|
Post by gmitch067 on Mar 19, 2019 0:28:26 GMT -5
I have been surfing YouTube for videos on how to silver solder. One area that confuses me relates to the use of Borax and water as a flux when preforming silver or gold soldering:
(At The Bench video with Andrew Berry… starts to talk about fluxes around 8:30 into the video)
Another video from Rio Grande notes how borax can be used to keep solder from flowing outside the area to be joined by coating the area(s) with borax and alcohol… and then burning off the alcohol to leave a borax powder behind (then use Handyflux instead of borax. See around 1:10 minutes into video):
I must be missing something here…This seems contradictory?? It seems that the borax would cause the silver solder to flow across the piece instead of preventing the spread.
Another point of confusion is WHICH borax to use… borax cone, industrial strength borax powder, or 21 Mule Team Borax (which I already use in my vibe?? I thought they were all the same sodiumtetraborate)
Note: I have a couple spools of woven stainless steel chain that I need to cut to size and secure end caps onto (with holes for jump rings). I wanted to include a chain with the pendants I am making as gifts). I have been met with poor results when using epoxy... thought I would try to solder the ends onto the chain... so far... not very good results... still trying... thinking it might be the flux is not right for stainless steel to end-cap bonding/flow of the silver solder.
|
|
|
Post by toiv0 on Mar 19, 2019 8:49:52 GMT -5
Boric acid which you use mixed with denatured alcohol for a coating to prevent fire scale and Borax for flux are two different things. Most fluxes are borax based mixed with other things to aid the flow of the silver solder. Here is a good discussion on the Ganoksin site that will add some insight and maybe confuse you a little more. The Ganoksin site is a valuable tool. orchid.ganoksin.com/t/boric-acid-vs-borax/20441/12
|
|
|
Post by Pat on Mar 19, 2019 9:48:45 GMT -5
Andrew Berry is good. Rio just covers the subject surface. Soham Harrison is excellent. Orchid.ganoksin.com as toiv0 mentions is also excellent. For very basic details, see Online Jewelry Academy with Professor John Ahr. Very good. www.onlinejewelryacademy.com/videos.html
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Mar 19, 2019 10:54:42 GMT -5
Boric acid which you use mixed with denatured alcohol for a coating to prevent fire scale and Borax for flux are two different things. Most fluxes are borax based mixed with other things to aid the flow of the silver solder. Here is a good discussion on the Ganoksin site that will add some insight and maybe confuse you a little more. The Ganoksin site is a valuable tool. orchid.ganoksin.com/t/boric-acid-vs-borax/20441/12Excellent thread on the Ganokain site toiv0! I went through the whole thread... a bit complex in the chemistry, and it went way over my head in understanding... back to Chem 101 for me! For my general silver soldering (on stainless steel woven chain), is it OK to use 21 Mule Team Borax to create either a fire-coat or a flux?
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Mar 19, 2019 10:58:26 GMT -5
Andrew Berry is good. Rio just covers the subject surface. Soham Harrison is excellent. Orchid.ganoksin.com as toiv0 mentions is also excellent. For very basic details, see Online Jewelry Academy with Professor John Ahr. Very good. www.onlinejewelryacademy.com/videos.htmlThank you PatI just checked out the Online Jewelry Academy and added the link to my bookmarks. It looks like there a number of interesting videos there which interest me. Thanks again!
|
|
|
Post by opalpyrexia on Mar 19, 2019 14:35:20 GMT -5
Here's the recipe for Prips (or Prips flux) for helping to prevent firestain —
1 liter of water, boiling 120 grams boric acid 80 grams borax 80 grams TSP (needs to be actual TSP; hard to find these days)
To use, heat the silver and spray Prips in short bursts so that it dries on contact. Cover the entire piece, especially around the soldering area. It's not a substitute for flux. (Multiply those numbers by 1.9 for 1/2 gallon of water.)
I'm out of TSP now, so I'll have to get some the next time I need more Prips. I'm fortunate in that there's a chemical distributor about an hour's drive from me.
|
|
|
Post by vegasjames on Mar 19, 2019 16:12:39 GMT -5
Here's the recipe for Prips (or Prips flux) for helping to prevent firestain — 1 liter of water, boiling 120 grams boric acid 80 grams borax 80 grams TSP (needs to be actual TSP; hard to find these days) To use, heat the silver and spray Prips in short bursts so that it dries on contact. Cover the entire piece, especially around the soldering area. It's not a substitute for flux. (Multiply those numbers by 1.9 for 1/2 gallon of water.) I'm out of TSP now, so I'll have to get some the next time I need more Prips. I'm fortunate in that there's a chemical distributor about an hour's drive from me. You can find TSP online. I bought 10 pounds a year ago or so. Think I found it on Ebay.
|
|
|
Post by opalpyrexia on Mar 19, 2019 17:13:57 GMT -5
You can find TSP online. I bought 10 pounds a year ago or so. Think I found it on Ebay.
Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. Considering time and gas that sounds like a good option. I just checked and currently there are two parties selling 10 pounds for $28.
|
|
|
Post by parfive on Mar 20, 2019 0:49:17 GMT -5
Any paint store/supply house should have it. Local hardware store too.
|
|
|
Post by hummingbirdstones on Mar 20, 2019 9:29:28 GMT -5
I found TSP at Home Depot here. I guess it depends on state regs if you can find it on shelves or not.
|
|
|
Post by opalpyrexia on Mar 20, 2019 10:13:29 GMT -5
Any paint store/supply house should have it. Local hardware store too. I found TSP at Home Depot here. I guess it depends on state regs if you can find it on shelves or not. That might be the case, or I might be wrong. I know that the last time I looked for it in our local Ace Hardware I found boxes labeled TSP, but they weren't TSP. The finer print may have even stated "Phosphate Free". I don't recall the specifics but I didn't purchase it because I was not convinced that it was TSP, or 100% TSP. I walked out believing it to be a TSP substitute.
|
|
|
Post by hummingbirdstones on Mar 20, 2019 10:39:57 GMT -5
Any paint store/supply house should have it. Local hardware store too. I found TSP at Home Depot here. I guess it depends on state regs if you can find it on shelves or not. That might be the case, or I might be wrong. I know that the last time I looked for it in our local Ace Hardware I found boxes labeled TSP, but they weren't TSP. The finer print may have even stated "Phosphate Free". I don't recall the specifics but I didn't purchase it because I was not convinced that it was TSP, or 100% TSP. I walked out believing it to be a TSP substitute.
They do make a substitute that they still call TSP. You have to read the the fine print. The box I bought is made by Savogran and says Trisodium Phosphate in large letters on the top. It has 6.1% phosphate in it.
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Mar 20, 2019 10:54:37 GMT -5
Here's the recipe for Prips (or Prips flux) for helping to prevent firestain — 1 liter of water, boiling 120 grams boric acid 80 grams borax 80 grams TSP (needs to be actual TSP; hard to find these days) To use, heat the silver and spray Prips in short bursts so that it dries on contact. Cover the entire piece, especially around the soldering area. It's not a substitute for flux. (Multiply those numbers by 1.9 for 1/2 gallon of water.) I'm out of TSP now, so I'll have to get some the next time I need more Prips. I'm fortunate in that there's a chemical distributor about an hour's drive from me. Thank you opalpyrexiaOnce again... confusion... (my alternate state of existence lol!) First... I am told that flux is necessary to promote a good bond by allowing the solder to flow (and facilitate solder flow between to dissimilar metals). Then... I am told that a flux prevents firestain and stops flow to other areas of the work piece. (just like my original question about borax... except I still don't know if the 20 Mule Team Borax I use for tumbling is the same as the industrial strength stuff...) Flux must be truly magical! Does the Prips come in smaller quantities commercially? My need is rather small... I am doing this as a hobby... not a business... so I don't need allot.
|
|
|
Post by parfive on Mar 20, 2019 11:29:33 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by greig on Mar 20, 2019 11:37:04 GMT -5
I bet you all regret not paying more attention in Chemistry class. I certainly do. That is good info on TSP. I had no idea they would substitute the P with something else and still call it the same thing. They did the same thing with Canadian Roundup. ;-)
|
|
|
Post by hummingbirdstones on Mar 20, 2019 11:46:34 GMT -5
Here's the recipe for Prips (or Prips flux) for helping to prevent firestain — 1 liter of water, boiling 120 grams boric acid 80 grams borax 80 grams TSP (needs to be actual TSP; hard to find these days) To use, heat the silver and spray Prips in short bursts so that it dries on contact. Cover the entire piece, especially around the soldering area. It's not a substitute for flux. (Multiply those numbers by 1.9 for 1/2 gallon of water.) I'm out of TSP now, so I'll have to get some the next time I need more Prips. I'm fortunate in that there's a chemical distributor about an hour's drive from me. Thank you opalpyrexia Once again... confusion... (my alternate state of existence lol!) First... I am told that flux is necessary to promote a good bond by allowing the solder to flow (and facilitate solder flow between to dissimilar metals). Then... I am told that a flux prevents firestain and stops flow to other areas of the work piece. (just like my original question about borax... except I still don't know if the 20 Mule Team Borax I use for tumbling is the same as the industrial strength stuff...) Flux must be truly magical! Does the Prips come in smaller quantities commercially? My need is rather small... I am doing this as a hobby... not a business... so I don't need allot.
|
|
|
Post by opalpyrexia on Mar 20, 2019 12:09:57 GMT -5
Once again... confusion... (my alternate state of existence lol!) First... I am told that flux is necessary to promote a good bond by allowing the solder to flow (and facilitate solder flow between to dissimilar metals). Then... I am told that a flux prevents firestain and stops flow to other areas of the work piece.
It is confusing. Prips should not be called a flux. Its purpose is to prevent oxidation of the copper when soldering sterling. It would function very poorly compared to an actual flux.
|
|
|
Post by opalpyrexia on Mar 20, 2019 12:21:39 GMT -5
They do make a substitute that they still call TSP. You have to read the the fine print. The box I bought is made by Savogran and says Trisodium Phosphate in large letters on the top. It has 6.1% phosphate in it.
My chemistry education is weathered and eroded, but I know that TSP that is commonly available is in a hydrated form —
Trisodium phosphate dodecahydrate, H24Na3O16P
That water must account for the other 94% by weight.
|
|
|
Post by opalpyrexia on Mar 22, 2019 10:57:01 GMT -5
One last note about TSP — I went to my local Ace Hardware yesterday and now they carry only a single "TSP" product. Despite the prominent "TSP" label this product contains no TSP. It contains sodium metasilicate (Na2SiO3) per the fine print on the back, so there is zero phosphate in this product. I'll have to find another source.
|
|
zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
|
Post by zarguy on Mar 22, 2019 11:55:12 GMT -5
|
|