vance71975
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since September 2022
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Post by vance71975 on Dec 9, 2022 1:44:38 GMT -5
If yall were building a tumbler, which would you use for the barrel rods, Mild steel rods or zinc rods? Both are 1/2 in by 3ft but the mild steel is like 12 bucks per rod cheaper, thoughts? Links to the steel and zinc rods below. www.amazon.com/dp/B003X5MBME/?coliid=ISYPFT8I9KP1V&colid=1WG8PRVDIAXDG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_itwww.amazon.com/dp/B002CTUBM4/?coliid=I2LUV8KKM2P18E&colid=1WG8PRVDIAXDG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_itI have the motor already its a 1 hp Dayton and I am planning on getting a Variable Frequency Drive Controller Vector Control Inverter Converter which, if what I am told is correct this should allow me to control the RPM of the motor without having to use over sized pullys to slow the 3475 rpm it runs at down, those who know motors well, is this correct can I control the RPM with this(link below)? www.amazon.com/dp/B09P32PZ7Y/?coliid=IPUVQARSQ5BK8&colid=1WG8PRVDIAXDG&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1The rest of the stuff im getting is pretty straight forward, Pillow blocks, shaft collors, pullys, belts etc. I have plenty of wood around the house to build a cabinet or tumbler table depending on how fancy I decide to go.
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Post by liveoak on Dec 9, 2022 7:57:11 GMT -5
The VFD you're looking to use will only work with a 3 phase motor.
So unless you're 1 hp Dayton is 3 phase, no go there.
If it is a 3 phase motor:
My husband Tom says that unless you gear the tumbler down so that the motor can keep running at a decent speed,
a 3 phase motor run very slow with a VFD, can over heat.
Patty
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vance71975
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since September 2022
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Post by vance71975 on Dec 9, 2022 13:23:17 GMT -5
The VFD you're looking to use will only work with a 3 phase motor.
So unless you're 1 hp Dayton is 3 phase, no go there.
If it is a 3 phase motor:
My husband Tom says that unless you gear the tumbler down so that the motor can keep running at a decent speed,
a 3 phase motor run very slow with a VFD, can over heat.
Patty
Thank you, just saved me 75 bucks, its a 1 phase motor, I was also wrong its a 1725 rpm not 3000+. Back to the drawing board. I would really prefer to use some sort of speed controller over trying to step it down with a large pully or series of pullys but its looking like that might not be possible. Ask you hubby if he knows of any speed controllers that would work with a single phase 110v motor if you could please.
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Post by liveoak on Dec 9, 2022 13:55:13 GMT -5
No, Tom says that there is not any speed control for a single phase motor like that.
Best to find a slow speed or gear motor .
Tom says keep in mind that the final drive ratio is actually the diameter of the shaft vs the diameter of the drum.
So you don't need as large of a pulley as you think.
In other words the shaft size to the drum size is already gearing the speed down a lot.
Here's a simple pulley calculator to help you figure it out.
Patty
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vance71975
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since September 2022
Posts: 760
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Post by vance71975 on Dec 9, 2022 14:00:46 GMT -5
The Big problem I am running into is that the motor has a 3 inch pully, and to slow it down to where I want it, I would need a 34.5 inch pully on the bar. A 24 inch pully according to the calc I am using would be doable for tumbling but faster than we really want from what the calc says if you go 1725rpm on a 3 inch drive pully to a 24 inch pully on the rod that would drop it to 215 RPM. The calc only goes up to a 24 inch pully so I dont know exactly how to go about hitting the target speed I personally want which is about 150rpm. I am not super mechanically inclined, so I am not sure how to go about this. I really dont want to be trying to build around nearly a 3 foot diameter pully. The Motor is the most expensive part of the build which is why I want to use the one I have for free rather than buy one, but I really dont know how to go about slowing it down with pullys to where I need it without putting a HUGE pully on it, which creates a new set of problems in finding a belt long enough to go around the pully.
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vance71975
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since September 2022
Posts: 760
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Post by vance71975 on Dec 9, 2022 15:26:30 GMT -5
No, Tom says that there is not any speed control for a single phase motor like that.
Best to find a slow speed or gear motor .
Tom says keep in mind that the final drive ratio is actually the diameter of the shaft vs the diameter of the drum.
So you don't need as large of a pulley as you think.
In other words the shaft size to the drum size is already gearing the speed down a lot.
Here's a simple pulley calculator to help you figure it out.
Patty
liveoak thank you so much Patty, So, let me see if I got this right, If I can get it slowed down at least to under 500 rpm, the Diameter of the barrel sitting on the shafts will slow it even further? Cause if I go with a 3in pully that is already on the motor and a 12 in pully on the drive bar, that is gonna slow it down to 431.3 rpm that the bar will spin at, so the barrel will actually be going slower than that?
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Post by liveoak on Dec 9, 2022 15:42:29 GMT -5
liveoak thank you so much Patty, So, let me see if I got this right, If I can get it slowed down at least to under 500 rpm, the Diameter of the barrel sitting on the shafts will slow it even further? Cause if I go with a 3in pully that is already on the motor and a 12 in pully on the drive bar, that is gonna slow it down to 431.3 rpm that the bar will spin at, so the barrel will actually be going slower than that? Yes Vince that's right- you can calculate the actual tumbling speed by using the diameter of the rod & the diameter of the barrel, as yet another pulley reduction ratio.
why not get a smaller pulley for the motor
I know Tom buys pulley's from Surplus Center.
You might find them cheaper elsewhere, as I think their shipping can be high. But worth looking.
Starting with a smaller motor pulley, will mean you can use a smaller drive pulley & keep everything more compact.
Don't forget,Tom says, that the rod & barrel diameters give you the final drive reduction- the barrel will be turning slower than you think.
Patty
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Dec 9, 2022 16:40:09 GMT -5
1 HP is way over kill for any tumbler. As an example I use a 1/3 with 72 pounds rolling and 1/4 would have worked fine. Every diameter in the build effects the over all RPM. Every pulley, the shaft diameter and the barrel diameter. Trying to go with a speed controller setup sounds much more difficult then a one simple pulley. Seems the motor you have is driving the entire build VS getting a motor that suites the need and makes everything else easier. I have had mine running 24-7 for 10 years so electricity usage also comes into play. Smallest amp draw possible to roll the amount of rocks intended is the way to go. If you would like a copy of the Excel pulley formulation sheet I created you will need to message. A few pics from my design and build Chuck
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Post by liveoak on Dec 9, 2022 17:55:31 GMT -5
I'm not a big tumbler so I appreciate you weighing in.
That looks like a terrific tumbler you built, which obviously is still going strong.
Patty
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vance71975
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since September 2022
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Post by vance71975 on Dec 9, 2022 19:12:28 GMT -5
1 HP is way over kill for any tumbler. As an example I use a 1/3 with 72 pounds rolling and 1/4 would have worked fine. Every diameter in the build effects the over all RPM. Every pulley, the shaft diameter and the barrel diameter. Trying to go with a speed controller setup sounds much more difficult then a one simple pulley. Seems the motor you have is driving the entire build VS getting a motor that suites the need and makes everything else easier. I have had mine running 24-7 for 10 years so electricity usage also comes into play. Smallest amp draw possible to roll the amount of rocks intended is the way to go. If you would like a copy of the Excel pulley formulation sheet I created you will need to message. A few pics from my design and build Chuck Awesome build man! I know the motor is overkill, but I have the motor on hand and its free. Cant really afford 150+ for a new motor right now so having one free, well i cant refuse it.
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brybry
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Post by brybry on Dec 9, 2022 23:43:49 GMT -5
From jamespYou must know BARREL DIAMETER. (shaft diameter divided by barrel diameter) times(small pulley divided by big pulleY) times motor RPM. 7/16 = .44 so .44/barrel diameter X 2/7 x 1725 = barrel rpm. say barrel diameter is 7 inches then .44/7 x 2/7 x 1725 = 30.8 rpm for 1 inch motor pulley the speed would be cut 1inch/2inch = 1/2 x 30.8 rpm = 15.4 rpm. Again, you must know barrel diameter, it is part of the ratios of speed reduction from 1725. This is what I used to build mine.
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vance71975
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Member since September 2022
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Post by vance71975 on Dec 9, 2022 23:50:29 GMT -5
From jamesp You must know BARREL DIAMETER. (shaft diameter divided by barrel diameter) times(small pulley divided by big pulleY) times motor RPM. 7/16 = .44 so .44/barrel diameter X 2/7 x 1725 = barrel rpm. say barrel diameter is 7 inches then .44/7 x 2/7 x 1725 = 30.8 rpm for 1 inch motor pulley the speed would be cut 1inch/2inch = 1/2 x 30.8 rpm = 15.4 rpm. Again, you must know barrel diameter, it is part of the ratios of speed reduction from 1725. This is what I used to build mine. Well, as of now I only have 1 barrel, and that is a 4 inch Diameter barrel and the steel rod im going to use is 1/2 inch.
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Dec 9, 2022 23:51:00 GMT -5
As to your original question about the rolling rods, you should use cold rolled steel, no need for galvanized {zinc coated}. Another forum member showed his tumbler grinding metal at two bearings, so thinking the material was undersize I went to my local Lowes with a micrometer, he said he got his rod material at Lowes. Not to say my store and his have the same material source but I measured some pieces of 1/2" rod at -.0015 inch, acceptable for fitting into a bearing. Some of the rods ran as much as .004-.005 " undersize, not normally acceptable for use in a bearing, too loose a fit in the bearing bore. Cold rolled rod runs no smaller than .003 undersize per standard, normally .001-.002. If you don't have a micrometer perhaps a friend does, suggest measuring your choice of material to get as close as possible to the size you are going to use; assuming likely 1/2 or 5/8 inch. Or spring for cold rolled.
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brybry
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Post by brybry on Dec 9, 2022 23:53:46 GMT -5
From jamesp You must know BARREL DIAMETER. (shaft diameter divided by barrel diameter) times(small pulley divided by big pulleY) times motor RPM. 7/16 = .44 so .44/barrel diameter X 2/7 x 1725 = barrel rpm. say barrel diameter is 7 inches then .44/7 x 2/7 x 1725 = 30.8 rpm for 1 inch motor pulley the speed would be cut 1inch/2inch = 1/2 x 30.8 rpm = 15.4 rpm. Again, you must know barrel diameter, it is part of the ratios of speed reduction from 1725. This is what I used to build mine. Well, as of now I only have 1 barrel, and that is a 4 inch Diameter barrel and the steel rod im going to use is 1/2 inch. The rod diameter will be with the tubing or hose you cover the rod with. My rods are 5/8" but with the hose on it, I used 3/4".
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vance71975
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Post by vance71975 on Dec 10, 2022 0:46:29 GMT -5
Well, as of now I only have 1 barrel, and that is a 4 inch Diameter barrel and the steel rod im going to use is 1/2 inch. The rod diameter will be with the tubing or hose you cover the rod with. My rods are 5/8" but with the hose on it, I used 3/4". I was just going to wrap it with either duck tape or black electrician tape. Should provide enough grip.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 12, 2022 12:16:55 GMT -5
From jamespYou must know BARREL DIAMETER. (shaft diameter divided by barrel diameter) times(small pulley divided by big pulleY) times motor RPM. 7/16 = .44 so .44/barrel diameter X 2/7 x 1725 = barrel rpm. say barrel diameter is 7 inches then .44/7 x 2/7 x 1725 = 30.8 rpm for 1 inch motor pulley the speed would be cut 1inch/2inch = 1/2 x 30.8 rpm = 15.4 rpm. Again, you must know barrel diameter, it is part of the ratios of speed reduction from 1725. This is what I used to build mine. That's as simple as I could make the calculation brybry. One tumble I built has fat 1.5" shafts which forced the use of a large 19 inch reduction pulley. Thinner shafts really do a good job of reducing the speed, for example a 1/2" shaft cuts the barrel speed 100% as compared to a 1 inch shaft, but it takes going from a 10 inch pulley to a giant 20 inch pulley to reduce the barrel speed the same 100%. Just don't use shafts that are too thin to be strong enough to handle the barrel weight(s).
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brybry
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Post by brybry on Dec 12, 2022 14:24:53 GMT -5
From jamespYou must know BARREL DIAMETER. (shaft diameter divided by barrel diameter) times(small pulley divided by big pulleY) times motor RPM. 7/16 = .44 so .44/barrel diameter X 2/7 x 1725 = barrel rpm. say barrel diameter is 7 inches then .44/7 x 2/7 x 1725 = 30.8 rpm for 1 inch motor pulley the speed would be cut 1inch/2inch = 1/2 x 30.8 rpm = 15.4 rpm. Again, you must know barrel diameter, it is part of the ratios of speed reduction from 1725. This is what I used to build mine. That's as simple as I could make the calculation brybry. One tumble I built has fat 1.5" shafts which forced the use of a large 19 inch reduction pulley. Thinner shafts really do a good job of reducing the speed, for example a 1/2" shaft cuts the barrel speed 100% as compared to a 1 inch shaft, but it takes going from a 10 inch pulley to a giant 20 inch pulley to reduce the barrel speed the same 100%. Just don't use shafts that are too thin to be strong enough to handle the barrel weight(s). Simple worked for me.👍
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 13, 2022 8:46:51 GMT -5
That's as simple as I could make the calculation brybry. One tumble I built has fat 1.5" shafts which forced the use of a large 19 inch reduction pulley. Thinner shafts really do a good job of reducing the speed, for example a 1/2" shaft cuts the barrel speed 100% as compared to a 1 inch shaft, but it takes going from a 10 inch pulley to a giant 20 inch pulley to reduce the barrel speed the same 100%. Just don't use shafts that are too thin to be strong enough to handle the barrel weight(s). Simple worked for me.👍 The hard part of complication is putting it in simple terms. The tumbler ratio calculation is simply two fractions multiplied times the motor speed. Easiest if you divide each fraction into decimal form first. Do the shaft/barrel first, .5"/8"(.0625") or .375"/6"(.0625) or 1"/6"(.143) Then the small pulley/big pulley 2"/9"(.222) or 2.5"/12"(.208) or 2.5"/10"(.250) Then multiply the two times the motor speed - .0625(.208)(1725 RPM) = 22.4 rpm or .143(.222)(1725) = 54.8 rpm or .0625(.250)(1725 rpm) = 27.0 rpm. A chart could be made easily.
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