jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
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Post by jawsjr on Jan 5, 2020 13:31:46 GMT -5
Hello,
I am working on tumbling some obsidian. Here is what I have done so far. 9 days of 60/90 grit in a Lorton QT 12 (3/4 full) with 8 tablespoons of grit and a good mix of ceramic media, Material was washed, first time outside with hose in a colander the inside with Dawn Dish soap and hot water, Media was also washed.
Then 8 days of 120/220 grit in the QT 12 repeating washing process.
30 hour in Thumler's UV-10 Vibratory Tumbler. with AO 500 pre-polish. Used rubber tile spacers for cushioning media. Used spray bottle to add enough water to ensure obsidian and media was well coated. Inspected when ever I thought about it, and added a squirt or two of water if needed. Washed really good and these came out looking very good. Also watched the tumbler barrel very well first with high pressure hose and then hot water with Dawn. Inspected visually and also by running finger inside, no residue inside the barrel.
Back in Vibratory Tumbler with cleaned obsidian and media. Added three tablespoons of cerium oxide (the ivory colored 99.9% pure). then spray bottle for water. Check occasionally and added a squirt or two of water. Here is a video Showing that action of the material inside of the tumbler. This ran for another 30 hours in total.
Now the results were very bad in my opinion. Here is a pictures of a piece in natural light on a cloudy day:Now here is a picture of it under LED lighting.And another with a different cameraNow one more picture. The left chunk of obsidian was a prior batch with the polish as aluminum oxide going through nearly an identical set of procedures. What in my described procedures am I doing incorrect?
I see there it pitting in the current obsidian chunk, and truly truing to figure this out. Any help and suggestions appreciated.
Also suggestions on what I should do with this current batch. Should I start back at 500 grit or go back to 220 and restart? Am i using the correct polish with the Cerium Oxide? Is my tumbler too full? is the polish too thick/thin on the obsidian? Should I just give up (do not want to do this)? Please constructive comments, and although I am a sarcastic person. sarcasm would not be appreciated on this issue, I am at my wits end here and very frustrated that I seem to do everything right, and I end up with garbage looking material.
Thanks!!!!
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Jan 5, 2020 14:22:33 GMT -5
Obsidian is tricky for sure.........watched the vid, the slurry action looks good...... you've stated that you are using Cerium Oxide in the polish stage, but you also state:......"Am i using the correct polish with the Cerium Oxide?"........At first glance of the vid, what I noticed was the color of the slurry. It may be a vid resolution thing, but the slurry does not have a red/pink color as it should with Cerium Oxide..........and your question is confusing, are you using the Cerium with another polish media.... combined......?
Many of us use Cerium Oxide as a polish media in vibes........a stand alone with ceramic or other filler (plastic beads, smaller softer stones, ect). I don't know of anyone mixing Cerium with another polish media during the final polish stages.....!
Another curious aspect is the amount of time you've had the Obsidian in the vibe, both during your pre-polish and polishing stages. It's been my experience with vibe applications like yours, with a 3/4 to full capacity bowl (like yours) and with smaller (polish) ceramics, my pre-polish (800 to 1200 alumina) times run 18 to 24 hours, and my Cerium Oxide only polish stages with smaller (polish) ceramics times run 18 to 24 hours as well.............this after I've run all of my rough grinding stage in rotary anywhere from 7 to 30 days (depending on the stone matrix and grinding media) being applied. My 120/220 up to 500 vibe stages with ceramics run 7 to 14 days at most.
It's just an observation, but it may be a case where your stages up to the pre-polish and polish are fine, but not using a true stand alone pre-polish Alum-Oxide and mixing Cerium Oxide with another type of polish media are causing the problems.
It's only my experience, but both the pre-polish and polish stages need to be performed with stand-alone media applications.........no mixing. Otherwise, your'e defeating the whole "polishing" aspect by re-grinding and not polishing...........just a thought.
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Post by knave on Jan 5, 2020 15:09:44 GMT -5
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Post by captbob on Jan 5, 2020 18:10:11 GMT -5
Others can handle the obsidian tumbling questions. (I prefer tin oxide for obsidian, but CO should work fine) Just wanted to say - Heck of a first post here. That's how it should be done! Welcome to the forum.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 5, 2020 18:58:42 GMT -5
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Jan 6, 2020 0:50:20 GMT -5
It should be mentioned that the OP is using a bowl vibe tumbler.......although, the two links provided by other's here, are excellent references for types of media used during specific stages of grinding/polishing Obsidian, both of those links seem to reference the use of Lot-O tumblers, which is not a bowl type vibe tumbler. Many members here who have had great success with Obsidian use Lot-O's. I'd even "go out on a limb" and state 95% of the (most) best polished Obsidian posted here at RTH has been accomplished with a Lot-O, the other 5% or so have been accomplished with BOWL VIBE's like the Thumler UV's the OP uses.......and have either used rotary tumblers or hand disc grinding for the initial rough stage(s) grinding.
Although well intended, thoughtful and somewhat helpful to the topic application, It's even more helpful (meaningful) and rewarding when suggestions (links) of previous experiences are provided that are specifically related to the application being being used by the knowledge seeker (OP) questions.
Given the OP's frustration level, I hope he (she) was (is) not to distracted or challenged by references that do not apply to their to application.........and, very fine Obsidian polishing results can be achieved without the use of a Lot-O tumbler. Bowl Vibes just take a little more practice, patients and baby-sitting through the process.
I apologize for not being able to provide a good example, "solution" (link) to a thread related to Bowl Vibe Polishing Obsidian.......there does not seem to be very many available that are "topic specific" in our archives.........And I have not posted such since my experience with Obsidian has only been two-fold. The first attempt went very wrong.......the second attempt was a re-hash of the first attempt (a re-do) that came out "nice" once I had gained experience with my Bowl Vibe (first month of using a Bowl vibe).......never posted pic's. Nice, but nothing like the Lot-O presentations here........and I lack patients, so Obsidian is not on my list of achievements.........But I can certainly help with pit-falls and what-not-to do's, if the OP is so inclined to need that type of advise......!
Also, sorry if offense has been taken by anyone active in this thread......that has not been my intent.....just trying to keep things "real" with regards to the OP's actual concerns......."Knowledge that is not shared "accurately", is wasted on the ears/eyes that receive it"......!
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jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
Posts: 44
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Post by jawsjr on Jan 6, 2020 1:13:56 GMT -5
Thank you.... I wanted to communicate the information, and I figured the aid of video and pictures as well as my own words might get the point across. I am still frustrated... But will figure this out and once I do, I will document it so I will not forget it. Others can handle the obsidian tumbling questions. (I prefer tin oxide for obsidian, but CO should work fine) Just wanted to say - Heck of a first post here. That's how it should be done! Welcome to the forum.
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jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
Posts: 44
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Post by jawsjr on Jan 6, 2020 1:20:38 GMT -5
I understand it can be tricky. I also understand the are impurities in obsidian that can ruin a batch. But on this case, my polish is 99.95% pure cerium oxide. The red is 99.5 percent pure. I have done some research on cerium oxide after I received some from one vendor that was reddish brown and some that was ivory colored from another. I discovered that the ivory is variety wit the highest purity levels. So this is what I used and it is not mixed. Obsidian is tricky for sure.........watched the vid, the slurry action looks good...... you've stated that you are using Cerium Oxide in the polish stage, but you also state:...... "Am i using the correct polish with the Cerium Oxide?"........At first glance of the vid, what I noticed was the color of the slurry. It may be a vid resolution thing, but the slurry does not have a red/pink color as it should with Cerium Oxide..........and your question is confusing, are you using the Cerium with another polish media.... combined......? Many of us use Cerium Oxide as a polish media in vibes........a stand alone with ceramic or other filler (plastic beads, smaller softer stones, ect). I don't know of anyone mixing Cerium with another polish media during the final polish stages.....! Another curious aspect is the amount of time you've had the Obsidian in the vibe, both during your pre-polish and polishing stages. It's been my experience with vibe applications like yours, with a 3/4 to full capacity bowl (like yours) and with smaller (polish) ceramics, my pre-polish (800 to 1200 alumina) times run 18 to 24 hours, and my Cerium Oxide only polish stages with smaller (polish) ceramics times run 18 to 24 hours as well.............this after I've run all of my rough grinding stage in rotary anywhere from 7 to 30 days (depending on the stone matrix and grinding media) being applied. My 120/220 up to 500 vibe stages with ceramics run 7 to 14 days at most. It's just an observation, but it may be a case where your stages up to the pre-polish and polish are fine, but not using a true stand alone pre-polish Alum-Oxide and mixing Cerium Oxide with another type of polish media are causing the problems. It's only my experience, but both the pre-polish and polish stages need to be performed with stand-alone media applications.........no mixing. Otherwise, your'e defeating the whole "polishing" aspect by re-grinding and not polishing...........just a thought.
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jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
Posts: 44
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Post by jawsjr on Jan 6, 2020 1:29:47 GMT -5
I would agree on this, but that is using a Lot-O tumbler and I am using a Thumbler's Vibe which is a bowl type. Guess I should have been more clear on that, but with showing the video, I was thinking I did not need to be clear on it. I know there is a significant difference. Maybe this is not the right tool for the job.
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Post by knave on Jan 6, 2020 2:34:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the help and correction pizzano... This may seem odd, but the difference between the loto and the uv’s is exactly what I’ve been trying to nail down, but a straight answer on the subject is hard to find. If a loto recipe does not equal, a bowl-vibe recipe, this is the first I’ve heard of it, so I thank you. Take care.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 6, 2020 9:12:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the help and correction pizzano... This may seem odd, but the difference between the loto and the uv’s is exactly what I’ve been trying to nail down, but a straight answer on the subject is hard to find. If a loto recipe does not equal, a bowl-vibe recipe, this is the first I’ve heard of it, so I thank you. Take care. First I have heard of that too. Just about every post I have seen from the UV vibe users say they are just as good as a loto. I have never heard of this discrepancy for obsidian. Makes me want to buy one just to check for myself. I do enjoy a challenge. I should also add that I have used that same recipe for dozens of batches using the loto and the mini-sonic vibe which are completely different machines and both have worked great. The important parts of that recipe are the amount of fillers used and amount of time for each stage. Other then that it is just a matter of keeping the right amount of moisture to keep the movement correct. Chuck
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
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Post by tkvancil on Jan 6, 2020 9:46:19 GMT -5
jawsjr I have a UV 18 so I think I have some insight. I think that there is not enough media in your vibe. You should be using ceramic cylinders and or small rocks. Those rubber spacers are not heavy/dense enough. Also the bowl needs to be fuller like just below the top of the center cone. In the vid I see a lot of empty space and thumlers vibes can be very aggressive. I would go back to 220 on those. Filling the extra space should stop the obsidian beating itself up. Some I did in my uv18 IMG_4582 by Ken Vancil, on Flickr
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Jan 6, 2020 10:17:38 GMT -5
I knew you would get help here Scott.... Thumbs up
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braat
spending too much on rocks
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Post by braat on Jan 6, 2020 10:54:06 GMT -5
I've never done obsidian but I just did a batch of glass in my UV10 which I understand is pretty much the same except it's nature formed vs man made. They turned out pretty good and I had the same issues as you are having. I ended up starting over at the 2nd stage (220) in the UV10 then 4 days in pre polish and 3 days in polish. I would not have had success without UV10 advice on how to adjust media action, speed etc. that I got from another member in here (rockindad). Anyways it's all here in this link, hope it's of help: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/89812/december-batch
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Post by knave on Jan 6, 2020 11:20:57 GMT -5
I enjoyed this post: Good Job! Your photos convinced me I need to give this a try after I do some glass hounding! Care to share your UV-10 mods/adjustments with all us fellow UV-10 owners?? Sure, I'll stick to concepts as the recipes change based on material being run. Also, as mentioned above, this is a stock machine as after much experimenting I felt I could get what I needed to without touching the motor, springs, weights, etc. The main variables I focus on are: 1) Fill level. This affects speed and aggressiveness. Filling up to the blue line or somewhere close will give you a fast and harsh movement, enough to shake the paint from the walls. Would only use this for the toughest of materials and even then nothing that would spall, fracture, chip, etc. easily. Typically used only during first step. Conversely, filling the bowl ALL the way to the top rim (when running it will be sucked down some) will slow the action dramatically and be much more gentle. It is completely variable between these two points so experiment with levels in between to attain the speed and attack you want. 2) Slurry thickness. This is not necessarily the same thing as moisture. The UV-10 has the ability to move some mighty thick masses that can provide much cushioning. I think I have pushed ours to the limit as we have attained a bare minimum of motion over an extended period of time without babysitting or adding water. At most we check the vibe twice a day so it is important that it can run consistently if we thicken things up. We do use a piece of sheet plastic in between the lid and the bowl and while it probably does help with moisture retention the real reason we do it is so we do not have to clean the foam on the underside of the lid, ours still looks brand new. We have a roll of plastic sitting in the basement for this and in reality it is probably a lifetime supply. At the risk of oversimplifying: thinner for faster action, thicker for more gentle. I have tried more than a few thickeners and , so far at least, prefer borax in the vibe. 3) Moisture level. The UV-10 has the ability to run with very little moisture to quite a bit without washing the grit off of the stones and having this sit at the bottom. I had the chance to really test this recently as I was away from home for work for a couple of days and didn't want to stop the vibe so we intentionally set it up pretty wet. When I was next able to check it (about 72 hours later) it was running perfectly. There are limitless possibilities when you adjust this variable along with slurry thickness. These are primarily what I concern myself with. I have pretty much eliminated burnishing as I honestly do not see much of a difference, but when I did I preferred borax to Ivory. I would always use Ivory in our rotaries but in the UV-10 it would really increase the toroidal action and cut down on the poloidal to where it looked like cars going around a racetrack. Could be I used too much but never had this issue with borax. If we do anything now it is an hour run with straight water if we feel the stones need it. Al
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Jan 6, 2020 13:49:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the help and correction pizzano ... This may seem odd, but the difference between the loto and the uv’s is exactly what I’ve been trying to nail down, but a straight answer on the subject is hard to find. If a loto recipe does not equal, a bowl-vibe recipe, this is the first I’ve heard of it, so I thank you. Take care. You'll find abstracts related to the differences with tumbling using a Bowl Vibe versus a Lot-O through out various threads related to Lot-O posts....... I have friends who use both, I use Bowl exclusively.......we have found the major differences are...: The bowl/barrel volumes are not the same. The amount of media and liquid used differs since volumes and mechanical vibe action is completely different. Lot-O tumblers are very aggressive, Bowl's are not.....thus, Bowl Vibes are not suggested for initial rough stone since it will not apply dramatic change to the stone shape. Lot-O's are recommended for all stages of grinding and polishing due to it's unique mechanical vibe action. Less liquid, grit, polishing compounds and media are required for Lot-O's....the stones themselves provide most of the work. Although fairly fast working, Bowl vibes take a little longer (depending on the stone and media type).....Lot-O's are much faster with all aspects and stages. Lot-O's cost twice as much as a good Bowl Vibe and require a little more mechanical maintenance and set-up procedures, but don't require as much baby-sitting. More often than not, final results with a Bowl Vibe will turn out just as nice as a Lot-O, but if one is "serious" about predictability, from soup-to nuts time frames, consistent "show quality" results from rough C+ to B+ grade material of almost any MOH's hardness, the Lot-O is perfect (once you get past the learning curves like everything else requires)......! It really all comes down to a personal preference.......cost, time, patience, return on investment and happiness (satisfaction)....we all have different goals, needs, abilities and determination.
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Post by knave on Jan 6, 2020 13:53:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the help and correction pizzano ... This may seem odd, but the difference between the loto and the uv’s is exactly what I’ve been trying to nail down, but a straight answer on the subject is hard to find. If a loto recipe does not equal, a bowl-vibe recipe, this is the first I’ve heard of it, so I thank you. Take care. You'll find abstracts related to the differences with tumbling using a Bowl Vibe versus a Lot-O through out various threads related to Lot-O posts....... I have friends who use both, I use Bowl exclusively.......we have found the major differences are...: The bowl/barrel volumes are not the same. The amount of media and liquid used differs since volumes and mechanical vibe action is completely different. Lot-O tumblers are very aggressive, Bowl's are not.....thus, Bowl Vibes are not suggested for initial rough stone since it will not apply dramatic change to the stone shape. Lot-O's are recommended for all stages of grinding and polishing due to it's unique mechanical vibe action. Less liquid, grit, polishing compounds and media are required for Lot-O's....the stones themselves provide most of the work. Although fairly fast working, Bowl vibes take a little longer (depending on the stone and media type).....Lot-O's are much faster with all aspects and stages. Lot-O's cost twice as much as a good Bowl Vibe and require a little more mechanical maintenance and set-up procedures, but don't require as much baby-sitting. More often than not, final results with a Bowl Vibe will turn out just as nice as a Lot-O, but if one is "serious" about predictability, from soup-to nuts time frames, consistent "show quality" results from rough C+ to B+ grade material of almost any MOH's hardness, the Lot-O is perfect (once you get past the learning curves like everything else requires)......! It really all comes down to a personal preference.......cost, time, patience, return on investment and happiness (satisfaction)....we all have different goals, needs, abilities and determination. Hmm. In my area the loto is about 1/2 price of the uv10. A person has a like new loto for a fair price I should snap it up.
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Jan 6, 2020 14:03:38 GMT -5
You'll find abstracts related to the differences with tumbling using a Bowl Vibe versus a Lot-O through out various threads related to Lot-O posts....... I have friends who use both, I use Bowl exclusively.......we have found the major differences are...: The bowl/barrel volumes are not the same. The amount of media and liquid used differs since volumes and mechanical vibe action is completely different. Lot-O tumblers are very aggressive, Bowl's are not.....thus, Bowl Vibes are not suggested for initial rough stone since it will not apply dramatic change to the stone shape. Lot-O's are recommended for all stages of grinding and polishing due to it's unique mechanical vibe action. Less liquid, grit, polishing compounds and media are required for Lot-O's....the stones themselves provide most of the work. Although fairly fast working, Bowl vibes take a little longer (depending on the stone and media type).....Lot-O's are much faster with all aspects and stages. Lot-O's cost twice as much as a good Bowl Vibe and require a little more mechanical maintenance and set-up procedures, but don't require as much baby-sitting. More often than not, final results with a Bowl Vibe will turn out just as nice as a Lot-O, but if one is "serious" about predictability, from soup-to nuts time frames, consistent "show quality" results from rough C+ to B+ grade material of almost any MOH's hardness, the Lot-O is perfect (once you get past the learning curves like everything else requires)......! It really all comes down to a personal preference.......cost, time, patience, return on investment and happiness (satisfaction)....we all have different goals, needs, abilities and determination. Hmm. In my area the loto is about 1/2 price of the uv10. A person has a like new loto for a fair price I should snap it up. If you can find a "new" Lot-O cheaper than a UV of the same capacity, grab it. It's just a personal thing, I don't buy "used" mechanical equipment (especially) lapidary unless I plan on the "un-expected", have the time and "know-how" to apply to fixes and don't plan on using the equipment for serious applications and results.........that's just me...I have enough "challenges" to keep me busy for a very long time.......lol
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 7, 2020 7:34:13 GMT -5
My Vibrasonic vibe would not do obsidian no matter how many tricks I tried. Too aggressive. Rattled the rocks at the top of the stack. After modifying by adding weight to the hopper and reducing the bouncing action at the top of the stack obsidian is a breeze using a variety of recipes.
The Lot-O did obsidian straight out of the box using several recipes.
As mentioned others have success with obsidian using the UV. Not sure about the Thumler's unit.
If it was my Thumler vibe I would fill it as high as possible to add weight to the batch to numb the vibration. If the rocks are bouncing at top of the stack you are probably going to have polish issues due to bruises(pits) on the obsidian.
"I see there it pitting in the current obsidian chunk, and truly truing to figure this out. Any help and suggestions appreciated"
Looks like you found the problem. Been there done that.
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