Stupid question

[amyk]

I have read all these posts and did not find an answer to my question.
(it seems to be one of those things that is so simple and basic, but some how I guess I was out sick that day.)
I took a silver smithing class and we did not use one.
My question is-----What does pickling do to the metal? Or rather, Why do we pickle?
To pickle or not to pickle? That is the question.

Amy

[tomcloss]

Amy,
There is no such thing as a stupid question in my opinion. Also when it comes to Metal Smithing there are a lot of questions. Many smiths I've asked questions to simply do things a certain way because that's how they were taught.

Pickeling does a couple of things.

1. It cleans off remaining flux after soldering.
2. It removes oxidation caused during soldering.
2. Pickle also draws copper out of the surface of the silver. (If your using fine silver there this doesn't happen)

Some people will depletion gild there sterling piece leaving a layer of fine silver on the surface to help prevent tarnish.
Before you ask depletion gilding is the process of heating the silver to cause oxidation. pickling the piece and repeating this process several times to build up the outside layer.

Keep in mind if you depletion gild a piece be careful nut to sand or buff through the newly created fine silver layer.

Hope this helps.
Tom

[amyk]

Thank you very much Tom. That does help a lot.

Amy

[kk]

I don't do metalwork, but have seen the term often enough to know where its used.

But thus far, had never seen an explanation as to what it really does.
Thanks for such a simple explanation that even I can understand.

[rockjunquie]

tomcloss, Do you know if bought some bought silver is depletion gilded for storage before sale? Some newly purchased silver seems to stay tarnish free longer than freshly worked silver. AND, I'm wondering abt Italian silver which is renowned for it's resistance to tarnish. 

[radio]

You can also buy Argentium Silver which is very tarnish resistant. I dislike working with it though as it is less forgiving than Sterling when soldering.

[gemfeller]

Tell us more about Italian silver Tela. I've never heard of its tarnish resistance.

Radio is on point about the tarnish resistance of Argentium silver. It's a fairly new alloy, 92.5% silver, just like Sterling, but instead of copper it's alloyed with germanium which prevents tarnish and fire scale from soldering. But working it is different from Sterling and it requires some special techniques, like "hardening" it in an oven at 500-525 degrees F. for an hour and a half before shaping and soldering it.

There are a couple of other new silver alloys. Trademarked Sterlium Plus also contains germanium and doesn't require rhodium plating to maintain a tarnish-free surface. It also should be hardened before use (600 degrees F. for about an hour). I haven't used it but it's said to be harder than Sterling for prong-setting but can't be used for certain purposes like mokume gane or reticulation.

Stuller Settings has also developed a trademarked and updated silver alloy, Continuum Sterling Silver. The descriptions I've read say it's over 95% precious metal instead of Sterling's 92.5%. It contains no nickel and the manufacturer claims it's both tarnish resistant and close to the hardness of 14K white gold, allowing for the setting of important stones without worries about loss. Regular Sterling is much softer. But the hardening process for Continumm is a bit more involved than for Argentium or Sterlium Plus. Stuller says it can be enameled, fused without solder, reticulated and cast.

Rick

[rockjunquie]

Jan 2, 2014 21:17:08 GMT -5 gemfeller said:

Tell us more about Italian silver Tela. I've never heard of its tarnish resistance.

Radio is on point about the tarnish resistance of Argentium silver. It's a fairly new alloy, 92.5% silver, just like Sterling, but instead of copper it's alloyed with germanium which prevents tarnish and fire scale from soldering. But working it is different from Sterling and it requires some special techniques, like "hardening" it in an oven at 500-525 degrees F. for an hour and a half before shaping and soldering it.

There are a couple of other new silver alloys. Trademarked Sterlium Plus also contains germanium and doesn't require rhodium plating to maintain a tarnish-free surface. It also should be hardened before use (600 degrees F. for about an hour). I haven't used it but it's said to be harder than Sterling for prong-setting but can't be used for certain purposes like mokume gane or reticulation.

Stuller Settings has also developed a trademarked and updated silver alloy, Continuum Sterling Silver. The descriptions I've read say it's over 95% precious metal instead of Sterling's 92.5%. It contains no nickel and the manufacturer claims it's both tarnish resistant and close to the hardness of 14K white gold, allowing for the setting of important stones without worries about loss. Regular Sterling is much softer. But the hardening process for Continumm is a bit more involved than for Argentium or Sterlium Plus. Stuller says it can be enameled, fused without solder, reticulated and cast.

Rick

Italian silver jewelry esp the chains are known to have great finishes that resist tarnish. At least, the better stuff is. I have heard this said for years and have experienced it myself. Their chains really hold up.

I hadn't heard of the other silvers that you mentioned other than Argentium. I wonder if they will make any headway the way Argentium has. I tried Argentium for awhile and I wasn't crazy abt it. I don't like the brittleness of it for one. I bought an ounce of 1/2 hard 1/2 round that was unusable. It snapped off at the the slightest bend. I think reg sterling works better, for wire wrapping, anyway. And, although Argentium doesn't tarnish the way reg sterling does, it does get a dull matte look to it. I just prefer to stick with sterling. I will say, however, that I do like to use Argentium to fuse with. But, now that I am soldering, I don't need to fuse.

[1dave]

Really great information!

[tomcloss]

I'll try and answer a few questions here without quoting forgive.

I'm not familiar with the Italian silver make up. As mentioned previously there are other Silver alloys on the market. The cause of tarnish is copper oxidation so the less copper in the alloy the less it will tarnish.

I am quite familiar with Argentium silver both 935 and 960 both of these have higher silver content and less copper content (%93.5 and %96.0 respectively). Keep in mind as you are learning each alloy you work with will act a little different. I recommend choosing one and sticking with it before switching back and fourth.

Tom

[radio]

I have never been able to find anything definitive on Italian Sterling and why it is more tarnish resistant, but Sterling is Sterling.  That being said, I have long suspected that Sterling items made in China and Mexico are alloyed more than they should be and are not .925 even though they are marked as such.  One main thing comes to mind when someone says "Italian Sterling" and that is quality.  I suspect that most if not all Companies there Rhodium plate the Silver for added tarnish resistance and to further the reputation of high quality jewelry from Italy.

In the past, I have bought chains from different suppliers and have found that chains made in Italy are far superior in quality than any others I have found.  The suppleness of the chains is just heads and shoulders above others in my personal experience.  In direct comparison, many others feel stiff and will kink easily and the clasps do not operate as smoothly.

Another thing that makes me angry to no end is unscrupulous people selling all sorts of "Silver" and passing it off as Sterling to unsuspecting customers.  Most of it is Nickel Silver which contains absolutely 0 percent Silver.  I have heard it described as German Silver, Mexican Silver, Tibetan Silver, Argentine Silver, Argentan Silver and a host of other names which infer that it is as valuable and pure as Sterling.  Many people will just outright lie and sell it as Sterling and I have even known a couple of people that go so far as to import cheap Nickel Silver pieces then stamp them .925

I'm off my soapbox now.  Please carry on

[tomcloss]

I agree with Radio. Which is why you need to buy your silver from a trusted source. Also if the deal is to good to be true.... It probably is.

Another note I thought of is polishing with ZAM seems to add a protective coat to the silver and there other coatings which will help keep moister from getting directly to the silver which helps prevent the oxidation / tarnish.

[gemfeller]

Jan 3, 2014 10:07:27 GMT -5 radio said:

I have never been able to find anything definitive on Italian Sterling and why it is more tarnish resistant, but Sterling is Sterling. 

I happen to be acquainted with a prominent and very knowledgeable jeweler in Rome. I'll ask him and will post any information gained here.

Italian chain-making is world-famous. Italian chain manufacturers developed specialized machinery for the process and created a big industry. Interesting fact: while Italy is the world's largest producer of 14 karat gold chains, any gold sold in Italy must be 18 karat or higher. So the bulk of Italian-made chains are exported.

Rick

[rockjunquie]

Jan 3, 2014 14:06:36 GMT -5 gemfeller said:

Jan 3, 2014 10:07:27 GMT -5 radio said:

I have never been able to find anything definitive on Italian Sterling and why it is more tarnish resistant, but Sterling is Sterling. 

I happen to be acquainted with a prominent and very knowledgeable jeweler in Rome. I'll ask him and will post any information gained here.

Italian chain-making is world-famous. Italian chain manufacturers developed specialized machinery for the process and created a big industry. Interesting fact: while Italy is the world's largest producer of 14 karat gold chains, any gold sold in Italy must be 18 karat or higher. So the bulk of Italian-made chains are exported.

Rick

That would be really awesome! Thanks. I love Italian silver. Knowing the secret might help me in my own work.

[gemfeller]

Jan 3, 2014 15:04:13 GMT -5 rockjunquie said:

Jan 3, 2014 14:06:36 GMT -5 gemfeller said:

I happen to be acquainted with a prominent and very knowledgeable jeweler in Rome. I'll ask him and will post any information gained here.

Italian chain-making is world-famous. Italian chain manufacturers developed specialized machinery for the process and created a big industry. Interesting fact: while Italy is the world's largest producer of 14 karat gold chains, any gold sold in Italy must be 18 karat or higher. So the bulk of Italian-made chains are exported.

Rick

That would be really awesome! Thanks. I love Italian silver. Knowing the secret might help me in my own work.

Well, the "secret" is apparently also a secret to Italian goldsmiths. It relates to the point I made earlier about exports of Italian-made chains. Here's the response I received:

"There’s a real split between stuffs we made for export and for internal use here, more or less it’s just like to say the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing.
We (still) have 2 districts producing almost exclusively for export and we (here) are (funnily) not familiar with those stuffs, alloys and so on. So, to make the story short, if we are talking about export stuffs there’s no way I can know more details about it.
Silver produced for internal use is in big part the old copper alloy stuff, sometimes rhodium plated. Some “brands” tend to produce silver-palladium stuffs and that is really cool but quite expensive."

So the "secret" remains a secret, at least to me.

Rick

[rockjunquie]

Thank you. Well, I guess it is safe to assume they do a lot of plating in their silver. Anyway you slice it, they do beautiful work. I'll buy an Italian chain over any other.

[radio]

Jan 3, 2014 13:14:36 GMT -5 tomcloss said:

Another note I thought of is polishing with ZAM seems to add a protective coat to the silver and there other coatings which will help keep moister from getting directly to the silver which helps prevent the oxidation / tarnish.

Thanks for mentioning that.  It completely slipped my mind in the post above   I use Zam for polishing all my silver work and even use it on Turquoise with great results.  The trick there is to buff it so you get just enough friction heat to seal the stone really well.  Only time will tell, but I'm pretty sure it will help stave off the absorption of chemicals into the stone and help keep blue Turquoise from turning green, at least hopefully for a few more years than if Zam wasn't used.  I did have one person tell me Zam turned his Turquoise green, but I've been using it for close to 10 years and have not had that happen to me.........yet anyway

I also use anti tarnish tabs and always send the customer home with a small plastic bag and instructions on how to keep their silver shiny