herchenx
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Post by herchenx on Jan 14, 2014 14:07:22 GMT -5
I'm curious, as I've been trying to make sure I stay on the straight and narrow I keep encountering the language "collecting is allowed for personal, non-commercial use. Any commercial use requires a permit" - but nowhere I look indicates the cost or terms of said permits.
EDITED TO ADD: This is generally for state and federal land, and there are a lot of specific rules that vary. Additionally I am not asking about commercial claims, just surface collecting on public land. END EDIT
Generally speaking, pet wood in Colorado, Nebraska, Wyoming and Utah is restricted to 25 pounds per day per person for non-commercial use, and to 250 pounds per year for the same (with some special cases for trophy wood)
Additionally, many materials other than vertebrate fossils may be collected for personal use.
So I'm wondering about cabbing and selling some of the pretty stuff I find. So far I've either given it away or kept it for my personal collection (including yard rocks) - but some of the stuff looks great and it would be nice to be able to sell some to pay for gas etc.
Has anyone purchased any of these permits? I tried last summer for one spot and the best I could do was get a verbal OK from a state geologist to sell cabs I cut for jewelry (it didn't seem worth his time to deal with the paperwork of a permit). I would like to stay within the law though, so in other areas I might look, if I wanted to cab and sell some, how much have these types of permits historically cost?
I'm just trying to get a little education, not stir the pot, so hopefully this is a good topic to cover.
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Post by johnjsgems on Jan 14, 2014 14:49:18 GMT -5
As far as I know the only commercial permit is a claim. Surface collecting would be a placer claim. You could check at a BLM office or appropriate state office. When I tried to get a claim BLM had so many hurdles I asked him how could anyone get a small claim. He said just go collect it. If you don't show up with a backhoe and dump truck I think you will be OK hobby collecting and selling some.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 15:49:21 GMT -5
I think nobody bothers.
In Cali the pet wood rule is 250# plus ONE PIECE per year. No smaller daily limit to my knowledge.
=========== scenario
It's not uncommon to see rockhounds with 500# of materials they hounded. The purpose of collecting was non-commercial, no doubt.
But sometime later they may/could change their mind and sell some.
Do you get the picture I just painted? Unless someone is actively pursuing a commercial venture with marketing and such, then the law is too easily got around to be useful. That is reasonable doubt is too easily injected into the conversation. No cop will enforce a law that is so easily defended against. Thus vague laws are unenforceable
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Post by rockpickerforever on Jan 14, 2014 16:04:54 GMT -5
Was speaking with a person of authority on Sunday, about mining laws - what's legal, what's not, what equipment can be used, etc. He said that there is an 11th commandment many people are not aware of - don't get caught...
So before a cop can attempt to enforce a vague law, you have to get caught first.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 14, 2014 17:30:13 GMT -5
John, you're not going to be offended by the answers you get and leave the site, are you?
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Jan 14, 2014 17:50:18 GMT -5
I guess I was always told to just not go "hog wild" on material....Never heard of any laws on amounts collected,except for petwood..Seems its the same everywhere,like Scott says on the pounds per year and etc.!(let others reap the glory too,unless on a claim)......
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 14, 2014 18:35:35 GMT -5
Tough question. Years a go I phoned the BLM folks about collecting in the Cady Mountains. They told me what John said, for commercial use you need an actual claim. When pressed, and believe me the guy did not want to give a straight answer, he defined "personal use" is no more than a day pack full of material per day with no clarification on pack size, multi-day totals etc. That being said, I've never in all my trips, encountered or been questioned about rock collecting by a BLM ranger in the Cadys and I've collected there for over forty years.
Regarding cabbing your material to sell, I'd say that is wide open for many reasons. #1 a cab can come off a relatively small rock, well within limits and being a finished product I'd not think BLM etc would be interested as there is just too much of it. #2 Not enough enforcement folks to mess with it, as is obvious by the commercial raping of areas and selling of rough on E-Bay. And #3 most of all, I don't think most BLM folks know one rock from another enough to certify a particular stone came from a particular site unless you tell them. I suppose this could be problematic when you identify a stone you are selling but they cannot prove whether you self collected it or bought it on E-Bay or at a show etc.
It mostly becomes a question of personal ethics. If you go to a site and really collect heavily with intent to sell what you're collecting, and basically screw over the next rockhound to come along because you cleaned out the site for sale ( ala Burro Creek and many places in the Cadys) a pox on your house. You are a commercial collector and as such are breaking the law. If you collect a reasonable amount but maybe swap or sell a little extra rough, slabs or cabs to pay for something you need, heck that's kind of what the hobby is about and I'd not feel guilty about it.......Mel
PS: What's kind of funny if you think about it is, since rocks don't rot, think abut how many times a particular piece of rough has been sold, traded, or given away over the years. Lets face it, seeing as how sawing and cabbing rocks takes right next to forever, even small collectors rapidly accumulate way more rock than they will ever work up. And most rockhounds are old farts anyway. So, we croak over, leave a rockpile, somebody gets it till they sell some, swap some, give some away, or croak over, then it goes on to the next lucky owner. I know for certain some of my material is on about it's third owner and it won't end with me cause I'll never cut a fraction of it much less cab it all *L*.
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herchenx
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Member since January 2012
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Post by herchenx on Jan 14, 2014 20:12:52 GMT -5
John, you're not going to be offended by the answers you get and leave the site, are you? I'm offended by the answers I've received and am leaving the site. I've put another email into the guy at the BLM office (found the old notes I'd taken a couple years back). Previously I'd asked about agate specifically in one area, and he told me that the cost to determine the value of what I would be collecting could never be justified (there was a survey involved) - I shot high and said I wouldn't be collecting more than a pickup-bed full of rock a year (as much as I've collected, that was a gross overstatement) - and he said if anyone had any issues with me selling stuff made from what I collected they could talk with him. As it turns out I've yet to sell anything with stones I've collected up there, but my intent is still to try, plus the pet wood I've found would look great as a cab!
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herchenx
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Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
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Post by herchenx on Jan 15, 2014 12:56:57 GMT -5
Another call to another government official yielded the following: "We don't care about small amounts of non-precious minerals taken in surface collecting, we don't want landscapers and large commercial operations digging and hauling away tons of rock and not paying for it and not doing any reclamation work, so you are OK to collect on [government] land"
I am being deliberately vague, as this should not be taken as legal advice or blanket permission to haul away rock to your heart's content, but from at least 2 separate agencies (one state, one Federal) I've heard similar things.
It is sounding like exactly what folks are saying; don't be a jerk and clean out an area. Limited amounts for personal use are OK (which seems to loosely include personal selling of jewelry). To be absolutely safe you shouldn't sell, but if you stay small and reasonable you are outside the targeted group for commercial selling.
I will do more calling to some other states and find out if they have similar rationales.
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Post by socalagatehound on Jan 15, 2014 13:35:06 GMT -5
This and that, but on this subject (hope some of this helps)... I have also never had a problem with personal collecting as long as its a reasonable amount. Nationally, the BLM views that as a trunk-load, but each district is different. BLM rules do state that selling or bartering material collected off Federal Lands is illegal without a claim. Selling slabs might be a gray area, but you do contribute value by cutting it, and selling rough might be illegal but is seldom if ever enforced. You are allowed to have a "once in a lifetime sale of a personal collection". Therefore, the "acquired in an estate sale" tag. I think that the question of cabbing up self collected material also involves your personal work and talent that's put into the piece. You can sell the cab based on the value of that and not the material.....so sky's the limit for cabbing...
Some local BLM offices are stricter than others. The office governing the Cady Mountains is one of the strictest in the US. Individual BLM office directors have discretion to enforce their own interpretations of rules. I was told this by a visiting director from AZ who was hounding with his family in the Cady's. A trunk-load in New Mexico might be a day-pack full in Southern California. I hear the Cady's rule is due to the proximity to the massive population of Los Angeles, San Bernardino and Orange Counties.
I have read reports by collectors busted for exceeding the petrified wood collecting rules. Stiff fines there, including confiscating your vehicle, so be careful, especially in National Forests, where they have more rangers available for enforcement. Here in the Cuyamaca National Forest (San Diego area), they write lots of parking tickets. (You're not allowed to park without a day pass displayed.) They apparently do quite well with it, since the ticket guys have brand new 4x4 trucks. So I don't think they'd hesitate to enforce other rules as well.
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 15, 2014 16:38:43 GMT -5
This and that, but on this subject (hope some of this helps)... I have also never had a problem with personal collecting as long as its a reasonable amount. Nationally, the BLM views that as a trunk-load, but each district is different. BLM rules do state that selling or bartering material collected off Federal Lands is illegal without a claim. Selling slabs might be a gray area, but you do contribute value by cutting it, and selling rough might be illegal but is seldom if ever enforced. You are allowed to have a "once in a lifetime sale of a personal collection". Therefore, the "acquired in an estate sale" tag. I think that the question of cabbing up self collected material also involves your personal work and talent that's put into the piece. You can sell the cab based on the value of that and not the material.....so sky's the limit for cabbing... Some local BLM offices are stricter than others. The office governing the Cady Mountains is one of the strictest in the US. Individual BLM office directors have discretion to enforce their own interpretations of rules. I was told this by a visiting director from AZ who was hounding with his family in the Cady's. A trunk-load in New Mexico might be a day-pack full in Southern California. I hear the Cady's rule is due to the proximity to the massive population of Los Angeles, San Bernardino and Orange Counties. I have read reports by collectors busted for exceeding the petrified wood collecting rules. Stiff fines there, including confiscating your vehicle, so be careful, especially in National Forests, where they have more rangers available for enforcement. Here in the Cuyamaca National Forest (San Diego area), they write lots of parking tickets. (You're not allowed to park without a day pass displayed.) They apparently do quite well with it, since the ticket guys have brand new 4x4 trucks. So I don't think they'd hesitate to enforce other rules as well. I agree that it all depends on where you are at. I was stopped and questioned by two armed BLM officers just out side of Las Vegas about 4 years ago. They wanted to know what I was collecting, what I did with it, was I selling it, etc. I had an open bed pickup with about 50 pounds of rock in the back so they said I had already exceeded my limit of 25 pounds per day per person, although I did have a friend with me, which would make 50 pounds alright. Since they did not have a scale to prove if I was over or not though there was really not much they could do anyway. As far as confiscating trucks or any other personal property something to keep in mind is that this is illegal. Constitutional law overrides and federal or state laws. Under Constitutional law you cannot be be deprived of property without due process. Therefore, any confiscation of personal property without having your day in court first actually constitutes criminal acts of theft and larceny. After all you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. So your property cannot be legally taken without first proving in a court of law that you had committed a crime in the first place. Since law enforcement agency personnel are not above the law they are subject to arrest just like any other suspected criminal. I have never seen anyone ever take it to this levels though probably in part because most people do not understand the law and the fact that all citizens are subject to the same laws, even police and judges who try to illegally give themselves immunity. Most attorneys or individuals who do know something about the law generally just file a motion for the return of the illegally obtained property pending the outcome of the trial.
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Post by parfive on Jan 15, 2014 17:03:17 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 17:27:22 GMT -5
As far as confiscating trucks or any other personal property something to keep in mind is that this is illegal. Constitutional law overrides and federal or state laws. Under Constitutional law you cannot be be deprived of property without due process. Therefore, any confiscation of personal property without having your day in court first actually constitutes criminal acts of theft and larceny. After all you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. So your property cannot be legally taken without first proving in a court of law that you had committed a crime in the first place. Since law enforcement agency personnel are not above the law they are subject to arrest just like any other suspected criminal. I have never seen anyone ever take it to this levels though probably in part because most people do not understand the law and the fact that all citizens are subject to the same laws, even police and judges who try to illegally give themselves immunity. Most attorneys or individuals who do know something about the law generally just file a motion for the return of the illegally obtained property pending the outcome of the trial. Tell that to drunk drivers. They are routinely guilty until they prove themselves innocent. In daily practice people have their property confiscated on a daily basis without due process. I guarantee you that if an officer decides you have broken a law he will confiscate the rocks as evidence and depending on his agency may very well take the truck and your wallet too.
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 15, 2014 21:37:13 GMT -5
As far as confiscating trucks or any other personal property something to keep in mind is that this is illegal. Constitutional law overrides and federal or state laws. Under Constitutional law you cannot be be deprived of property without due process. Therefore, any confiscation of personal property without having your day in court first actually constitutes criminal acts of theft and larceny. After all you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. So your property cannot be legally taken without first proving in a court of law that you had committed a crime in the first place. Since law enforcement agency personnel are not above the law they are subject to arrest just like any other suspected criminal. I have never seen anyone ever take it to this levels though probably in part because most people do not understand the law and the fact that all citizens are subject to the same laws, even police and judges who try to illegally give themselves immunity. Most attorneys or individuals who do know something about the law generally just file a motion for the return of the illegally obtained property pending the outcome of the trial. Tell that to drunk drivers. They are routinely guilty until they prove themselves innocent. In daily practice people have their property confiscated on a daily basis without due process. I guarantee you that if an officer decides you have broken a law he will confiscate the rocks as evidence and depending on his agency may very well take the truck and your wallet too. Confiscating rocks as evidence is not the same thing as taking your property through asset forfeiture. If they take the rocks as evidence they are simply going to argue that you are in possession of state or federal property and therefore they have the right to confiscate their property you are stealing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 21:59:36 GMT -5
Tell that to drunk drivers. They are routinely guilty until they prove themselves innocent. In daily practice people have their property confiscated on a daily basis without due process. I guarantee you that if an officer decides you have broken a law he will confiscate the rocks as evidence and depending on his agency may very well take the truck and your wallet too. Confiscating rocks as evidence is not the same thing as taking your property through asset forfeiture. If they take the rocks as evidence they are simply going to argue that you are in possession of state or federal property and therefore they have the right to confiscate their property you are stealing. And that your truck is fruit of a criminal enterprise. That is why illegals drive beater cars. If it gets confiscated they'll just buy another.
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 15, 2014 22:12:24 GMT -5
Confiscating rocks as evidence is not the same thing as taking your property through asset forfeiture. If they take the rocks as evidence they are simply going to argue that you are in possession of state or federal property and therefore they have the right to confiscate their property you are stealing. And that your truck is fruit of a criminal enterprise. That is why illegals drive beater cars. If it gets confiscated they'll just buy another. Original point is that property being taken by asset forfeiture prior to receiving due process is an illegal act. That is why you can also petition the court for a return of your property until you have due process and the court will order the return that property until it is decided if you are innocent or guilty at which time you either get to keep your property or have it taken away again.
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Post by catmandewe on Jan 16, 2014 1:50:41 GMT -5
I have. Different areas have different things that are available with commercial permits. Shoshone Idaho has a pit that you can purchase lava rock blocks for landscaping and building stones for $5 per ton. You can use heavy equipment to remove it. In North Idaho you can buy permits to dig or dredge garnet sand out of the creek beds for making sandpaper and grits, etc. Those permits are sold by the yard, Almost everyone knows about Davis Creek obsidian, it is a commercial permit that you can buy from the Modoc National Forest service for $32 per yard but no mechanized equipment is allowed in this area. There is a commercial permit area for petrified wood somewhere in Arizona in which you pay by the ton. I am not that into the arizona wood so I never did check into it as to area and price.
And of course there are claims that can be filed but one of the criteria is that you have to be able to prove that you can get a marketable item off of the claim. That is very open to interpretation and could be a loophole from either end. Most govt offices do not really check out your claims as long as your check is good it is all good.
I don't sell any material I self collect for fun. It all goes into a different pile and I have given quite a bit away but I have never sold any of it. I only sell stuff I have gotten with commercial permits, from one of my claims, or I have bought from estates or other claim owners.
It all boils down to interpretation of the laws/rules (not all of the rules they enforce are actually laws) and what kind of day the enforcing officer is having. Good luck with it.............Tony
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kaldorlon
spending too much on rocks
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Post by kaldorlon on Jan 16, 2014 8:18:47 GMT -5
I have enjoyed this post...although I have nothing to add..
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gerard
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by gerard on Jan 16, 2014 12:50:26 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 13:34:57 GMT -5
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