is a special order. So they may do other grits as well... nothing ventured nothing gained. the worst they can say is no.
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QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,605
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Post by QuailRiver on Dec 26, 2017 18:13:39 GMT -5
rmfThank you for the reply. DP might be willing to do custom grits but I doubt they would for just one or two wheels without having to charge considerably more than for a larger number. @all Just for clarity's sake, the last paragraph shown in rmf's quoting of my post above stating: "You need to contact diamond pacific and see if they can make you a 400 grit Nova wheel. The 220 grit Nova wheel is a special order. So they may do other grits as well... nothing ventured nothing gained. the worst they can say is no." was rmf's reply to my post which they mistakenly edited into the text of my post when quoting. This was not part of my response to the OP. Larry C.
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Post by taylor on Dec 26, 2017 22:15:52 GMT -5
Not sure that I qualify as wise, but here is my experience. We bought a new CabKing about two years ago. The 80# was very aggressive--I rarely start doming there. I usually begin doming on the 220#. We did have start up issues with the 1200# and 3000# wheels. The 3000# wheel caused horrific vibrations/noise on start up. Visual inspection of wheel showed very uneven distribution of the binding media. The 1200# wheel had one spot right in the middle of the wheel like Bluesky78987 described. We called the supplier, they sent replacement wheels, issues solved. After using the 80# wheel for two years for preforming it is now broken in well enough that when I am in a hurry to finish a very hard cab I will start doming there.
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Post by rockjunquie on Dec 26, 2017 22:44:43 GMT -5
I have a 220 nova that I bought on eBay. I will NEVER go back to the 280.
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Tommy
Administrator
Member since January 2013
Posts: 12,594
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Post by Tommy on Dec 26, 2017 23:19:27 GMT -5
@all Just for clarity's sake, the last paragraph shown in rmf's quoting of my post above stating: "You need to contact diamond pacific and see if they can make you a 400 grit Nova wheel. The 220 grit Nova wheel is a special order. So they may do other grits as well... nothing ventured nothing gained. the worst they can say is no." was rmf's reply to my post which they mistakenly edited into the text of my post when quoting. This was not part of my response to the OP. Yeah that was a bit confusing - I fixed for y'all. 400 grit would be good - They make 400 grit belts for the 8" expando wheel - I switch between 400 and 600 a lot when the expando in use. Tommy
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Post by Bluesky78987 on Dec 26, 2017 23:40:12 GMT -5
Not sure that I qualify as wise, but here is my experience. We bought a new CabKing about two years ago. The 80# was very aggressive--I rarely start doming there. I usually begin doming on the 220#. We did have start up issues with the 1200# and 3000# wheels. The 3000# wheel caused horrific vibrations/noise on start up. Visual inspection of wheel showed very uneven distribution of the binding media. The 1200# wheel had one spot right in the middle of the wheel like Bluesky78987 described. We called the supplier, they sent replacement wheels, issues solved. After using the 80# wheel for two years for preforming it is now broken in well enough that when I am in a hurry to finish a very hard cab I will start doming there. Yeah, I don't dome on the 80 grit anymore. I dome on the 220. Seems like it cuts faster anyway. I installed a Diamond Pacific 229 nova wheel (soft wheel, but not an expando) on my Cab King and it seems to be working great, but it's too early to tell quite yet. Thanks to rockjunquie for the info on that.
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