herchenx
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Post by herchenx on Nov 19, 2013 1:27:44 GMT -5
As some of you may recall my mega tumbler bit the dust earlier this year. It was sort of the beginning of the end (to be overly dramatic) for me with tumbling (don't worry too much, I'm working my way back in) - but the damage to the load of pet wood when it leaked was pretty profound and I have yet to really get another great batch going again. I've had it in my mind that maybe there is a way to get this thing going again and I wanted to reach out to this community made up of some amazing Do-it-yourself/maker-types to see if there was any way to salvage the barrel. I could order a replacement barrel, the company was purchased by Diamond Pacific and there is a better barrel now with the same specs, it is the 65T barrel at the bottom of the page: www.therockshed.com/tumbler5.htmlbut $270 is steep and I don't have that right now. What I *don't* want to end up doing is spending that much in a repair when I could just buy the newer version of the barrel for that price. What I am hoping I can do is repair the barrel I have. I see the inherent flaw in the design (what caused the issue to begin with) - I've taken a couple pics, using my knife to help show where the problem exists: As you probably can surmise, my ability to make things is limited. I come from a family of do-it-yourselfers, but I've never welded, never really worked with forming metal or plastic (beyond a little jewelry metal work, wire wrapping and such) - so larger-scale, can't fail, take a beating and keep on ticking is foreign to me. So, here is my hair-brained idea; can I fix this barrel by somehow repair and reinforcing the inside and outside of the bottom of the barrel and get it running again? As it turns out the base with the motor and rollers is fully functional, it just needs a new belt and some more oil; the bearings are still OK, they appear to be sealed and they run smoothly. My first idea is to cut a circle of some durable material and use some appropriately durable adhesive to cement it in place in the bottom of the barrel, then rough the whole thing up and spray a can of bed liner over everything. Perhaps do something similar on the outside, less bedliner though. Option 2 is to use some plywood and cut 2 circles, bevel the edges, coat in polyurethane, cement in place then run stainless bolts through one on the inside and one on the outside to create a super-duty bottom. The issue I see here is that the wood would wear on the inside, but I don't know if it might be something I could repair once a year and keep going. So what do you all think? Crazy? Stupid? Brilliant?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 6:19:17 GMT -5
Instead of wood.you might try some 1/2" rubber mat.similar to what weight lifters use,when they slam there weights down.i lined one of my homemede barrels w/it .it has lasted 2 years
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 6:25:38 GMT -5
As far as an adhesive. I would use 100% silicon caulk.it will take a while to cure.maybe a month or so .but waterproof. And flexible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 7:51:34 GMT -5
To start with I think you need to glue the rubber. There is a glue (I do not know the name) that fuses the rubber together and makes it as strong as it was to begin with (which was not strong enough) but there would be a problem cleaning and getting the glue into the ends of the split so more reinforcement would be necessary. My best guess there would be to find a plastic bucket the same size as the inside and another the same size as the outside. Cut a section out of the buckets to cover the split and screw them together with flat head screws so the outside would be as smooth as possible. Put some rubber cement or caulking that can be in a totally wet climate. Silicon is good stuff but you need to find one that is designed to be under water for extended periods of time.
If you had to change the inside piece every two or three tumbles it shouldn't be too difficult.
Another thing you could do on the outside is use that same glue that I referred to above and glue bands of hard rubber all the way around the tub.
I will do a little research to see if I can find the glue. Jim
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2013 8:16:08 GMT -5
That barrel is made out of polypropylene according to the link. It is not an easy material to glue. It is like polyethylene, slick and durable. But i am used to --ethylene and not so much --propylene.
I would never 'glue' --ethylene as i think it is a waste of time. Bolting a plate of plastic or wood and 'sealing' with silicone caulk is your best bet.
But tell me, i am assuming that is a crack in the bottom of the barrel. And not in the lid. if in the lid i would replace the lid w/PVC sheet. Easy.
But i think that it is a crack in the bottom of that wide mouth barrel. And it looks like it propagates over to the edge(or shoulder) of the barrel. I can tell you from the start that cracks and glued contact areas are notorious about leaking. Add 65 pounds of rock in coarse grind and the constant flexing tears up most joints.
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Post by catmandewe on Nov 19, 2013 8:24:08 GMT -5
I would fix that by buying a coriane cutting board and cut a piece to fit on the inside and a piece to fit on the outside. Use a layer of Lexel between the layers both inside and out and also add some small bolts and nuts through all 3 layers to keep everything tight and prevent it from letting stuff to get between the layers later. Lexel is a waterproof and flexible silicone, if you can't find it then silicone will work but will probably wear out faster, and with the lexel you have a limited time to work it so have everything ready. If I thought I would have a hard time gettting it together in time then I would opt for pure silicone because once the lexel skins over it doesn't adhere as good. Probably 6 or 8 bolts or machine screws, whichever you decide to use. Whatever you use the heads on the inside will probably eventually get worn off so it might be something you have to change every few years but the coriane should last a long long time.
Good luck with it..............Tony
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2013 8:58:42 GMT -5
Here is a link discussing the issues of p eth and p polyp. That glue may work but i doubt it will hold up what that tumbler will dish out. www.ehow.com/how_6404382_glue-polyethylene-plastic-polypropylene-plastic.htmlIf that crack does not go all the way to the edge your chances are much better. It would involve cutting 2 circles of say 1/4 inch pvc and drilling like 20 holes and sandwiching the the crack from the inside and the outside. With plenty of silicon caulk between all contacting layers. I would use 1/4 inch bolts and spaced equally in a typical sealed flanged connection like these pipes utilize. IF the crack does NOT propagate out to the edge. And the whole problem is huge barrel failures ruin so much rock and so much grit gets trashed. By the time i have reduced 90 pounds of my finest it would be very upsetting to have it virtually destroyed by running it in a leaked dry tumbler barrel. A slow leak is one thing but a leak that drains the barrel in 1 hour and then runs dry for 8 hours can destroy about all of your rock via half moon fractures. The bigger barrels have to be way stronger in a 'not' proportional relationship. p eth and p polyp 's are famous for cracking in the cold. I wonder if that had an effect. Tumbler barrels wear by far the most in the center of the ends. See how thin the pvc is in the center Catmandewe made a big barrel with pipe and wood ends. A wood insert caulked and bolted may do well. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/632232/quote/56106?page=4
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2013 9:02:14 GMT -5
I would fix that by buying a coriane cutting board and cut a piece to fit on the inside and a piece to fit on the outside. Use a layer of Lexel between the layers both inside and out and also add some small bolts and nuts through all 3 layers to keep everything tight and prevent it from letting stuff to get between the layers later. Lexel is a waterproof and flexible silicone, if you can't find it then silicone will work but will probably wear out faster, and with the lexel you have a limited time to work it so have everything ready. If I thought I would have a hard time gettting it together in time then I would opt for pure silicone because once the lexel skins over it doesn't adhere as good. Probably 6 or 8 bolts or machine screws, whichever you decide to use. Whatever you use the heads on the inside will probably eventually get worn off so it might be something you have to change every few years but the coriane should last a long long time. Good luck with it..............Tony This is about what i was thinking. A cutting board is a great idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 9:10:00 GMT -5
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herchenx
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Post by herchenx on Nov 19, 2013 11:00:30 GMT -5
Wow you all don't disappoint! James, yes polypropolyene. The lid side is rigid sheet metal mated to the plastic with 8 bolts and wing nuts. Right now the crack is just that section of open seam in the pic, about 3 inches in total. It was not running cold at the time, it was early summer when it went tango unicorn. A cutting board, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for that Tony. James, are you saying to use the PVC like this: Given the way the inside of the barrel is shaped I don't that would be feasible in my application; there is a large groove on either end that creates a running track on the outside, so the inside of the barrel is not one flat surface (not sure how to explain that better) Jim (wampidy) that elephant bark is sort of what I was thinking too, a gasket of sorts between all the hard surfaces and caulks. I wonder if it would be prone to breaking apart though? Maybe some rubber innertube instead if I could get a large enough circle out of it? The lid has a rubber circle cut as a gasket that works well, although it is sandwiched between metal and a hard plastic edge in that case. I'll start hitting the hardware and building supply (and kitchen!) stores to see what I can come up with. Thank you all for jumping in to help me sort this out!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2013 12:40:37 GMT -5
I understand the groove. As long as the crack is in the center of the bottom i would do what Tony (and i) said and cut to round sheets caulk and bolt them together sandwiching the crack and squeezing the caulk on both sides. I would use the biggest circle i could fit down in the barrel.
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Post by orrum on Nov 19, 2013 20:54:49 GMT -5
I am from Saltville Va. salt capital of the Confederacy nestled in the scenic heart of the Appalachians !!!!! Yes I saw Deliverance! LOL My 2 cents worth is to firdt drill a hole in each end of the split to stop further splitting. After that I like Catmandew/ Tonys coreine and super goory goo idea. You can do it John!
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grizman
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Post by grizman on Nov 19, 2013 22:08:37 GMT -5
OK John, Here's some solid advise. First of all, look very carefully at your barrel, as I think you will find that one end has an easier means of getting to the inside to get your rocks out other than using your trusty pocket knife! Maybe not, I'm just throwing out ideas! Shoot, maybe a saw would make the access to the inside easier?
I am already in trouble with Shotgunner for my silly, sick sense of humor, so please forgive me. Too often no one can tell if I am really that stupid, or just plain dumb! Right, Shotgunner?
I am with the idea that maybe actually roughing up the edges of the break or split, especially where it ends or goes back to solid material. Maybe a small round file for the ends of the split and a flat file to roughen up the edges. I'd hope the enlarged split area as well as the roughened up surfaces may help the silicon or chosen adhesive, to stick better. Then on to the next step, the rigid circles for the inside and outside. If the reenforcement material is thick enough, maybe you can counter sink the screw heads or bolt heads that may be on the inside. It would also work for the nuts if they will be inside. This will prevent the rocks from knocking them off as they tumble.
What ever you do, I hope it works for you. What a shame not to make use of such a great tumbler. I also hope you got by my smartazz before you stopped reading!
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snuffy
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Post by snuffy on Nov 19, 2013 22:36:40 GMT -5
Hey John. Get a spray can of plastidip.Also some fiberglass mesh.Spray the area with a coating of plastidip,and and apply a piece of the mesh,imbedding it in the plastidip..repeat after it hardens,and spray again to coat,and apply more mesh.Do this as many times as you think is necessary.Idid this to my 35 lb barrel,and works fine. snuffy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 22:59:20 GMT -5
I am already in trouble with Shotgunner for my silly, sick sense of humor, so please forgive me. Too often no one can tell if I am really that stupid, or just plain dumb! Right, Shotgunner? Hell Yeah!! edited to add: Wait a minute? You ain't in trouble with me! Nobody is EVER in trouble with me.
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Nov 19, 2013 23:05:52 GMT -5
I've no idea of how corian, as Tony mentioned, works in an abrasive environment. I do know plastic cutting board material works very well, the white stuff used in a lot of food prep areas. I've scavenged pieces for cheap a couple times when it was replaced at stores in town, knew people that worked there. The stuff cuts about like wood. Just tossed this out as an alternate idea. Whatever mtl. you use, if you bolt thru [good idea] I would suggest using carriage bolts to get a bigger and flatter wear surface on the inside. Nothing really glues [welds] polypropylene except heat, I've had good luck with a product called "Weld" adhesive. Sticks better than any of the gobs of other things I've tried. Good luck, Larry
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