JR8675309
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since August 2019
Posts: 751
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Post by JR8675309 on Oct 9, 2019 9:12:43 GMT -5
Hey folks I usually use a ”standard” third stage grit from the rock shed, the Al oxide 500 prepolish. I decided to purchase the SiC 500 this time to switch things up. What has been your experience? Will that work faster or slower than the usual grit?
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Post by captbob on Oct 9, 2019 9:44:20 GMT -5
Faster. The SiC should be more aggressive than the AO in removing the "scratches" from the previous step. The SiC won't lay down a base polish like the 500 AO will.
What is your following step after 500?
If you go straight to polish after 500, and you are not in a hurry, I might even consider running the 500 SiC then the 500 AO before polish. Or just let the 500SiC run a little longer to break down more.
If you go from 500SiC to 1000AO (or Tripoli) before polish that would also be a good option.
Going straight from 500SiC straight to polish is a pretty big step. Unless it runs long enough to really break down.
Reckon it depends on how picky ya are!
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Oct 9, 2019 10:07:21 GMT -5
I was trying to think of a good way to explain the difference. captbob did a good job so I am glad he replied before I did. Chuck
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JR8675309
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since August 2019
Posts: 751
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Post by JR8675309 on Oct 9, 2019 16:05:30 GMT -5
Faster. The SiC should be more aggressive than the AO in removing the "scratches" from the previous step. The SiC won't lay down a base polish like the 500 AO will. What is your following step after 500? If you go straight to polish after 500, and you are not in a hurry, I might even consider running the 500 SiC then the 500 AO before polish. Or just let the 500SiC run a little longer to break down more. If you go from 500SiC to 1000AO (or Tripoli) before polish that would also be a good option. Going straight from 500SiC straight to polish is a pretty big step. Unless it runs long enough to really break down. Reckon it depends on how picky ya are!I was thinking of going straight to polish after a week (mix of cerium and aluminum). Maybe I should wait another week? I hate to just be adding another step you know?
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Post by captbob on Oct 9, 2019 16:46:56 GMT -5
As I said earlier, it just depends on how picky ya are.
I wouldn't consider going from 500SiC to polish after just a one week run - EVER.
Give it a shot if that's what you want to do. You can always go back and run steps and grits over again. Adding another step or more time (often MUCH more time!) usually pays off. We learn by doing. The rocks won't care.
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harrym
having dreams about rocks
NH - The Granite State
Member since January 2019
Posts: 59
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Post by harrym on Oct 9, 2019 17:23:40 GMT -5
I mix the two - 50% 500 AO and 50% 500 SiC. Works for me
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JR8675309
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since August 2019
Posts: 751
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Post by JR8675309 on Oct 9, 2019 21:21:16 GMT -5
I mix the two - 50% 500 AO and 50% 500 SiC. Works for me When you Mia do you feel like you are getting faster results?
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Post by aDave on Oct 9, 2019 21:39:26 GMT -5
I mix the two - 50% 500 AO and 50% 500 SiC. Works for me When you Mia do you feel like you are getting faster results? I gotta tell you, you have to get out of the mindset as to how fast you can finish stuff. captbob gave you some great advice, and you should take that to heart. IMHO, when you start looking to cheat times, your results will suffer. I used 500 AO in a rotary for two weeks before I moved onto polish. BIG difference when compared to SiC which I had tried before. After my 500 AO run of two weeks, I did AO polish for three weeks. Bottom line...use AO 500 and 1000 preceding your polish stage. There is a difference, so don't use SiC for those stages.
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JR8675309
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since August 2019
Posts: 751
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Post by JR8675309 on Oct 9, 2019 21:49:04 GMT -5
When you Mia do you feel like you are getting faster results? I gotta tell you, you have to get out of the mindset as to how fast you can finish stuff. captbob gave you some great advice, and you should take that to heart. IMHO, when you start looking to cheat times, your results will suffer. I used 500 AO in a rotary for two weeks before I moved onto polish. BIG difference when compared to SiC which I had tried before. After my 500 AO run of two weeks, I did AO polish for three weeks. Bottom line...use AO 500 and 1000 preceding your polish stage. There is a difference, so don't use SiC for those stages. I get it. Still, knowing is good ammo as to why one is taking certain steps. Having all of the facts is helpful. I left my last batch in for two months with terrific results. I don’t believe honing steps and asking questions is a bad thing. I absolutely was not ignoring captbob. Just seeking answers. Besides I have this 500 SiC and I need to know what to expect. I’ve had it tumbling ten days. If you tell me is faster, I have to know that so I Dan check it more often to see if anything is going awry. I’m not saying I’m going to skip steps, just that I hate adding another... so maybe I’ll eliminate the new grit. I see this dialogue as part of the process.
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Post by aDave on Oct 9, 2019 22:41:50 GMT -5
I gotta tell you, you have to get out of the mindset as to how fast you can finish stuff. captbob gave you some great advice, and you should take that to heart. IMHO, when you start looking to cheat times, your results will suffer. I used 500 AO in a rotary for two weeks before I moved onto polish. BIG difference when compared to SiC which I had tried before. After my 500 AO run of two weeks, I did AO polish for three weeks. Bottom line...use AO 500 and 1000 preceding your polish stage. There is a difference, so don't use SiC for those stages. I get it. Still, knowing is good ammo as to why one is taking certain steps. Having all of the facts is helpful. I left my last batch in for two months with terrific results. I don’t believe honing steps and asking questions is a bad thing. I absolutely was not ignoring captbob. Just seeking answers. Besides I have this 500 SiC and I need to know what to expect. I’ve had it tumbling ten days. If you tell me is faster, I have to know that so I Dan check it more often to see if anything is going awry. I’m not saying I’m going to skip steps, just that I hate adding another... so maybe I’ll eliminate the new grit. I see this dialogue as part of the process. Please don't get me wrong. I was not being critical in any fashion. I was only backing what captbob mentioned and why I backed what he had to say. I totally appreciate your effort to get more info...that's good at the end of the day. I'm only mentioning different grits and stages as it relates to time and what the results might be. Quite frankly, I'm one of the last persons you should look to as it relates to shortening time, as my rotary finishing stages (after coarse) were somewhere near seven weeks. After using 500 AO for two weeks, after previously trying 500 SiC, I never went back. SiC might have cut more, but at this stage, I didn't need cutting. I liked my results with AO more. After coarse, my steps in the rotary were: 120/220 for 7-10 days. Just depended on when I could do a cleanout. 500 AO for two weeks with no cleanout. AO polish for three weeks. After establishing my routine, patience was not an issue, as things were what they were. If I misunderstood your intent to quicken the process, I apologize. Good luck with your tumbles.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,422
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Post by Wooferhound on Oct 10, 2019 7:38:16 GMT -5
Here is a story where I used AO-80 for stages 2 and 3 without using 120/220 or 600 at all.
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JR8675309
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since August 2019
Posts: 751
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Post by JR8675309 on Oct 10, 2019 8:18:03 GMT -5
I get it. Still, knowing is good ammo as to why one is taking certain steps. Having all of the facts is helpful. I left my last batch in for two months with terrific results. I don’t believe honing steps and asking questions is a bad thing. I absolutely was not ignoring captbob. Just seeking answers. Besides I have this 500 SiC and I need to know what to expect. I’ve had it tumbling ten days. If you tell me is faster, I have to know that so I Dan check it more often to see if anything is going awry. I’m not saying I’m going to skip steps, just that I hate adding another... so maybe I’ll eliminate the new grit. I see this dialogue as part of the process. Please don't get me wrong. I was not being critical in any fashion. I was only backing what captbob mentioned and why I backed what he had to say. I totally appreciate your effort to get more info...that's good at the end of the day. I'm only mentioning different grits and stages as it relates to time and what the results might be. Quite frankly, I'm one of the last persons you should look to as it relates to shortening time, as my rotary finishing stages (after coarse) were somewhere near seven weeks. After using 500 AO for two weeks, after previously trying 500 SiC, I never went back. SiC might have cut more, but at this stage, I didn't need cutting. I liked my results with AO more. After coarse, my steps in the rotary were: 120/220 for 7-10 days. Just depended on when I could do a cleanout. 500 AO for two weeks with no cleanout. AO polish for three weeks. After establishing my routine, patience was not an issue, as things were what they were. If I misunderstood your intent to quicken the process, I apologize. Good luck with your tumbles. No worries! I appreciate all the info I can get! You didn’t offend me either. I’ve been letting my tumblers run longer and longer since I started getting serious this past year. I did go check on my. SiC 5pp batches last night and I do believe I’m going to move to the 500AO when done. I appreciate everyone’s input.
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JR8675309
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since August 2019
Posts: 751
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Post by JR8675309 on Oct 10, 2019 8:22:47 GMT -5
Here is a story where I used AO-80 for stages 2 and 3 without using 120/220 or 600 at all.
I took a brief look, but need to go back and read it all. My first thought was “what is AO 80?”
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MommaGem
spending too much on rocks
Member since April 2019
Posts: 312
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Post by MommaGem on Oct 10, 2019 8:25:34 GMT -5
I ave used both 500 SiC and 500 AO, and I personally prefer 500 AO. It just seems to do a better job smoothing. But I also use a 1000AO pre-polish before the polish stage.
I know it's been discussed already, but you may want to shift your mindset from "faster" to "more efficient." And it can take some trial an error to determine what is most efficient for what you like to tumble.
For example, I used to do 500SiC for one week, then it would take 3-4 weeks in polish after. So... 5 weeks ish, worst case scenario? As mentioned before, going straight from 500SiC to polish was not very efficient.
Now I do 1 week 500AO, 1 week 1000AO, and I only need 1 week polish! I've not yet needed more time than this.
Trial and error, some experimentation, and take good notes Best wishes!!
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Post by greig on Oct 10, 2019 9:25:20 GMT -5
I am going to be the odd man out here with my comment.
I don't think it matters if you use stage 3 AO or SIC in a rotary tumbler (as long as it is a quality product). It probably depends more on the rock being tumbled. Stage 3 is to remove scratches and the step is complete when the scratches are gone (whatever you use or however long it takes).
If I was to guess at what is happening - is the SIC breaks down a little bit faster, so you may need to add a bit more after a week...if there are still scratches to remove. However, usually the scratches are gone, but a quick look at the rocks will tell you. If the scratches are gone, then longer in the tumbler won't help (or hurt).
However, when AO or SIC break down, then they simply become a higher grit and get closer to becoming a polish. FYI - the breaking down of grit is why you don't normally reuse it. Polish doesn't break down, so can be reused if cleaned, but I am too lazy to do that.
As such, in my mind if you are tumbling stage 3 for a week, then it doesn't matter what grit is used. If you intend to go for longer, because of scratches in hard stone, then you might prefer AO so you don't have to add more SIC. If you intend to go for longer without scratches after a week, then again it doesn't matter what grit, bearing in mind that the AO seems to take longer to break down (so if for some reason I thought I would let it run for a month, I would probably look to AO).
I would be happy to have my thinking corrected. ;-)
Greig
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Oct 10, 2019 10:46:11 GMT -5
If you use a 10-power (10X) hand loupe you can examine the scratch marks on the stone to see if it is ready to move to the next step. It is very easy and a way to compare the impact of AO to SIC of the same size grit on a stone. Bottom line is that a 10X loupe can easily tell you whether the stone has been tumbled enough to move on. All you have to do is compare the scratch lines sizes before and after the tumbling step in question. If the beginning scratch lines from the previous step have not been eliminated you would give the rock another tumble in the same grit of the current step until they are. It is pretty easy to catch on to viewing the scratch lines. www.gemsociety.org/article/10x-loupe-the-gemologists-best-friend/
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Post by parfive on Oct 10, 2019 13:39:35 GMT -5
Here’s something to try next time you have a batch going into 500. Doesn’t matter if it’s SiC or AO. Weigh the rocks, dry, to the gram, before you run ‘em for your week or two or whatever. Weigh them again after cleanout.
How much did you lose?
Five percent? More?
Now take a close look at what you’ve been pluckin’ out of 60/90, ready to move on. Think you’ll have to grind away more than five percent to get rid of those pesky 60/90 “scratches”?
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Post by captbob on Oct 10, 2019 14:23:43 GMT -5
Hopefully, you are running something between 60/90 and 500. By the time I get to 500 I wouldn't expect any weight reduction that a scale someone has at home could detect. Each step takes less time than the one before because there is less needed to be done. Polish being the possible exception, as I have found that the longer polish runs the better. Learned that when I let a polish cycle run for a year.
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Post by aDave on Oct 10, 2019 14:55:02 GMT -5
Hopefully, you are running something between 60/90 and 500. By the time I get to 500 I wouldn't expect any weight reduction that a scale someone has at home could detect. Each step takes less time than the one before because there is less needed to be done. Polish being the possible exception, as I have found that the longer polish runs the better. Learned that when I let a polish cycle run for a year. Can't say for sure who it was, but I seem to recall Drummond Island Rocks or Jugglerguy did that experiment, and they were surprised at the amount of material that was lost after doing the coarse stage. I want to say it was 10% of mass through the final stages - clearly less and less was taken off as the material moved to polish. And, I'm with you on the time in polish. Whether it was psychological or not, I noticed a difference on my finished material from one week to two weeks and to where I finally settled in at three weeks.
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Post by parfive on Oct 10, 2019 15:36:03 GMT -5
It’s easy to measure weight loss after a week in 500. When I said five percent, it wasn’t a guess.
I haven’t bothered with 120/220 since ~2006. Waste of time.
A week in 1000, you won’t see a measurable difference.
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