After We Die.

[grayfingers]

Have you heard the one about the Dyslexic Agnostic who lies awake nights wondering if there is a Dog?

[rockpickerforever]

You forgot the "insomniac" part, lol.

[1dave]

Jul 24, 2015 10:45:34 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

Jul 24, 2015 1:23:39 GMT -5 1dave said:

Hi Scott, thanks for entering the discussion which many find uncomfortable.

I knew a lot of very talented people who made steel at Geneva Steel in Orem Utah.
When it was shut down, all that knowledge was trashed. I consider that a waste.

After billions of years a fabulous gemstone works its way to the surface of the earth,
but some stupid politician makes it illegal to pick it up, so it is buried never to be seen again.
That I consider a waste.

So far, what I have presented has nothing to do with religion, only recorded experiences from "normal" individuals.

Actually, you did bring religion in in your very first post. I was responding to this:

Some believe life disappears on death, like a fire going out. There is no data to support that notion.
Either there is intelligence in the universe, or there is not. Do we continue after death?
If the atheists are right, then this life is a total waste, without purpose or meaning.

Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/71544/after-die?page=1#ixzz3gpA3EFfY

And in response to your gemstone anecdote, I suggest civil disobedience is in order. God fearing or not, civil disobedience will be celebrated in the afterlife!

I know a few "religious folks" who do not believe in life after death, so I don't see that as "religious.

but as they say in NLP

The meaning of your communication is the response you receive.

So I guess it is.

My previous comment was definitely religious, as will be my next on how Islam is the polar opposite on death from Christianity.

[Deleted]

It appears that I have pissed off a group of people on here and now I am invisible ;) to them. I have dreamed of being invisible so I can poke fun at others and they do not have a clue why they are laughing.

So here goes, the gloves are off, I am going to spread my humor around and nobody will know where it came from or who put it here.










I hope ya'll could not see this like my other recent posts because my humor may piss off some folks.
Happy trails to you and a good weekend.
Jim

[Sabre52]

Too many obnoxious Bible thumping preachers in my family, so I'm a Deist. Don't need no propaganda books written by "men" and interpreted by "men" to tell me what to believe. Think clever snake oil salesmen folks created religions to control other folks and make a living off them. Don't trust any organized religion. If I want to talk with God, me and him don't need no parasite sky pilot to be a go between. We talk face to face usually when I'm horseback out in nature. Though, I got to admit, he is an awesome listener but not much for conversation *S*.....Mel

[mohs]

For being "hypothetical," they sure have a lot of data. We spirits seem to be multiplying - or evolving?

I find this interesting
do I read the theory right?

according to calculation
dark matter is decreasing
and dark energy is increasing?

and this dark energy increase is attributed to dead souls?

souls that were once alive-- were dark matter
and morphed into dark energy?

What scientific proof do we have that dark matter is decreasing ?

[1dave]

Jul 24, 2015 17:33:13 GMT -5 mohs said:

For being "hypothetical," they sure have a lot of data. We spirits seem to be multiplying - or evolving?

I find this interesting
do I read the theory right?

according to calculation
dark matter is decreasing
and dark energy is increasing?

and this dark energy increase is attributed to dead souls?

souls that were once alive-- were dark matter
and morphed into dark energy?

What scientific proof do we have that dark matter is decreasing ?

Hi Ed!
As far as I know, I'm the only one assigning dark matter to spirits.
"THEY" do come up with a lot of curious ideas.

So entropy is changing energy to matter, and dark matter to dark energy? Wow.

I agree with Mel Sabre52 that most "skypilots" are self appointed and have a hidden agenda.

Martin Luther didn't believe he had the authority to build a new church. That didn't stop his followers, or the rest of the Protestants from starting up their own versions.
Growing up in Texas, I went to lots of different churches with my friends.

I was amazed that each Baptist minister had his own unique list of what brought down fire and brimstone.

That did not dissuade me from believing in an afterlife, or intelligence in the universe.

Neither did the ancient Egyptians having their servants slaughtered to serve them in the hereafter.
That would prompt @shotgunner's civil disobedience from me!

EDIT: Perhaps that is what the survivors secretly wanted?

[1dave]

Why is this important?

Belief Systems, right or wrong, true or false, direct lives and societies.

A word about belief systems.
Our beliefs are constantly evolving. What worked for us as children at home doesn’t always work with neighbors or when we started school. Result = a new belief system. In time we give up the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus.
Problems at work and church modify our beliefs. Reality happens.
We have Free Agency to do anything we want.
We are not free of the consequences.
Gravity doesn’t care whether you have been good or bad.
When our present belief system fails in drastic situations we tend to fall back to a previous belief system.

The behavior of children who believe in “Santa” tends to change as Christmas draws near.

You better watch out
You better not cry
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
Santa Claus is coming to town

He's making a list
And checking it twice;
He's gonna find out
Who's naughty or nice
Santa Claus is coming to town

He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake!

The same holds true for those who believe there are eternal consequences for our actions.
They try to live their lives differently than those who do not.

Exhibit A: Those who believe that going to church will improve their business success.

Exhibit B: Those who believe God does not answer prayers, but the Devil does.

Exhibit C: Those who believe eating their enemies hearts will increase their power.

I think most RTH readers are well acquainted with the Christian and Jewish ideas about heaven and hell, but few have encountered the Muslim concepts.
Perhaps you have come across “The Miraculous Journey of Mahomet.”


Paradise

Women hanging by their tongues in Hellfire.

The Koran, or Qur’an if you prefer, has much to say on Jannah (paradise) and Hellfire; but on equal footing are the Hadiths, the collected sayings of Mohammad, and the scholars commentaries on them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

“Different branches of Islam refer to different collections of hadith, though the same incident may be found in hadith in different collections:

In the Sunni branch of Islam, the canonical hadith collections are the six books, of which Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim generally have the highest status. The other books of hadith are Sunan Abu Dawood, Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Al-Sunan al-Sughra and Sunan ibn Majah. However the Malikis, one of the five Sunni "schools of thought" (madhhabs), traditionally reject Sunan ibn Majah and assert the canonical status of Muwatta Imam Malik. The Fath al-Bari commentary on Sahih al-Bukhari and Al-Nawawi's commentary on Sahih Muslim are studied alongside the hadith, although they are sharh and not part of the hadith themselves.
In the Shi'a branch of Islam, the canonical hadith collections are the Four Books: Kitab al-Kafi, Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih, Tahdhib al-Ahkam, and Al-Istibsar.
In the Ibadi branch of Islam, the main canonical collection is the Tartib al-Musnad. This is an expansion of the earlier Jami Sahih collection, which retains canonical status in its own right.
The Ahmadiyya branch of Islam generally relies on Sunni hadith collections.

Some minor heterodox groups, collectively known as Quranists, reject the authority of the Hadith collections.”

I. From Al-Nawawi (1234-1277) Forty Hadiths and Commentary By Dr. Jamal Ahmed Badi
(Differs from the Original Text from the Arabic Virtual Translation Center):

Page 21 - Hadith 4
Abu 'Abd al-Rahman 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud, radiyallahu 'anhu, reported: The Messenger of Allah,
sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, the most truthful, the most trusted, told us:

"Verily the creation of any one of you takes place when he is assembled in
his mother's womb; for forty days he is as a drop of fluid, then it becomes
a clot for a similar period. Thereafter, it is a lump looking like it has been
chewed for a similar period. Then an angel is sent to him, who breathes
the ruh (spirit) into him. This Angel is commanded to write Four decrees:
that he writes down his provision (rizq), his life span, his deeds, and
whether he will be among the wretched or the blessed.
I swear by Allah - there is no God but He - one of you may perform the
deeds of the people of Paradise till there is naught but an arm's length
between him and it, when that which has been written will outstrip him so
that he performs the deeds of the people of the Hell Fire; one of you may
perform the deeds of the people of the Hell Fire, till there is naught but an
arm's length between him and it, when that which has been written will
overtake him so that he performs the deeds of the people of Paradise and
enters therein."
[Al-Bukhari & Muslim]

Background:This hadith was not only recorded by Al-Bukhari and Muslim but by other Scholars as well. Apart from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud, this hadith was also narrated by many other companions (Sahabahs).

P. 25 - “We are responsible for what we choose and for what we do. Referring to the last section of this hadith where a person's final destiny changes at the last minute and he ends up not as expected, there are examples in the Sirahs where some people embrace Islam in the last minute - e.g. they embrace Islam and go into battle and die, some of them not having done a single good deed.

There are also many examples today where non-practicing Muslims or those doing bad deeds, having reached the last stages of their lives (at the age of 50 or 60), will repent and turn into a good Muslim. The same applies for thousands of new converts every year. These people, according to the will of Allah, will be forgiven and enter Paradise.

For the other scenario where a person performs good deeds most of his/her life and at the end of his/her life perform bad deeds deserving to enter the Hellfire (as mentioned in the hadith), this situation affects only a limited number of people compared to the first one. And it is because of the person himself, such as in the case of hypocrites.”

P.28 - “It is narrated by the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, in one Hadith that Allah created a man on an island where he was the only person there. Allah gave the man rizq by providing fruits on which he survived. For 70 years the man lived and worshipped only Allah, as there were no challenges there. When the time came for the man to die, Allah commanded the angel to bring his soul to Him. Allah asked the man, "O My servant, to Paradise or to Hellfire?" The man replied, "O Allah, Almighty, to Paradise." Allah said, "O My servant, is it because of My Mercy or is it because of your amal (good deeds)?" The man replied, "O Allah, it is because of my amal. For 70 years I worshipped you. I have done nothing bad, only good deeds worshipping you."
Then Allah commanded his angel to take the bounty of sight and put it on one scale. He then commanded the angel to put the man's 70 years' worth of good deeds on the other scale. The bounty of sight weighed heavier than the deeds of 70 years.

In summary, if for 70 years we were to worship Allah and do good deeds and refrain from bad deeds, we will still not be able to repay Allah for one of His bounties. The Scholars say if you want to know Allah's bounty on you, close your eyes. If we close our eyes and imagine that we can no longer see and try to picture how our life would be, only then can we truly appreciate and value the mercy of Allah.

PP. 77-78 “The responsibility of the Muslim regarding what he says is mentioned in the Qur'an:
"Not a word does he utter but there is a watcher by him ready to record it"
[Surah Qaf (50): ayat 18].
- 78 -
There are also other hadiths which state that the Muslim should be careful about what he says. His words can either, if they are pleasing to Allah, raise him to a higher level; or if his words displease Allah, they may cause him to be thrown into the Hellfire - as stated in a hadith recorded by Imam al-Bukhari. This shows that what we say can have a direct effect on whether it will benefit us or not.
One hadith (which illustrates the example of a bad consequence resulting from what a person says) states that the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said that a pious man from Bani Israel use to see his fellow man always committing sins. On day the pious man swore to the sinner: "By Allah, He will never forgive you." Allah was displeased with what the pious man said because only Allah knows what is our destiny, whether someone will end up in Paradise or Hell. Because of this, when the two men died, the pious man was punished and put into Hell and the sinner was forgiven by Allah. [Sunan Abu Daud]

What we can learn here is that either we say something beneficial and good or else we should keep silent.

P. 88 “The hadith mentions one way of dealing nicely or being merciful with animals and that is in the case of slaughtering. In another hadith the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said: “Whoever shows mercy even when slaughtering a bird, Allah will have mercy on him on the Day of Judgement.” [Recorded by Al-Bukhari]

In another hadith, the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, related this story: “While a man was traveling, he felt very thirsty. He found a well and went down to have a drink. When he came out he found a thirsty dog. He said to himself, "This dog is as thirsty as I was." He then went back inside the well and used his shoe to bring out some water for the dog. Allah was pleased with him and forgave his sins because of he had done." [Recorded by Al-Bukhari]

In other hadiths the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, warns us not to frighten animals. While he was with his companions he found a bird making a greaving sound. The Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, immediately said: “Who has frightened this bird by taking its offspring?” Then he commanded: “Return back her offspring.”

In another hadith the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, warned Muslims not to harm animals. He said: “A lady was put into the hellfire because of a cat. She tied up the cat and did not give her anything to eat nor did she allow it to look for food.”

*********************

II. From “Forty Hadith - Qudsi”

It was related by al-Bukhari, Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah.
Hadith Qudsi 38:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:

When Allah created Paradise and Hell-fire, He sent Gabriel to Paradise, saying: Look at it and at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants. The Prophet (pbuh) said: So he came to it and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared therein for its inhabitants. The Prophet (pbuh) said: So he returned to Him and said: By your glory, no one hears of it without entering it. So He ordered that it be encompassed by forms of hardship, and He said: Return to it and look at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants. The Prophet (pbuh) said: So he returned to it and found that it was encompassed by forms of hardship (1). Then he returned to Him and said: By Your glory, I fear that no one will enter it. He said: Go to Hell-fire and look at it and what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants, and he fount that it was in layers, one above the other. Then he returned to Him and said: By Your glory, no one who hears of it will enter it. So He ordered that it be encompassed by lusts. Then He said: Return to it. And he returned to it and said: By Your glory, I am frightened that no one will escape from entering it.

(1) The Arabic word used here is "makarih", the literal meaning of which is "things that are disliked". In this context it refers to forms of religious discipline that man usually finds onerous.

It was related by Tirmidhi, who said that it was a good and sound Hadith (also by Abu Dawud and an-Nasa'i).


Hadith Qudsi 39:

On the authority of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:

Paradise and Hell-fire disputed together, and Hell-fire said: In me are the mighty and the haughty. Paradise said: In me are the weak and the poor. So Allah judged between them, [saying]: You are Paradise, My mercy; through you I show mercy to those I wish. And you are Hell-fire, My punishment; through you I punish those I wish, and it is incumbent upon Me that each of you shall have its fill.

[spiritstone]

I am undecided? I guess this makes me agnostic: a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic:

Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.
The problem I have is where and how did come into "existence" matter-anti matter or genesis. A helping hand? Can science prove it? The search is still ongoing "Cern"
Something from Nothing. How did Nothing become Something? 
Can spirituality and science exists together? Can you be both a believer and a non believer?
It all confuses me.... until then my search continues.

[1dave]

Jul 26, 2015 14:04:03 GMT -5 spiritstone said:

I am undecided? I guess this makes me agnostic: a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic:

Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.
The problem I have is where and how did come into "existence" matter-anti matter or genesis. A helping hand? Can science prove it? The search is still ongoing "Cern"
Something from Nothing. How did Nothing become Something? 
Can spirituality and science exists together? Can you be both a believer and a non believer?
It all confuses me.... until then my search continues.

Way back in ancient times when I was growing up, Science was settled. a consensus of 1,000% knew that matter could neither be created nor destroyed, although it could be transformed into energy and back after Einstein came on the scene.

Then they (Hoyt?) came up with the big bang. Everything came from nothing.
Well, a "singularity."

Back in the 80's I suggested on some science forums that black holes were singularities and we were probably in a black hole from a previous universe. Everything came from there, not from nothing.

Apparently that idea has now been accepted, but all it does is postpone the answer.
Where did the matter-antimatter come from?

Remember, Genesis was written some 5,000 years ago by Moses for a bunch of uneducated people who had been slaves making mud and straw bricks for 200 years. It had to be simple for them to understand.
I find it interesting that his order of creation agrees well with modern geology.

[rockpickerforever]

Jul 24, 2015 10:15:23 GMT -5 @wampidy said:

One of the big differences between a Christian and an atheist is that you do not have to capitalize atheist when writing about them. Okay, kidding aside the big difference is that a Christian will start preaching from a book to anyone that does not believe as they do.

Being a Christian, I take exception to that statement.  I have NEVER preached out of a book (or even just winging it) to anyone that does not believe how I do.  If Christianity were a race, I would consider that statement racist.  You are lumping all Christians into one basket, based on what a few of them do.  Kinda like saying that all gun owners (or Confederate flag flyers, take your pick) are psychotic mass murderers, based on the actions of one @hole.  Please try not to generalize that way.

Jul 24, 2015 10:15:23 GMT -5 @wampidy said:

Few atheists preach their beliefs unless Christianity is forced upon them or if Christians try to mix church and state which according to the writings in our soon to be useless constitution it is illegal.

America was founded as a Christian nation link.  It sucks that potus is trying to remove every remnant of religion (yes, Christian values) in our society.  I won't try to explain God, or why He let's bad things happen (because I don't know!), but I think young people need Him in their life as a moral compass.  They need something to believe in, a higher authority that will hold them accountable for their deeds.  Murder someone?  Rob a bank?  Jail is a joke, a resort, some down time before being turned loose so you can go out and commit those crimes over and over again.  They don't know (or care) the difference between right and wrong.  And just look at our leaders, what a great example they set - NOT!  Liars, cheaters, thieves.  A refresher course of the Ten Commandments should be mandatory for them.  No wonder we're circling the drain as a society... 

I'll not force my religious beliefs or principals on anyone.  I'll not tell you what to believe, y'all are adults.  You can make up your own minds.  I got no problem with other religions or non-religions, live and let live. 

In San Diego in 1913, a wooden "Christian cross" was erected on Mt Soledad (on city government property) as a veteran's memorial. Over the years, it has been stolen, replaced, burned down, replaced, blown over by winds, repaired. It has been the subject of many lawsuits, going back as long as I can remember. Well, twenty-five years they say. Countless sums of money have been paid to lawyers to file suit to have it taken down. Just four days ago, the battle is apparently over. (Thank God!).  The Mt. Soledad Memorial Association (which has long provided upkeep for the cross), paid $1.4 million for the half acre of land the memorial sits on. There will be no more lawsuits, the cross still stands. Hope the complainers are all happy now, lol. This speaks to what jakesrocks had mentioned about very vocal minorities, and how they impact everyone else's lives.

[jakesrocks]

If I only had one choice of religion to follow, it would be the Tibetan form of Buddhism. Why you may ask ?

1 -- I like the fact that they mourn a birth because of everything the newborn will suffer while alive.

2 -- They celebrate death because at last a person can be at peace. No more suffering.

[mohs]

ah the good oleshopenhaurion way of thinking
or the ancient Greeks

When the King captured Silenius
to get the ultimate question answered
the reply was:

“The best is not to be born
the second best is to die soon”

wonderful sense of humor these hard nose realists

mostly

[mohs]

Jul 26, 2015 14:04:03 GMT -5 spiritstone said:

I am undecided? I guess this makes me agnostic: a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic:

Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.
The problem I have is where and how did come into "existence" matter-anti matter or genesis. A helping hand? Can science prove it? The search is still ongoing "Cern"
Something from Nothing. How did Nothing become Something? 
Can spirituality and science exists together? Can you be both a believer and a non believer?
It all confuses me.... until then my search continues.

nah science will never be able to offer an explanation to the brilliant Leibnitzian question:
why is there something rather than nothing?
where does it all come from?

For me Leibnitz had to much optimism in sufficient reason for my tastes.
Although monads may be the answer

But back to why-- there is something instead of nothing.
Are we sure the question is being asked properly?
Is there really something? Or is this just a whole bunch of nothing?
much ado-- about that!

but I do take the question seriously
and for this rock bottom philosopher
I’ve devoted a bunch nothing time to the question.
Its actually a haunting question.


I will offer an excellent thesis on the subject;
Jim Holt wrote an existential detective story
that covers just about every issue the question entails

I offer the lecture
But be forewarned.
Although humorous it not very flattering.



mostly™

[spiritstone]

Jul 26, 2015 15:06:23 GMT -5 1dave said:

Jul 26, 2015 14:04:03 GMT -5 spiritstone said:

I am undecided? I guess this makes me agnostic: a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic:

Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.
The problem I have is where and how did come into "existence" matter-anti matter or genesis. A helping hand? Can science prove it? The search is still ongoing "Cern"
Something from Nothing. How did Nothing become Something? 
Can spirituality and science exists together? Can you be both a believer and a non believer?
It all confuses me.... until then my search continues.

Way back in ancient times when I was growing up, Science was settled. a consensus of 1,000% knew that matter could neither be created nor destroyed, although it could be transformed into energy and back after Einstein came on the scene.

Then they (Hoyt?) came up with the big bang. Everything came from nothing.
Well, a "singularity."

Back in the 80's I suggested on some science forums that black holes were singularities and we were probably in a black hole from a previous universe. Everything came from there, not from nothing.

Apparently that idea has now been accepted, but all it does is postpone the answer.
Where did the matter-antimatter come from?

Remember, Genesis was written some 5,000 years ago by Moses for a bunch of uneducated people who had been slaves making mud and straw bricks for 200 years. It had to be simple for them to understand.
I find it interesting that his order of creation agrees well with modern geology.

Right ...you grew up during the rise of alchemy. lol
A singularity: the defining point of infinite, pertaining to time and space. But who or what created this universe that had entered the black hole?
So if were in a ever expanding universe, we are now on the ejection side of the hole?
Does this makes any sense or truth before I continue? So many possibilities.

[jamesp]

The Bible fascinates me. Always has. No book like it. Answers all the questions my little mind could come up with.

[Deleted]

I have learned a lot over the last few days and I have not changed me, I have changed my title. James and Lee pointed out or reminded me of the atheists in history that were the worst of the worst so I definitely will no longer be alining myself with atheists.

rockpickerforever (jeeze I wish you would shorten that hahaha) The example you pointed out is one of the petty differences I have been bitching about. What in the hell difference does it make whether or not there is a cross on a hill? If you do not like to see it DON'T LOOK AT IT. There are a bazillion other hills to look at that do not have a cross on it. Those people were just being ass holes which can be found on both sides of the fence.

An example on the other side is why does there need to be prayer in the schools? Schools are a place of learning for all races and religions so prayer is an interruption in the learning process which is something else that is going to hell in this country and has been going to hell before the prayer thing even came up.

PARENTS either not being able to discipline for fear of some goody two shoes reporting them for child abuse or just not giving a damn how their children turn out is a problem. There are probably a million reasons for the way children are being brought up now days. Father working two jobs or both mother and father working and the children are left to their own vices. Parents that do not have a clue what it takes to raise a decent human being.

A wealthy child that is raised in a godless home but with parents that are loving, nurturing and spend the time teaching their kids right from wrong have just as much chance of being a good adult as a poor child in a good Christian home but the parents have no time or are too tired from working too many hours to spend any time with or teaching the child anything. This can be played out a million different ways so I am not singling out anyone.

A different example. I mentioned before a brother-in-law that is a fundamental Baptist preacher and believes that black people have no sole. He raised two daughters and when the first one got married she was clueless about life because her parents could not teach them about sex and the like. The girl was asking my wife all kinds of questions while in her wedding dress just before the wedding. WRONG. The second girl married a black man which got her cut off from her parents (which did not bother her) but her and her husband are doing extremely well in the music industry and have become quite wealthy I hear.

I do not have the answers but a little tolerance and less radical behavior would go a long way to solving a lot of our problems. Spending time with the children and teaching them right from wrong (like a few of the people on here are doing) could make the world a much better place.

But radicalism is going to continue and probably get much worse. I am still waiting for the preacher to set himself on fire. lol And I am happy that the gays are happy (do ya'll know that a lot of them believe in god and are good Christians?) Even though many Christians will not put the two in the same sentence. Tolerance really could make the world a better place but I have about given up hope. It is not possible for everyone to be 100 percent correct.

Now all I have to do is come up with the name for "non believer nice guy that is still learning even though he is as old as dirt and has not killed anyone but is a firm believer in gun ownership and tries to love everyone around him because I need it as much as they do. (put that in two or three words)
Jim

[mohs]

Jul 26, 2015 14:04:03 GMT -5 spiritstone said:

Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

That answer by Socrates as had major implications for the Western world beliefs.
Socrates or Jesus.
A major battle was waged on what was the best moral guide.
That history is not written. Or its written by the victors.

But there were many schools of Philosophical thought through out the Mediterranean area prior to the advent of Christianity. The Academy, Lyceum, Epicurean, Stoicisms ect…
Those schools taught all the moral lessons and more that a person would need to know to live the ‘good life’.
Unfortunately those schools collapsed. You had to be a thinking person to attend.
Instead we ended up with the dogma of the church.

And I think the major reason why was because of Socrates agnosticism about what happens after death.
Its much more comforting to know everything works out well in the end.

mostly™

[Pat]

@wampidy said "Now all I have to do is come up with the name for "non believer nice guy that is still learning even though he is as old as dirt and has not killed anyone but is a firm believer in gun ownership and tries to love everyone around him because I need it as much as they do. (put that in two or three words)"
Jim

Jim, I think the term you are looking for is "decent human being".

[jamesp]

I agree, Pat.