Bunch of different colors added w/closeup photos

[Deleted]

3000 psi is pretty easy to come by but 4000 is a different breed of cat. It is possible to get 3000 psi with a single stage pump but to get 4000 psi it would probably take a three stage pump and I doubt that you would want to pay the price for one of those. Plus, working with that kind of pressure you would have to have your vessel in a steel box to catch the fragments in case it blows. Kind of like working with split rim wheels.

I worked with 3000 psi hydraulics in the military. Most aircraft work on 3000 psi.

I did some research on an enclosed bicycle/car that would run on compressed air. Pressures of 4000 or above would be necessary and it is too damn dangerous to be sitting on top of that kind of pressure. lol You would loose more than your manhood even if it leaked and any part of your body passed over the leak. People have lost fingers feeling for a leak in a high pressure hydraulic system.
Jim

[pghram]

Could that be used in an aquarium after tumbling? The color combo would look incredible & it seems kind of appropriate to return it to the water.

Rich

[Deleted]

www.shoeboxcompressor.com/ does 4500 psi with 1/8hp motor. Just scale this up and you have a pump. The chamber is the real deal tho'.

------iron oxide not a salt, it's an oxide, my fault.

Salts are acids and metals. Sodium Chloride, Magnesium sulfate, copper nitrate are all salts

from wiki

In chemistry, salts are ionic compounds that result from the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base. They are composed of related numbers of cations (positively charged ions) and anions (negative ions) so that the product is electrically neutral (without a net charge). These component ions can be inorganic such as chloride (Cl−), as well as organic such as acetate (C2H3O2−) and monatomic ions such as fluoride (F−), as well as polyatomic ions such as sulfate.

[rockpickerforever]

Found this chart in an old (1976) book on metal finishing.  Maybe TMI, but interesting the percentage of these salts that are metal.  Percentage by weight? Volume?  Doesn't say.

[Deleted]

With vacuum all you get is 15psi to force stuff into the capillaries. 4000psi gets stuff all the way thru.

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2013 12:48:44 GMT -5 rockpickerforever said:

Found this chart in an old (1976) book on metal finishing.  Maybe TMI, but interesting the percentage of these salts that are metal.  Percentage by weight? Volume?  Doesn't say.
]

Yes, by weight. It is calculated using the molecular weights. To go into detail explaining that, first it'd be TMI for this forum, but also would require I do some homework. lol

[jamesp]

This tank is built for an extreme vacuum. I am thinking vacuum units are deceptive. In that it can be a tremendous force.

[jamesp]

Interesting chemistry discussion. I like all those different salts. Never knew the used the word salt on so many compounds...

[gemfeller]

Oct 16, 2013 20:11:28 GMT -5 jamesp said:

I am thinking vacuum units are deceptive. In that it can be a tremendous force.

Years ago, when I often acted without really thinking, I went into a frenzy of model-making for jewelry casting. I built a vacuum caster with a pump that could pull a little over 28 inches of mercury at 5,000 feet elevation. That was far below the ideal 29.92 in. at sea level but it did the job.

I made models of wax, plastic, twigs, dead bugs, acorns -- anything that would burn out in my oven. One day I hit upon the idea of using balsa wood. I made some elaborate balsa models, poured investment into the flasks and de-bubbleized them under vacuum. When I cast them and removed the investment all I could do was LMAO. I forgot that balsa is light because it contains lots of air. My wonderful models had the worst case of warts I've ever seen. All that air was pulled out and created open spaces like blisters in the investment that were filled by metal. Oh well, live and learn

Rick

[jamesp]

28 in hg is a really high vacuum. Was the vacuum chamber thick walled? Why are casting devices vacuum and not positive. I can not remember the characteristics of vacuum. I looked up ultra-vacuum and it was defined as 10 to the negative 9 power mbar's. We are considering forcing liquid into agate. Pressure or vacuum? Any ideas?

[gemfeller]

You engineering types are speaking a language I barely understand. Vacuum is routinely used in jewelry casting. My set-up incorporated a dental investment mixer that removed the air bubbles while the investment was being agitated, and a vacuum de-bubbleizer to eliminate any new air bubbles resulting from pouring the plaster into the flask and around the model inside.

The Gesswein model shown here is similar to my arrangement. I used a bell jar for de-bubbleizing then removed the jar for actual casting. It's called vacuum-assist casting; air from inside the mold is removed by the vacuum pump and atmospheric pressure forces molten metal into it.

If your coral has a network of capillaries as you say, I think a simple bell jar set-up might work, at least to test the idea. Vacuum would remove air from the coral allowing whatever dye you have in mind to penetrate the capillary system. You might have to maintain peak vacuum a while to achieve maximum dye penetration.

Just an idea.

Rick

[jamesp]

You are certainly passing me by. I am working at it. I am trying to compare the efficiency of vacuum vs pressure. I see vacuum tanks that are built so thick. It is a powerful force.
And i was thinking i could evacuate moisture and the turn around and replace it with dye or metal salts. It is a typical job for vacuum....

[jamesp]

Oct 10, 2013 19:33:38 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

Oct 10, 2013 12:13:02 GMT -5 jamesp said:

Are you going vacuum or pressure? Mel said metal-salts too. The salt is interesting. Coral in salt water has a lot of black.

Yes, metal salts. Iron salts are the soucre of all your colors.

Iron Chloride, Iron sulfate, Iron oxide, iron nitrate...

4000PSI is pressure. Vacuum max is 15psi negative.

We can take pure white coral and using super high pressures (4000psi) force the salts we want in. Then we can use Copper, magnesium, nickel, cobalt,,,,, too! Imagine green coral!

Hey Scott. I am trying to understand vacuum. I think it is very powerful force. I am thinking 15 psi is deceptive in terms of something?$@!?.

I see the thick vacuum chambers. I think absolute vacuum will cave in almost any thing, like really powerful. And efficient.

I am dwelling on it because i am not educated on the subject.

[Deleted]

15psi, then multiply THAT by the surface area of the structure.

I once designed a "monsoon chamber". Yes that was the actual working name for the product. The chamber was to be 48" tall by 48" wide by 24 front to back. The intent was to pull a tiny bit of vacuum on the chamber pump water into a rain head and turn on fans to blow wind and even fire camera flashes to simulate lightning. A buddy offered to simulate thunder with a sub woofer!

So, a monsoon in a box is good for breeding frogs. Frogs breed in storms (or just after). Pull a half inch of vacuum on the chamber and make it rain... frog love happens, and money can be made.

I figured if I built it for 2" of vacuum it would be safe. 2" of vacuum is 1psi. The 48 x 48 wall is 2304 sq inches. That is well over a ton of force on just one wall. Add it all up and you have 4.25 tons of air pressure pressing on the size sides of the chamber.

1" acrylic required. 1.5" plywood. 3/4" hurricane glass works too. Yes it adds up fast and can be very destructive. But it is still only 15psi. 4000psi is what the impregnators use to stabilize wood products. I figure stone needs at least that.

I even made a "fail safe" that would release vacuum if it somehow got over my set point. THAT was the best part! I never actually built it. The client would not spend the money.

[Deleted]

very high vacuum devices have to be made very thick and of exotic metals because oxygen can leak thru 1" mild steel plate at near perfect vacuum, ruining the vacuum. That is a special case not comparable to here. Near perfect vacuum is used for special purposes and in our case the minor leakage thru seals is not relevant.

[jamesp]

Oct 17, 2013 15:31:14 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

very high vacuum devices have to be made very thick and of exotic metals because oxygen can leak thru 1" mild steel plate at near perfect vacuum, ruining the vacuum. That is a special case not comparable to here. Near perfect vacuum is used for special purposes and in our case the minor leakage thru seals is not relevant.

So using pressure is better than vacuum?

[jamesp]

This is now 50 buckets full





About 45 more colors
www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/sets/72157636697583536/

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2013 20:39:21 GMT -5 jamesp said:

Oct 17, 2013 15:31:14 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

very high vacuum devices have to be made very thick and of exotic metals because oxygen can leak thru 1" mild steel plate at near perfect vacuum, ruining the vacuum. That is a special case not comparable to here. Near perfect vacuum is used for special purposes and in our case the minor leakage thru seals is not relevant.

So using pressure is better than vacuum?

Look at it a different way.

You understand that pipes have a pressure loss rating for every x feet and ever elbow adds it's own pressure loss. Shrink that down to nano size and the pressure loss is pretty fast. 15PSI gets used up quickly. 3-4000PSI will force the solution deeper.

Capillary action is very slow. I do not believe it applies here.

[lparker]

Oct 18, 2013 23:10:44 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

Oct 18, 2013 20:39:21 GMT -5 jamesp said:

So using pressure is better than vacuum?

Look at it a different way.

You understand that pipes have a pressure loss rating for every x feet and ever elbow adds it's own pressure loss. Shrink that down to nano size and the pressure loss is pretty fast. 15PSI gets used up quickly. 3-4000PSI will force the solution deeper.

Capillary action is very slow. I do not believe it applies here.

Looking at it in another different way: using pressure - air is still in the void/crack. There is no amount of pressure you can use to remove the air. In a high partial vacuum, the air is removed and, assuming the piece is submerged in liquid, when atmospheric pressure is suddenly introduced into the chamber, the liquid will be forced into the void/crack. --- then hit it with 4000 psi.

[jamesp]

Oh. I did not think about that lparker. That may be the reason for using vacuum for so many industrial processes.

I was thinking too that if you heated the rock to evaporate all the moisture at 180-200(avoiding boiling) then start the processing.