NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 8, 2019 14:35:25 GMT -5
So, I recently purchased a Vibratory tumbler (MT-4) and this is my first set of results with it. This is my second actual Batch of rocks. My first was done in a Rotary at considerably longer duration. But, that does not mean these turned out better. I don't think they did. And that is on me. I've consulted some experts here and I have determined that I made mistakes along the way. So, next Batch I will only run with proven technique. I was going for the "wet" look. I know, I know. I bet some are thinking ".. hey, those look just like the ones I pulled out of Lake Michigan! ... before I started polishing them, that is ..". Well, I didn't fancy them up any. Well, I kind of faced them on their better side. But, no trick photography here, gang. Just the real deal. Here are some small ones. They are cute. Well, in all fairness, I orders some AO polish from a quality vendor, but my supplies were sent to the other side of the continent it appears instead. So, I am still waiting on actual polish. Some times I think I am almost performing an RTH community service by posting. Not only do I give beginners hope, I also am stark contrast to the veterans, who consistently turn out museum quality polished stones. My next batch will improve! For sure the next one will be better. P.S. I would just like to thank those, such as Dave, Rob, and Chuck for their fantastic coaching along the way, helping me out with the many questions, and problems I've encountered during this batch. They have given me priceless suggestions on methods I can use for improvement. Thanks guys! You make this RTH forum a better place for everyone.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 8, 2019 15:12:37 GMT -5
Some of them look decent. When you say that you don’t have polish, do you mean that these didn’t go through polish at all or that you used a polish of questionable quality?
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Post by aDave on Mar 8, 2019 16:10:44 GMT -5
Some of them look decent. When you say that you don’t have polish, do you mean that these didn’t go through polish at all or that you used a polish of questionable quality? That's exactly what I was going to ask. I seem to recall his first batch was only run through 1200. I'm thinking Bill is still waiting on his polish order. Just out of curiousity NevadaBill, how were the stages run in terms of time and grit used for each stage, starting from the beginning? One thing I can note is that when compared to your very first batch, these, in comparison, have shaped better. Sometimes this stuff comes in baby steps or even two steps forward and one step back. And, don't forget that self-collected material can be a crap shoot if you're newly dealing with it. Some rock turns out great, and some...well, not so great. Oh yeah, if you didn't run these in polish, set them aside and put them through that stage when the AO arrives.
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Post by nowyo on Mar 8, 2019 20:11:21 GMT -5
Ha, I was going to ask about the polish as well. Can't comment on the vibe deal since I ve never used one. Some nice looking rocks there. Learning curv to everything.
Russ
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 9, 2019 9:44:04 GMT -5
Some of them look decent. When you say that you don’t have polish, do you mean that these didn’t go through polish at all or that you used a polish of questionable quality? Thanks for the nice words Rob. If you like a couple of them, then I feel better about the whole lot. [Edit] - No polish stage at all. Just some AO 1200 + Borax for 3-4 days.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 9, 2019 10:00:06 GMT -5
Some of them look decent. When you say that you don’t have polish, do you mean that these didn’t go through polish at all or that you used a polish of questionable quality? That's exactly what I was going to ask. I seem to recall his first batch was only run through 1200. I'm thinking Bill is still waiting on his polish order. Just out of curiousity NevadaBill , how were the stages run in terms of time and grit used for each stage, starting from the beginning? One thing I can note is that when compared to your very first batch, these, in comparison, have shaped better. Sometimes this stuff comes in baby steps or even two steps forward and one step back. And, don't forget that self-collected material can be a crap shoot if you're newly dealing with it. Some rock turns out great, and some...well, not so great. Oh yeah, if you didn't run these in polish, set them aside and put them through that stage when the AO arrives. Thanks Dave. And thank you both for all the help too. Yep, polish was ordered several weeks ago. It's just taking the long way to get here is all. No worries. I cleaned them all well, and there isn't much 1200 grit stuck in cracks. Much. - All rocks are 6-7 hardness. Not all exactly the same, but close - I use about 25%-30% mixed tumbling media (cylinder style) for every stage - I clean all rocks with a tooth brush individually after a grit stage. So, when going from 120/220 --> 500/600, I clean all rocks completely - I have a different barrel for each stage. One for 120/220, another for 500/600, and another for 1200. (I have one on the way for 14400) - I ran 120/220 for 2 days, cleaning / recharging every 24 hours.. 2 TBLS of SiC 120/220. On 40% speed. - I ran 500/600 for 3 days, cleaning / recharging every 24 hours.. 1 TSP of AO 500/600, and 1 TBLS of Borax. On 40% speed. - I ran 1200 for 2 days, cleaning / recharging every 24 hours. 1 TSP of AO 1200, and 1 TBLS of Borax. On 40% speedThen I panicked, because I wasn't seeing results. - I ran 1200 for 2 days, cleaning / recharging every 24 hours. 1 TBLS of AO 1200. 2 TSP of Borax. On 50% day 1. On 70% day 2. Still not seeing what I wanted. I panicked more. - I ran 1200 for 3 days, NOT cleaning / recharging at all. 1 TEA AO 1200. 1 TBLS of Borax. On 90% speed the whole time. Boy is this thing loud on 90% speed! But I was also told I was doing it wrong. I was told to run it at 90% speed the whole time. I was also informed that re-charging the grit every 24 hours was a mistake, and I should not have every re-charged during a stage. Lessons learned. Hope this helps. I also don't believe that I can treat my Vibratory tumbler like an Lott-O. They are totally different. Next time I will treat them different. But it won't be for a little while. I picked up another QT-6 (yes that makes 4 tumblers in only 3 months, ugh), and I will Rotary a batch simultaneously with the Vibe. I will compare after 2-3 weeks time. I want to get an honest comparison. I spent a TON of time baby sitting the Vibe, and honestly, life is too busy for me to be doing that I think. Just too much going on. It's kind of like having an infant, with Borax going through it, gumming things up all the time.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 9, 2019 10:01:33 GMT -5
Ha, I was going to ask about the polish as well. Can't comment on the vibe deal since I ve never used one. Some nice looking rocks there. Learning curv to everything. Russ Thanks Russ. I am not afraid to post my results here. I realize it's not the cats meow, but well, someday I will produce very nice rocks. Someday ...
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Post by aDave on Mar 9, 2019 19:14:59 GMT -5
- I ran 120/220 for 2 days, cleaning / recharging every 24 hours.. 2 TBLS of SiC 120/220. On 40% speed. - I ran 500/600 for 3 days, cleaning / recharging every 24 hours.. 1 TSP of AO 500/600, and 1 TBLS of Borax. On 40% speed. - I ran 1200 for 2 days, cleaning / recharging every 24 hours. 1 TSP of AO 1200, and 1 TBLS of Borax. On 40% speed<Snip!> I spent a TON of time baby sitting the Vibe, and honestly, life is too busy for me to be doing that I think. Just too much going on. It's kind of like having an infant, with Borax going through it, gumming things up all the time. I'm clearly not a vibe expert, but when I saw you were recharging during the stages, I thought, "aha...that can't be helping too much," as you were basically undoing what you had accomplished in the previous 24 hours. So, in essence, you really only ran those stages for 24 hours instead of the 2 or 3 days. But, I'm glad you already heard from someone about that. Babysitting a vibe, the Lot-O specifically, was probably one of the main reasons I didn't grab one sooner. However, other than curiosity about what's going on in the barrel, I'm learning that I don't have to hover over the thing like I thought I would have to. If you're getting stuff gummed up, maybe cut back on your Borax. I've found with the temperament of my vibe, it didn't like 1 Tbsp. For me, it's looking like 2 Tsp is what it likes. I'll know better tomorrow when I complete and pull a batch, but it's looking good so far. Good luck.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 9, 2019 23:30:14 GMT -5
It sounds like you have a good grasp on the Vibe already Dave.
That is a good suggestion on cutting back on the Borax, thus reducing the attention the bowl needs.
I tried both cutting corners and not following directions so far. And both of those got me in trouble. I need to establish a working standard first before I can deviate from it. Eventually I'll figure it out.
Plus, I will hit those mutts with some AO polish once it comes in.
Thanks again for the helpful hints!
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tomg
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2019
Posts: 103
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Post by tomg on Mar 9, 2019 23:52:03 GMT -5
Bill, I just picked up a used MT-4 and fired it up Thursday evening. Does yours move the rocks up the sides and down the middle like they say it should? Mine just works in a rotary motion regardless of the speed or the amount of water.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 10, 2019 10:57:03 GMT -5
Hey Bill, I have no experience with the MT-4, but I have done a complete batch from beginning to end in my Lot-O (no rotary). It’s a good idea to recharge every day when you’re doing the 120/220 stage, but not the others. Have you seen my thread on tumbling completely in the vibe?
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Post by TheRock on Mar 11, 2019 2:04:18 GMT -5
Looks Good Bill.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 18, 2019 10:53:59 GMT -5
Bill, I just picked up a used MT-4 and fired it up Thursday evening. Does yours move the rocks up the sides and down the middle like they say it should? Mine just works in a rotary motion regardless of the speed or the amount of water. Hi Tom, and sorry I didn't see your question earlier. Mine does not move rocks the way they say it should. And I have run it in all possible conditions (way too watered down all the way to frozen solid from no water). It has never moved rocks from the both sides to the middle. Always just like this: Here is a short video: I have run it half full, and it sort of did the same thing. I have also run it more full than this video, just to the top of the bowl, and it still worked this way. Any speed, also has it work the same way. Best of luck with yours. I am still trying to get mine dialed in. I have only had it 3-4 weeks though.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 18, 2019 11:04:14 GMT -5
Hey Bill, I have no experience with the MT-4, but I have done a complete batch from beginning to end in my Lot-O (no rotary). It’s a good idea to recharge every day when you’re doing the 120/220 stage, but not the others. Have you seen my thread on tumbling completely in the vibe? Hi Rob, I made mistakes and carried over the Stage 2 recharge to the other Stage 3 and Stage 4, before finding out that I should not be recharging every single day. So, it was a detail which I had missed for this batch. An error. And I didn't go back and start over. I can tell you after only a few weeks with the Vibe, that there are dozens of small details which can easily be overlooked. And every batch seems to have a character of its own too. Once I have more experience with the little guy, I believe that things will become second nature to me, and I will probably be able to perform the whole operation in my sleep. Until then, I need to spend a few months establishing a standard. And trial and error, I believe, will be part of this process. Thank you again. Your instructions have been key for me.
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agatemaggot
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
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Post by agatemaggot on Mar 18, 2019 11:41:01 GMT -5
With out a center post to separate the rocks I can't see how the rocks could divide and move up each side to the middle of the bowl ! Your machine is moving the rocks very well and REALLY vibrating as it should. Round bowl machines roll rocks up the sides to the middle but I don't believe yours is designed to do that. Your machine polishes by the weight of the top stones pushing the bottom stones together and the vibration makes the grit grind. That video you posted looks like you have everything absolutely perfect !
Yer doing good, run em !
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 21, 2019 15:25:25 GMT -5
With out a center post to separate the rocks I can't see how the rocks could divide and move up each side to the middle of the bowl ! Your machine is moving the rocks very well and REALLY vibrating as it should. Round bowl machines roll rocks up the sides to the middle but I don't believe yours is designed to do that. Your machine polishes by the weight of the top stones pushing the bottom stones together and the vibration makes the grit grind. That video you posted looks like you have everything absolutely perfect ! Yer doing good, run em ! Thanks AM, I am thinking that (most of the time) I have the slurry looking like most of the good Lott-O videos that people have shared with me. In that respect, I am encouraged. I did have an early misfire though by adding WAY too much water on my very first run. I can say with certainty (based on reading) that the action of grit adhering to the rocks is not nearly close to the Lott-O though. I have been using a ingredient recipe which mirrors the Lott-O however. And will continue to experiment with that recipe, trying next time to follow to the letter. Currently I am deviating completely from all advice for the current batch though. I have the first edition of a book which was written by the inventor of the MT-4, in my hands now. And it is a very big departure from all of the other books I have read. There aren't even any pictures in the book. An Edward E. Smith is the author. I figure the inventor of the device might have a few important opinions about how it should run. After reading it, I have decided to give Edwards instructions a try. We will see how it stacks up to (this) batch after the AO 1200 (yes, I will even run the AO 1200 through it) has gone through it. At least then I will have a comparison. This is not a Lott-O. I will give it my best shot to produce as well as the Lott-O though. My AO polish [Edit] (The Rock Shed) has arrived now, and I can't wait to see what rocks look like after some actual Polish hits it! Actually, I think I will run both of my first two batches through Polish stage to see how they look. Can't wait.
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agatemaggot
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
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Post by agatemaggot on Mar 21, 2019 22:17:28 GMT -5
I rinse my rock in a sifter and then let them drain until the water stops dripping (not completely ) then put in vibe and (trickle) antibacterial dish soap on the load while running, don't go crazy it doesn't take a whole bunch. After the rock is coated all over in a couple minutes time I slowly add the recommended amount of grit. After adding grit slowly, the movement in barrel has slowed way down so I spritz with water until action returns to normal. I never measure anything but the grit because each load is different and you have to play it by ear more or less. All loads are not the same weight and a little more or less grit doesn't seem to really account to anything but a couple cents per load. The only thing to worry about is moisture in the barrel, you need to check rock movement every so often which will vary by Machine. Every 12 - 24 hours, after so many loads you will learn when it will be gettin thirsty.
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tomg
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2019
Posts: 103
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Post by tomg on Mar 22, 2019 18:51:10 GMT -5
Bill, I just picked up a used MT-4 and fired it up Thursday evening. Does yours move the rocks up the sides and down the middle like they say it should? Mine just works in a rotary motion regardless of the speed or the amount of water. Hi Tom, and sorry I didn't see your question earlier. Mine does not move rocks the way they say it should. And I have run it in all possible conditions (way too watered down all the way to frozen solid from no water). It has never moved rocks from the both sides to the middle. Always just like this: Here is a short video: I have run it half full, and it sort of did the same thing. I have also run it more full than this video, just to the top of the bowl, and it still worked this way. Any speed, also has it work the same way. Best of luck with yours. I am still trying to get mine dialed in. I have only had it 3-4 weeks though. Thanks Bill. That is exactly what I needed to see, mine runs the same. Tom
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 24, 2019 9:55:44 GMT -5
I rinse my rock in a sifter and then let them drain until the water stops dripping (not completely ) then put in vibe and (trickle) antibacterial dish soap on the load while running, don't go crazy it doesn't take a whole bunch. After the rock is coated all over in a couple minutes time I slowly add the recommended amount of grit. After adding grit slowly, the movement in barrel has slowed way down so I spritz with water until action returns to normal. I never measure anything but the grit because each load is different and you have to play it by ear more or less. All loads are not the same weight and a little more or less grit doesn't seem to really account to anything but a couple cents per load. The only thing to worry about is moisture in the barrel, you need to check rock movement every so often which will vary by Machine. Every 12 - 24 hours, after so many loads you will learn when it will be gettin thirsty. Thanks AM. That is all really solid advice. I think everyone reading could benefit from your advice here. The anti-bacterial soap is interesting. If you had to guess, how much exactly is the amount "don't go crazy it doesn't take a whole bunch"? Are you just looking for all rocks to get a little coated? Can you tell? When loading the barrel, I was taught a method that works really well for me. A perfect video of this was created by RTH member Jugglerguy, which can be found here: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/86480/video-using-polish-shaped-rocksI would advice everyone to check it out!
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agatemaggot
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
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Post by agatemaggot on Mar 24, 2019 15:04:00 GMT -5
I ( trickle ) with a squeeze bottle just squeezing hard enough to get it to come out like a THIN thread, the rock will slow down when it is coated with the soap because the coating of soap will make the stones wring (hang) together, it don't take much soap to do this, add a little until you see it happen. Do NOT worry about how many drops or weight because you will (SEE) how much is enough by the rock movement. Each lode of rock is going to be different in weight , you measure the (how much ) by rock movement and your eye ! The Anti-bacterial soap does 2 things, it holds the slowly added grit in place on the stone and starts the grinding immediately and the soap also stops the gas buildup from bacteria.
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