cosmetal
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since September 2018
Posts: 115
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Post by cosmetal on May 18, 2019 17:15:30 GMT -5
Greetings, all! I am going to start my silversmithing journey by learning to work copper. Yes, I do know they are two different elements and will solder/form/cast differently. But, material cost is a factor I need to consider. I have hand, and power, hammered both silver, copper and bronze in the past. Once, I even made a small silver spoon using a 200 lb. (falling weight) Chambersburg forging hammer - just wanted to feel the control on the hammer. Now that I think about it, I need to find that piece and take it's photo. Anyhow, I digress down "memory lane". Back to the present. My fabrication skills using non-ferrous metals needs improving. I want to solder copper-to-copper. But, in my research, I found many complaints about color differences between the copper soldered joint and the base copper metal using any commercially available copper soldering product. Many say that further annealing will minimize the color change - "maybe". In the past, when we would join forged bronze handrails sections together, we would use a piece of the bronze from one of the handrails and TIG weld the sections together with that. This helped minimize color variances. Has anyone ever used thin copper sheet (30 ga) to make soldering pallions and use those to solder thick copper pieces together? Or, tried using a piece of the copper you are working - hammering it into a thinner section - and use that to make your pallions? In theory, the much thinner pallions should melt/flow first - yes? Also, do you have a favorite flux for copper? Your knowledge and experience is appreciated! Peace, James
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Post by opalpyrexia on May 19, 2019 12:01:01 GMT -5
Never really worked in copper except very occasionally to create a prototype piece to decide what, if any, design changes I might make in silver. Those were done with silver solder, of course.
The only thing that I can offer is to point out that silver's price today is within $0.50 of the lowest price in five years. It's not a bad time to buy some sheet and wire.
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Post by Pat on May 19, 2019 21:47:59 GMT -5
Interesting idea— to use a thinner piece of the same metal you are trying to solder — as solder. I want to try that.
If you try it, I hope you post your results.
Re copper solder on copper, might minimize the color disparity if you sweat solder the item.
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Post by Pat on May 19, 2019 21:53:39 GMT -5
BTW re your 200 lb falling weight hammer— how much does it weigh just sitting on the bench?
And how far does it have to fall to achieve 200lbs?
I’ve never heard that term before.
Thanks.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on May 19, 2019 23:25:56 GMT -5
I don't know if using pure copper pallions will actually work. Copper solder, like silver solder, is alloyed with other metals to lower the melting point in order to get the solder to flow without melting your metal into a puddle. When I took jewelry classes in high school (a million years ago) we were taught to use silver solder with copper. While you can see the solder line faintly, it was just done that way and I believe still is.
They do make copper solders now that weren't around back then, but I would still use silver solder if I were working in copper. The easy way to fix the difference in color is to put a little piece of iron in your used pickle and put your piece in the pickle. The iron will cause the copper in the pickle to electroplate the silver. Of course, then you have contaminated your pickle, but I have read that you can make a super pickle with hydrogen peroxide that will fix it. i have never tried it, but maybe someone on the board has -- gemfeller or opalpyrexia or Pat or someone else?
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Post by opalpyrexia on May 20, 2019 9:22:47 GMT -5
The easy way to fix the difference in color is to put a little piece of iron in your used pickle and put your piece in the pickle. The iron will cause the copper in the pickle to electroplate the silver. Of course, then you have contaminated your pickle, but I have read that you can make a super pickle with hydrogen peroxide that will fix it. i have never tried it, but maybe someone on the board has ... I've never done that, not even accidentally. It's worth a try. Pre-polishing a piece would probably be a requirement because the plating would be mighty thin. Might want to make bad old pickle by cooking copper in it for a few days.
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cosmetal
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since September 2018
Posts: 115
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Post by cosmetal on May 20, 2019 10:55:10 GMT -5
BTW re your 200 lb falling weight hammer— how much does it weigh just sitting on the bench? And how far does it have to fall to achieve 200lbs? I’ve never heard that term before. Thanks. Falling weight refers to the static weight of the power hammer's piston when at rest. The falling weight turns into striking energy when the hammer is in operation. The striking energy is what moves the metal when forged. Depending upon the size of the power hammer, you can move massive amounts of metal with a single blow. Or, if the hammer has good "control", very small amounts of metal. Also important in the striking energy calculation is the hammer's blows-per-minute (BPM). When forging the silver spoon, I was testing the hammer's control. Do a Google Images search for "Self-Contained Pneumatic Forging Hammers" and you'll see that we're talking about large, foundation-anchored machinery. Best, James
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cosmetal
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since September 2018
Posts: 115
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Post by cosmetal on May 20, 2019 10:56:12 GMT -5
Interesting idea— to use a thinner piece of the same metal you are trying to solder — as solder. I want to try that. If you try it, I hope you post your results. Re copper solder on copper, might minimize the color disparity if you sweat solder the item. I will. Should be soon. James
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cosmetal
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since September 2018
Posts: 115
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Post by cosmetal on May 21, 2019 18:19:17 GMT -5
Interesting idea— to use a thinner piece of the same metal you are trying to solder — as solder. I want to try that. If you try it, I hope you post your results. Re copper solder on copper, might minimize the color disparity if you sweat solder the item. I will. Should be soon. James Gack . . . ! This copper to copper soldering using 30 ga copper pallions isn't going to work - at least for me. All the pieces melted at the same time and created blobs and holes. This soldering of thin sheet/wire and stock is a humbling experience for me. I am used to GMAW welding heavy plate steel and braze and GTAW welding heavy bronze. This is the 2nd time I've fired up my new Smiths Little Torch using their #3 tip. Talk about needing finesse! Ah . . . challenges! Love 'em. Back to my re-education at the bench. James
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