quartz
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breakin' rocks in the hot sun
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Post by quartz on Jan 12, 2022 23:34:05 GMT -5
forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/73985/vib-tumblerIt looks to me that the lower set of springs on the mini sonic will allow a lot more circular movement of the barrel than there would be w/o the springs; opinion. The ten inch machine is built and runs well, but with a treadmill motor, allows variable speed, it consumes way too much power. I'm working as I can to put a smaller motor on it. Being my wifes total caretaker now doesn't allow much time to do hobby stuff.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 13, 2022 8:42:24 GMT -5
Thanks for posting those marvelous machines quartz Larry. Your pivot design makes perfect sense. Forgot about the big one you built. The Mini-Sonic does mirror a pivot design, perhaps the Lot-O too. Interesting, so this large vibe you built may operate even with a smaller motor ? Is that an 8 or 10 inch PVC pipe !? Looks giant ! Looking at the the Mini-Sonic note how small the electro-magnet is. It would vibrate at 60 per second being plugged into 110 VAC. It appears that is has an no-contact electro-magnetic purely up-down attraction to the bar of metal above the electro-magnet thus generating all movement. Basically a linear motor and should result in high efficiency with no bearings or armature mass to deal with. I agree that the Mini-Sonic will make circular motion due to lower springs 'floating' the hopper and general pivot point geometry. It successfully converted linear motion to circular. Do you think a simple torsion spring design could work ? Like Porsche uses, or the front end of a VW ? Or a strip spring using firmly mounted cantilevered 1/8" x 2" strip steel ? Like a diving board... Looking for a simple spring system without using (PIA) coil springs. Looking for a way to convert linear vibration to circular or triangular or oval movement. Pretty sure Mini-Sonic did it but so many coil springs @#$%^.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 13, 2022 9:13:18 GMT -5
here are the guts of a mini sonic, forgotten the whole thing was mounted on another set of springs, wonder what that does. But the linear motion is near the middle (the tension in the middle is adjusted to change the action (spring force as well as the electro magnet?) But flexible mounts on either end , so you can see how the rocking motion is achieved. I think those rubber mounts with bolts embedded in them are readily available. I know I changed some out on a chain saw last fall and they weren't that expensive. This is real helpful oregon. That photo tells the whole story. BIG help to project. A super concise design that converts linear input to some form of circular or oval motion to stimulate rock rotation and mixing. There is a more complicated geometry than expected. I suppose the nut on the big spring is for adjustment ? Obviously Mini-Sonic designed this minimalist compact design for mass production. It appears that the electro-magnet is shaking the flat metal above the e magnet thru an air gap. The magnetic field is jumping thru air. No friction ! No contact. Sweet. Long lasting. Quiet. Using buttkickers will not allow the 'thru air' magnetic field convenience, the buttkickeer will have to make physical contact to transmit vibration. It is no less than a 'vibrating hockey puck' that must be physically bolted to the shaker arm/lever/diaphragm or whatever design is used.. Looks like 2 separate moving entities, the springs under the hopper, and the 180 degree strip spring system with 1 coil spring for driving the vibration. I hope to see a design that utilizes a strip spring like the 180 degree spring used in this system since coil springs are real tricky to work with. Just imagine if the electro-magnet could be adjusted from 30hz to 300hz instead of the fixed 60hz coming from the wall socket...and the shaking pattern can be altered at the same time...This is where Wooferhound 's mastery will shine. Controlled vibration in both speed and reversal behavior. Thanks again for that photo.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jan 13, 2022 9:56:26 GMT -5
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Post by oregon on Jan 13, 2022 12:09:38 GMT -5
>>> There is a more complicated geometry than expected. I suppose the nut on the big spring is for adjustment ? yes >>> Looks like 2 separate moving entities, the springs under the hopper, and the 180 degree strip spring system with 1 coil spring for driving the vibration. The lower set of springs are pretty flimsy, I'd venture that rather than adding heaps to the motion, this was added to keep their units from being loud, and more for keeping them stationary! The lotto needs 80 lbs or whatever to work, remarkable that this thing can shake about the same amount of rock and not walk off the bench after a couple days running. yes, I don't think the the rubber grommets on the left provide lots of motion, just enough to allow the 'J bar' to rotate. The rubber dampeners on the right do allow some. There are all sorts of these available, check amazon for example... >>> imagine if the electro-magnet could be adjusted from 30hz to 300hz instead of the fixed 60hz coming from the wall socket...and the shaking pattern can be altered at the same time... Don't you have a variable frequency drive in your stash? I *think* some of those might be able to go above 60 hz? but I'm not sure. >>>Thanks again for that photo. That makes the few expletives worth it, Dang cold weather made the plastic case non-compliant, and cold fingers... Figured it's an elegant solution. ie yeah, few wear parts! Cheers, Rick
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 13, 2022 12:27:18 GMT -5
oregon both the Mini-Sonic and the Vibrasonic and other well designed vibes are designed to contain their vibrations into the machine itself. Not to criticize the Lot-O, it must be bolted to a big mass but look how well it performs. The mission statement in this project is to utilize a variable frequency generator AND just as importantly a variable 'amplitude' generator so the vibration travel can be increased and decreased. This can be accomplished with a vibration generator like the buttkicker. This is Wooferhound 's expertise. Being in the music industry he can supply any type vibration needed AND vary the amplitude(or intensity) of the vibrations. He can make each vibe ramp up and quickly reverse(saw tooth) or make gentler vibration reversals(sine wave) and vary the rate of vibrations with his music equipment. He can vary the rate over a very wide vibration rate, like 20 hz to well over 1000 hz. This is some various vibration behavior he can feed into his speaker vibrator or buttkicker vibrator. Who knows which type of vibratory motion is best for rock polishing...: The first wave is the sine wave, the last wave is the saw tooth wave. About all vibes are driven by sine waves.: Thanks for braving the cold weather to expose the gizzards of your Mini-Sonic. The mechanical part is also a challenge.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 13, 2022 12:31:00 GMT -5
Nice vibration isolators on Amazon oregon.
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quartz
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breakin' rocks in the hot sun
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Post by quartz on Jan 13, 2022 23:17:09 GMT -5
jamesp, regarding your motor size question: The treadmill motor is rated at 2 HP, and uses near 1300 watts of juice, way overkill. It takes little power to turn a half inch shaft with a couple ounces of weight on it. Hard part is adapting a much smaller motor shaft to run a 3L belt pulley, getting there though. Mini Sonics and Loto's both pretty much make a vertical movement to get the load rolling, I've often wondered if a person was to start out at a 30 or 45 degree angle with the shaking mechanism how it would work. That's where a torsion bar setup like you described would shine I think. Torsion bar or plate driven by magnet, back to the no contact, less mechanism idea.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 14, 2022 5:21:11 GMT -5
I was curious if 1300 watts was required from the motor to run your vibe or if it was drawing much less power. But you are downsizing the motor which was good to know. Just trying to get an idea of power requirements. This buttkicker vibrator is rated at only 25 watts and just seems way under powered. But I know it can be mounted to a chair and send serious vibrations to a human sitting in the chair. It is a bit mysterious. The shaking angle is another unknown. Thanks for the tips.
I will start with a Mini-Sonic barrel or a double mounted Mini-Sonic barrels and start welding contraptions together till an appropriate geometry is found. It is a cylinder hopper with an opening pre-molded in the top. Hopefully a torsion bar arrangement can be derived.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 14, 2022 5:56:28 GMT -5
Looking at a Mini-Sonic with a it's cylinder barrel: "How Mini-Sonic Tumblers Work: The Mini-Sonic tumblers operate without shafts, belts, pulleys, eccentric weight or even a motor—no moving parts, so your tumbler will far outlast other types of tumblers. It operates on a unique principle employing interrupted electrical current that provides vibration as the driving force powering the rotation of the load. Operating frequency is 3600 vibrations per minute on 60Hz models and 3000 vibrations per minute in 50Hz Export models. Rotation and intensity is adjustable with solid-state electronic controls. During rotation, the tumbling load is alternately separated and compacted during each vibratory cycle. This improves the tumbling process and allows fresh abrasive to be drawn in between materials in the tumbler hopper. Only the contents inside the hopper actually rotate while the hopper itself remains practically motionless except for the driving arc of motion." PS If anyone knows the wattage of a Mini-Sonic please tell. Looking at using a thin wall 6" steel pipe mounted Mini-Sonic(cylinder) barrel for the working prototype. Either a single or double barrel set up. A single barrel would be simpler. Next step is to somehow figure out the geometry from there so that a linear vibrator/speaker/buttkicker will provide the motion needed to rotate the rocks. Mini-Sonic barrels mounted on the top table of a Vibrasonic that seems to deliver oval vibration motion: The shaking mechanism is the about 2 pound magnet that is yellowish in color mounted in the structural shroud. Vibration is only up and down. I went ahead and picked up an ancient function generator on EBAY at a low price. Maybe with Wooferhound 's help I can figure this thing out and feed the vibration command signal from this unit to an amplifier to drive the buttkicker so I can test mechanical designs. It is fully adjustable from 10hz to like 10,000 hz. Probably will only need 40hz to 200hz for a tumbler. It can generate sine waves(left side) and square waves(right side). Lol, hope it still works ! At 5:30 in video a vibration range test is done using a speaker to hear the vibration ranges. New electronic units are much more power efficient.
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Post by knave on Jan 14, 2022 7:39:55 GMT -5
According to my buddy electro boom on YouTube, The function generator is now an app form on a spare smartphone
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 14, 2022 9:09:36 GMT -5
I was curious if 1300 watts was required from the motor to run your vibe or if it was drawing much less power. But you are downsizing the motor which was good to know. Just trying to get an idea of power requirements. This buttkicker vibrator is rated at only 25 watts and just seems way under powered. But I know it can be mounted to a chair and send serious vibrations to a human sitting in the chair. It is a bit mysterious. The shaking angle is another unknown. Thanks for the tips. I will start with a Mini-Sonic barrel or a double mounted Mini-Sonic barrels and start welding contraptions together till an appropriate geometry is found. It is a cylinder hopper with an opening pre-molded in the top. Hopefully a torsion bar arrangement can be derived. Hmmm...was this used instead of the washing machine trick? LOL *Same effect can be had for a passenger on the back of a Harley when it's in "low gear, throttle high" to produce increased vibration in the seat. Just sayin'...
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 14, 2022 9:51:44 GMT -5
I was curious if 1300 watts was required from the motor to run your vibe or if it was drawing much less power. But you are downsizing the motor which was good to know. Just trying to get an idea of power requirements. This buttkicker vibrator is rated at only 25 watts and just seems way under powered. But I know it can be mounted to a chair and send serious vibrations to a human sitting in the chair. It is a bit mysterious. The shaking angle is another unknown. Thanks for the tips. I will start with a Mini-Sonic barrel or a double mounted Mini-Sonic barrels and start welding contraptions together till an appropriate geometry is found. It is a cylinder hopper with an opening pre-molded in the top. Hopefully a torsion bar arrangement can be derived. Hmmm...was this used instead of the washing machine trick? LOL *Same effect can be had for a passenger on the back of a Harley when it's in "low gear, throttle high" to produce increased vibration in the seat. Just sayin'... Behave Jason.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 14, 2022 9:52:53 GMT -5
According to my buddy electro boom on YouTube, The function generator is now an app form on a spare smartphone Fire that signal into an amplifier and you'd be done Evan(you might need an extra cell till your rocks finish !)
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Post by knave on Jan 14, 2022 10:00:06 GMT -5
jamespYou could dial it in with the phone once you had one you like you can export to an old iPod.
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Post by oregon on Jan 14, 2022 15:46:20 GMT -5
Mini-Sonic barrels mounted on the top table of a Vibrasonic that seems to deliver oval vibration motion: so could you just mount a flat piece of scrap steel between the vibrasonic table and your hopper mount that extended out the back, bolt the magnet shaker to that? - the vibrasonic spring mounted table should be able to handle that - you know that system works as is. - bolt the plate with the magnet closer or further away to experiment? - The linear vibration would be offset from the support springs so should produce some sort of rocking motion?
- simple
2c.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 14, 2022 16:32:51 GMT -5
jamespYou could dial it in with the phone once you had one you like you can export to an old iPod. Master of iPodity. I get it. Sure looks like a logical path. Thanks for the idea. i dig your creative use of a cell phone, amazing devices. The iPod is so familiar to many. Playing a preloaded fixed vibration tone from a selection is no different than playing a preloaded song. Wooferhound copied some EBAY links to some $12 to $20 circuit cards requiring basic wiring. Neatly packaged little amps and tone generators real cheap. They have dials on them for adjusting frequency and amplitude and even selecting various waveforms on the fly that may be simple to use when tuning each load. Something tells me he will come up with a driver setup that will have it's own tone generator or from an input from an iPod. Either way.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 14, 2022 16:52:53 GMT -5
Mini-Sonic barrels mounted on the top table of a Vibrasonic that seems to deliver oval vibration motion: so could you just mount a flat piece of scrap steel between the vibrasonic table and your hopper mount that extended out the back, bolt the magnet shaker to that? - the vibrasonic spring mounted table should be able to handle that - you know that system works as is. - bolt the plate with the magnet closer or further away to experiment? - The linear vibration would be offset from the support springs so should produce some sort of rocking motion?
- simple
2c. Come to the party with a keg ! That is a simple way to go. It may take all of 30 minutes to set that up. Check out this 'amplitude reducer counterweight' welded to the side of the Mini-Sonic hopper assembly. The bouncing wrench was used to get a rough idea of amplitude reduction for polishing glass: Note polish damaging increased amplitude without counterweight by increased wrench 'bounce': It may be that a flat plate could replace the counterweight on the side and the vibration generator could be bolted to said plate oregon. To change the amount of rotational movement of the rocks the hopper can be moved off center of the center line of the base springs. Rotational movement of rocks are greatly increased by moving hopper off center of 4 springs below hopper. Note line of holes to increase/vary mounted off set: Adjustable off set before springs were added. Easy to simply weld a flat plate to the side of this hopper, then bolt vibe generator on the plate:
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quartz
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breakin' rocks in the hot sun
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Post by quartz on Jan 14, 2022 23:25:42 GMT -5
jamesp, the 1300 watts is what the treadmill motor draws while running the machine, likely no more than idling as far as power requirement is concerned. The nature of the beast; hungry. I have a load meter and record nearly every motor I use just to see where I am at on power consumption, more out of curiosity than tightwad. I'm liking all these ideas floating about now.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2022 8:43:51 GMT -5
jamesp, the 1300 watts is what the treadmill motor draws while running the machine, likely no more than idling as far as power requirement is concerned. The nature of the beast; hungry. I have a load meter and record nearly every motor I use just to see where I am at on power consumption, more out of curiosity than tightwad. I'm liking all these ideas floating about now. With the recent popularity of these rugged bass shakers our vibratory tumblers may travel a better road. An example of a tiny bass shaker is the vibrator in a cell phone. Even they have some 'kick'. Instead of converting a(spinning)motor into a vibrating movement we are looking at a linear motor(bass shaker) that only makes vibrating movement and should make better use of the electricity Larry. Not sure but it looks that way. It may be that a small 25 watt bass shaker can do what a 100 to 300 watt motor can do. We will soon find out. Geez, the shaker I bought is only 25 watts, it uses large permanent magnets like a speaker, and can shake the heavy magnets(about 2 pounds) back and forth from 20 to 300 times per second. That is a lot of weight shaking real fast to send to a hopper full of rocks. Looking at prices of various sized shakers, they have become cheap: In addition to the shaker a controller is needed. This one puts out up to 100 watts and cost $60 and may do the job(I'd have to ask Wooferhound if it has a low enough frequency)). Some may be as cheap as $35. But you get 30-40-50-60-70-80-90-100-120-160-etc up to way over 1000 vibrations per second -and- an adjustable 'volume' or aggressiveness of vibrations. Typical speaker/shaker controller with the 2 needed adjustments - frequency and volume:
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