braat
spending too much on rocks
Member since December 2016
Posts: 350
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Post by braat on Mar 26, 2019 15:46:07 GMT -5
From all the reading I've been doing here on RTH I gather that some people burnish and some don't...I've been doing it faithfully since I started tumbling nearly 3 yrs ago accepting that burnishing was improving the final shine. But after my most recent batch (my second vibe batch) I didn't do the after polish burnish. My thinking was that if the only reason I'm burnishing is to remove some polish residue then why can't I do that by hand and maybe save some shine degradation from burnishing in the tumbler (rocks rubbing against rocks with no polish for the duration of the burnish stage). So I hand rubbed this last batch with a soft cloth and I could see as I was rubbing that there was some residue that was fairly easily buffed out. The resultant overall average shine was the best I've had to date likely mostly due to better recipe and practices but maybe the hand burnishing adds to the final shine?? Am I missing something? I'd be interested in everybody's comments on all this...
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Post by miket on Mar 26, 2019 16:00:29 GMT -5
That's funny, I just did the same thing- sort of. The first time I tumbled I burnished faithfully after every stage and the rocks came out with a pretty good shine. On the batch of obsidian that I posted yesterday I only burnished after the final stage and I think I got a pretty good shine on those, too. So I guess I'd like to hear what other's have to say also.
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Post by fernwood on Mar 29, 2019 17:59:51 GMT -5
Are you burnishing or cleaning? Adding a soap step between grits/polishing is cleaning. Burnishing is polishing by rubbing. Some people use the two terms to mean the same thing.
I burnish some rocks after final polish. Use a piece of micro fiber or denim. Even rubbing rocks on the jeans you are wearing helps with the gloss on some.
I do a 24-48 hour cleaning stage with Borax between all stages and after final polish. Thinking about adding another step after the final cleaning. Ensure there is a 50-50 mix of stones and plastic pellets. Then run them for a while in just water. Thinking this might help with removing the Borax residue. High pressure spray just is not working.
Only using the rotary at the moment.
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Post by TheRock on Mar 30, 2019 9:36:50 GMT -5
I have not been burnishing much at all as I use Borax on each stage 220 to .3 micron as I polish and before the wash out I give the vibe a Squirt of soft soap and run for 4 hrs. I just completed a Batch of Mexican Crazy Lace Thursday night late and after the wash out of the UV-18 I put 2 TB of Borax and 2 TB of Grated Ivory in the UV-18 when I opened the lid the stones were booking in a circular motion and rolling from the outside to center in a rapid fashion. I ran it for 4 Hrs and WOW In my opinion there were no water spots or traces of soap at all. With that I plan on doing that to all future batches. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
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Post by Rockindad on Mar 30, 2019 15:21:15 GMT -5
Are you burnishing or cleaning? Adding a soap step between grits/polishing is cleaning. Burnishing is polishing by rubbing. Some people use the two terms to mean the same thing. Nailed it. This is a difficult concept for many beginners to understand, I know I was confused by this. Hundreds of posts on this forum, books, instructional websites, owners of rock shops, etc. use them interchangeably. burnish[bur-nish] SYNONYMS|EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR burnish ON THESAURUS.COM verb (used with object) to polish (a surface) by friction. to make smooth and bright. Engraving . to flatten and enlarge the dots of (a halftone) by rubbing with a tool. noun gloss; brightness; luster: the burnish of brass andirons. I have been using a short "wash" cycle of 3-4 hours with Borax or Ivory after polishing. I really don't consider it a burnish run as I have not seen any improvement in polish or shine and I was running loads for a full 24 hours previously. The only purpose of doing it now is to shake any polish out of pits, cracks, etc. and use the soap to keep things a little slick versus going with plain water. For the record our water is of average hardness, some people with harder water may need to do a true burnish. Al
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Post by TheRock on Mar 30, 2019 16:58:31 GMT -5
Are you burnishing or cleaning? Adding a soap step between grits/polishing is cleaning. Burnishing is polishing by rubbing. Some people use the two terms to mean the same thing. Nailed it. This is a difficult concept for many beginners to understand, I know I was confused by this. Hundreds of posts on this forum, books, instructional websites, owners of rock shops, etc. use them interchangeably. burnish[bur-nish] SYNONYMS|EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR burnish ON THESAURUS.COM verb (used with object) to polish (a surface) by friction. to make smooth and bright. Engraving . to flatten and enlarge the dots of (a halftone) by rubbing with a tool. noun gloss; brightness; luster: the burnish of brass andirons. I have been using a short "wash" cycle of 3-4 hours with Borax or Ivory after polishing. I really don't consider it a burnish run as I have not seen any improvement in polish or shine and I was running loads for a full 24 hours previously. The only purpose of doing it now is to shake any polish out of pits, cracks, etc. and use the soap to keep things a little slick versus going with plain water. For the record our water is of average hardness, some people with harder water may need to do a true burnish. Al Good point, I use reverse Osmosis water to tumble and to burnish in. I do the wash out on the stones off with Regular tap water, but the final rinse is with RO water. I don't know if it helps but it sure cant hurt.
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Post by grumpybill on Mar 31, 2019 7:14:57 GMT -5
The people who run exceptionally long "cleaning" cycles (i.e. days vs hours) might actually be getting a bit of burnishing from the stones rubbing against each other.
There was a guy on the RTH Facebook page who ran an experiment a while back. If I remember correctly, after the 500 stage he ran the stones in borax without polish in a rotary for several weeks and claimed they polished...just not as well as if he'd used polish. He attributed this to the borax acting as polish, but in my (not so) humble opinion, it was more likely the result of the stones rubbing and burnishing each other.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Mar 31, 2019 10:14:44 GMT -5
Are you burnishing or cleaning? Adding a soap step between grits/polishing is cleaning. Burnishing is polishing by rubbing. Some people use the two terms to mean the same thing. Nailed it. This is a difficult concept for many beginners to understand, I know I was confused by this. Hundreds of posts on this forum, books, instructional websites, owners of rock shops, etc. use them interchangeably. burnish[bur-nish] SYNONYMS|EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR burnish ON THESAURUS.COM verb (used with object) to polish (a surface) by friction. l
You Guys are So Correct , I will change my terminology and start referring to the steps as . . .
Washing - Tumble with water, with or without a soap product Burnishing - Creating a finishing polish by friction or rubbing
I also agree that, you can burnish rocks by tumbling in deep plain water , rock on rock.
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purplesage2
off to a rocking start
Member since April 2019
Posts: 9
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Post by purplesage2 on Apr 3, 2019 6:52:38 GMT -5
After my last step of Aluminum Oxide polish, I run at least a week or more with Ivory soap flakes. The Wonder stone, Petrified Wood and Agates turn out beautiful.
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Post by fernwood on Apr 3, 2019 7:05:07 GMT -5
After my last step of Aluminum Oxide polish, I run at least a week or more with Ivory soap flakes. The Wonder stone, Petrified Wood and Agates turn out beautiful. Why a week? Just curious. I have found that depending on stage and the smoothness of rocks, 4-24 hours usually removes all the grit/polish. Only have used Borax or Cascade Complete dishwasher packets. I then use a high pressure water wash on everything to remove the soap. Have never heard f anyone running a soap cleaning stage that long. I have read where some use shaved Ivory Bar Soap for longer. They claim the natural oils in the soap add additional gloss. Do the Ivory soap flakes have the same effect as the shaved bar soap? Do you find the longer run with soap helps more than a 24 hour maximum run? Thanks
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Post by grumpybill on Apr 3, 2019 9:48:32 GMT -5
Running "at least a week or more" might actually accomplish a bit of burnishing. Although I think the soap would act as a lubricant and prevent it from happening.
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Post by HankRocks on Apr 3, 2019 10:10:38 GMT -5
After my last step of Aluminum Oxide polish, I run at least a week or more with Ivory soap flakes. The Wonder stone, Petrified Wood and Agates turn out beautiful. I suspect that if you left your rocks in Polish for 1 or 2 extra days and then burnished(soap run) for 8 hours or so you would accomplish the same thing. Obviously running extra time with the burnishing is not hurting anything. I suspect that after some period of time 8 hours, 12 hours or maybe even 24 hours you have as much out of the burnishing(soap run) as can be gotten. My only soap runs happen after the polish stage, maybe 8 to 10 hours, and in between any SiC and AO stages for 4 to 5 hours. the later is really not burnishing, it's cleaning any residual SiC left after the rinse. By the look of the soapy gray water it is removing some SiC. Have one today with a batch of slabs and preforms that is coming out of 220 SiC and will be going to 80 AO. I think the old adage that it's almost never a problem with more time in any stage, all you are using up is time. Of course if you are running something that does not have sufficient hardness that adage does not apply.
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purplesage2
off to a rocking start
Member since April 2019
Posts: 9
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Post by purplesage2 on Apr 3, 2019 13:20:08 GMT -5
After my last step of Aluminum Oxide polish, I run at least a week or more with Ivory soap flakes. The Wonder stone, Petrified Wood and Agates turn out beautiful. Why a week? Just curious. I have found that depending on stage and the smoothness of rocks, 4-24 hours usually removes all the grit/polish. Only have used Borax or Cascade Complete dishwasher packets. I then use a high pressure water wash on everything to remove the soap. Have never heard f anyone running a soap cleaning stage that long. I have read where some use shaved Ivory Bar Soap for longer. They claim the natural oils in the soap add additional gloss. Do the Ivory soap flakes have the same effect as the shaved bar soap? Do you find the longer run with soap helps more than a 24 hour maximum run? Thanks
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purplesage2
off to a rocking start
Member since April 2019
Posts: 9
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Post by purplesage2 on Apr 3, 2019 13:22:06 GMT -5
I use shaved Ivory bar soap. I used to run it a week, then I found that running it beyond a week produced a better shine.
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purplesage2
off to a rocking start
Member since April 2019
Posts: 9
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Post by purplesage2 on Apr 3, 2019 13:23:44 GMT -5
After my last step of Aluminum Oxide polish, I run at least a week or more with Ivory soap flakes. The Wonder stone, Petrified Wood and Agates turn out beautiful. I suspect that if you left your rocks in Polish for 1 or 2 extra days and then burnished(soap run) for 8 hours or so you would accomplish the same thing. Obviously running extra time with the burnishing is not hurting anything. I suspect that after some period of time 8 hours, 12 hours or maybe even 24 hours you have as much out of the burnishing(soap run) as can be gotten. My only soap runs happen after the polish stage, maybe 8 to 10 hours, and in between any SiC and AO stages for 4 to 5 hours. the later is really not burnishing, it's cleaning any residual SiC left after the rinse. By the look of the soapy gray water it is removing some SiC. Have one today with a batch of slabs and preforms that is coming out of 220 SiC and will be going to 80 AO. I think the old adage that it's almost never a problem with more time in any stage, all you are using up is time. Of course if you are running something that does not have sufficient hardness that adage does not apply.
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purplesage2
off to a rocking start
Member since April 2019
Posts: 9
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Post by purplesage2 on Apr 3, 2019 13:24:24 GMT -5
I'll have to give your method a try on the next batch...Thanks
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Apr 3, 2019 13:26:41 GMT -5
Does anybody use plastic beads when doing the Wash ? I don't, but I fill the barrel Full of water.
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Post by fernwood on Apr 4, 2019 5:22:33 GMT -5
Does anybody use plastic beads when doing the Wash ? I don't, but I fill the barrel Full of water. Yes, for cushioning.
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purplesage2
off to a rocking start
Member since April 2019
Posts: 9
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Post by purplesage2 on Apr 4, 2019 12:15:31 GMT -5
This looks like a pretty good recipe...I'm gonna give it a try. I also used plastic pellets for fill. This was posted by Rollingstone. ROCK TUMBLER RECIPE Stage 1, 60/90 silicon carbide. Charge a 6# barrel at least 3/4 full with very rough, chisel-cracked rock, add 6 fluid ounces water, add 4 Tb of 60/90 grit. - the 3/4-full barrel is because the volume will shrink quickly as the sharp edges wear off the rock, and after about 1 day you can hear things tumbling much better. - consider using plastic pellets for rocks that chip easily or have a lot of fractures such as amethyst, rose quartz, petrified wood because the pellets may soften the action a bit and thereby prevent chipping. Pellets can also help if a very big rock is going into the barrel. For things like agates, pellets aren’t needed and only slow down the action in the barrel. After 2 days, open the barrel and add 3 Tb fresh grit (total now 7 Tb). Need a spray bottle to wash grit from the lip of the barrel, but this doesn’t add much water. Add some extra coarse rock if the level has dropped significantly. After 2 more days, do another 3 Tb recharge (total now 10 Tb). Again, use water from the spray bottle to rinse the lip of the barrel. If the slurry is getting too thick then add more water, but gravy consistency is good. Optional after 2 more days, repeat with 3 Tb grit (total 13 Tb) -- this will only work when tumbling very hard materials such as agates. For just about everything else, a total of 10 Tb is the maximum before the slurry gets too thick in the end. Let tumble 4 more days since last addition of grit. Clean up everything. If the stones are free from imperfections and are nicely shaped, move on to stage 2, otherwise put them back through stage 1, adding fresh-cracked rock to make up to volume. If using all partly-shaped rock, maybe don’t fill the barrel quite so full because there won’t be a rapid volume reduction to help things tumble properly. With amethyst, I found that 1/3 of the amethyst was ready after 3 weeks, another 1/3 was ready after 5 weeks, and the other 1/3 still needed additional tumbling. Jaspers seem faster, agates seem slower. Agates can take 8-12 weeks, depending on type and size. Need to do multiple loads and combine them to have enough for a stage 2 and beyond run, because there is a big loss of volume. Stage 2, 120/220 silicon carbide. Charge the barrel with about 2/3-3/4 volume of rocks, a good dose of plastic pellets for fractured rocks, 6-8 fl. oz. water (6 oz. for very hard materials, 8 oz. for jaspers or softer), 10 Tb grit. Don’t use the same plastic pellets as for stage 1, keep plastic pellets and sieves separate for each stage. You want enough pellets to cushion things a bit, but still maintain a vigorous tumble that works the stones. The rocks shouldn't be crashing around, but should definitely be making a good tumbling noise. For solid rocks like agates or crazy lace you can get away with no pellets. After 7 days, clean everything thoroughly. For the cleaning, do a double soap wash -- put rocks and plastic pellets back in the barrel and add water until the water comes about half way up the barrel, add 1.5-2 Tb of shavings from a bar of Ivory soap, and add extra pellets to fill the barrel to within about a half-inch of the top (because the cushioning effect of the slurry is now gone so extra pellets are needed to prevent chipping). Then run the barrel for about 45 minutes, clean thoroughly. Repeat. Separate pellets and rocks, move rocks to next stage and dry pellets for re-use in another 120/220 load. Stage 3, 500F silicon carbide. Similar to stage 2 -- place in the barrel the stones from 120/220, 10Tb of grit plus 8 fl.oz. water, then tumble for 7-10 days. Don’t add too many pellets -- should hear rocks clearly tumbling against each other, not crashing, but making some noise -- this speeds up the action in the barrel compared to having lots of pellets and just a faint tumble noise in the barrel. Finish off with two - 45 minute soap cleanings of pellets and rocks. At this stage, the stones will have a very matte finish that doesn’t look much different than after 60/90, but they should feel noticeably smoother. Stage 4, polish. This is where science gives way to art. There is a tricky balance between polish, water, rock and pellets. What seems to happen is that the polish incorporates a lot of air during the first day, forming a foam that usually lasts 10 days or longer. So don’t worry if the tumble initially sounds a slight bit rough, once the air gets mixed in over the next 12-24 hours the tumbling will quiet down. My basic recipe so far is to charge barrel up to 2/3 with rocks, about 10 fl. oz. of water, add 12 Tb polish compound, add plastic pellets until the barrel is 3/4 full or maybe a bit more, and run for up to 3 weeks. For polish, I use aluminum oxide, which is cheap and good for most stones. The barrel should make the sound of gently tumbling rocks -- not too soft, not crashing about. If too soft, may have to open and remove pellets or add water, if too rough may have to add more pellets. It's best not to open the barrel unless absolutely necessary or to see if the stones are fully polished, because a barrel full of foam is really messy to seal up again. I've had some stones become fully polished in as little as 9 days but most stones improve for 2-3 weeks, then they won't get any shinier. When I think the stones should be finished, I open the barrel and remove a few stones and examine them with a 10X loupe. Under magnification it's fairly easy to tell if the surface is a good as it's going to get. If in doubt, put them back in the barrel, run things another week, and see if they improve. Patience! Final Cleaning. When the stones are polished to your satisfaction, put the barrel-load in a plastic sieve and rinse away the polish but DO NOT LET THE STONES DRY OUT! If the stones become dry, any residual polish in any crack or pit will turn into cement and will never come out. Place the wet stones, pellets, fresh water (to halfway up the barrel) back into barrel, add 1-1.5 Tb shaved bar of ivory soap, then fill the barrel almost to the brim with plastic pellets. This should make for an extremely gentle tumbling sound when the barrel is placed back onto the tumbler -- i.e., just the slightest tumbling noise from the rocks. Run for about 6 hours to clean residual polish out of any cracks. Rinse, dry, and admire! Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/22055/newbies-inspirational-tumbles-start-on#ixzz5k9DQbJAZ
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Post by greig on Apr 4, 2019 14:24:15 GMT -5
I have played with "burnish" quite a bit: usually the amount of time based on time of day when I start or distractions afterwards. I have noticed that 3 hours with ivory soap is typically the minimum. If I start the burnish at the end of the day, then I let it run all night (at least). If I have other things to do the next day ... or get lazy... I leave them in until I can get at it sometime in the daylight. I honestly don't notice a difference between 8 hours and 28+ hours. However, I think on most projects that 8 hours is better than 3. The typical test to determine is burnishing will help is to "aggressively rub one sample dry rock using a soft cloth" for a while. If it improves the shine, then burnish is a good idea. I can say that I could not see a difference in outcome anytime that I have aggressively rubbed a stone on a soft cloth after it has been more than 8 hours in "burnish". It would be a good video to demonstrate this. ;-)
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