Wood that still burns above the tree line

[bcrockhound]

Hey all, my girlfriend's dad up in Sachs Harbour, Northwest Territories, Canada has told me about a lot of petrified wood up there, and also a lot of wood that isn't petrified. Apparently it has kept pretty well in the permafrost. He says it burns like coal. Any idea what kind of trees this wood is from? Sachs Harbour is on Banks Island in the Western Arctic, way farther north than trees currently. Any idea how long ago these trees would have been up there?

Thanks for any info!

[MsAli]

Mar 1, 2019 10:54:26 GMT -5 bcrockhound said:

Hey all, my girlfriend's dad up in Sachs Harbour, Northwest Territories, Canada has told me about a lot of petrified wood up there, and also a lot of wood that isn't petrified. Apparently it has kept pretty well in the permafrost. He says it burns like coal. Any idea what kind of trees this wood is from? Sachs Harbour is on Banks Island in the Western Arctic, way farther north than trees currently. Any idea how long ago these trees would have been up there?

Thanks for any info!

Found this for you 

publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2016/rncan-nrcan/M78-1-1-2014-eng.pdf

[Kai]

My guess would be something coniferous, maybe spruce or pine.

[greig]

I suspect you are looking at evidence of plate tectonics, whereby 240M-200M years ago there was a supercontinent called Pangaea. After breaking up, the continents we see today drifted slowly to their current locations. Once upon a time, what is now arctic was much closer to the equator.

[lookatthat]

Very interesting!
Can he collect a sample for carbon 14 dating?
I suspect these trees dated to one of the interglacial periods -- warmer periods during or between ice ages, and are probably several thousand to 30 thousand years old. Just a guess, I haven't got my books.
I agree with Kai, they look like conifers or some sort -- something with a lot of resin. Cedar, spruce, pine.

[bcrockhound]

Mar 4, 2019 16:28:22 GMT -5 lookatthat said:

Very interesting!
Can he collect a sample for carbon 14 dating?
I suspect these trees dated to one of the interglacial periods -- warmer periods during or between ice ages, and are probably several thousand to 30 thousand years old. Just a guess, I haven't got my books.
I agree with Kai, they look like conifers or some sort -- something with a lot of resin. Cedar, spruce, pine.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I am hoping to spend some time camping on the land with his family this summer, and I will definitely be asking to take me to the petrified (or not) wood. 

He's also under the impression he's found a sabretooth tooth and a dinosaur toe. Couple pics of the toe below.

[lookatthat]

Looks like a kind of plant fossil... giant fern or horsetail maybe?

[lookatthat]

Maybe walrus tusk?

[lookatthat]

The warmest of the recent interglacial periods, or "climatic optimum" occurred about 125,000 years ago. This one was called the Eemian. The oceans were several degrees warmer than present and trees grew well above the arctic circle (evidence found up to 71 degrees north) and on southern Baffin island.

Other times included parts of the period from 3-9 thousand years ago, though I don't think they were as warm as the Eemian.

[lookatthat]

I also see that there was supposed to be a study of this wood and the fossils in that area but the project was cancelled in 2008.
I wonder why it was cancelled?
Funding dried up due to recession? Major project leader died and nobody else cared?

Or did somebody not want word to get out that the climate fluctuates constantly, has so forever, and in fact there were warmer periods in the not-so-distant past that had nothing to do with human activities?

[MsAli]

Mar 5, 2019 13:47:21 GMT -5 lookatthat said:

I also see that there was supposed to be a study of this wood and the fossils in that area but the project was cancelled in 2008.
I wonder why it was cancelled?
Funding dried up due to recession? Major project leader died and nobody else cared?

Or did somebody not want word to get out that the climate fluctuates constantly, has so forever, and in fact there were warmer periods in the not-so-distant past that had nothing to do with human activities?

I found a really good paper on the relationship or lack of relationship between researchers and the Inuits and how it hindered research in the area

Ill have to see if I can find it again

[bcrockhound]

Mar 5, 2019 17:19:36 GMT -5 MsAli said:

Mar 5, 2019 13:47:21 GMT -5 lookatthat said:

I also see that there was supposed to be a study of this wood and the fossils in that area but the project was cancelled in 2008.
I wonder why it was cancelled?
Funding dried up due to recession? Major project leader died and nobody else cared?

Or did somebody not want word to get out that the climate fluctuates constantly, has so forever, and in fact there were warmer periods in the not-so-distant past that had nothing to do with human activities?

I found a really good paper on the relationship or lack of relationship between researchers and the Inuits and how it hindered research in the area

Ill have to see if I can find it again

Most people, especially the older ones, still remember and bring up the anti-sealing campaigns that devastated the seal market for Inuit. However, the relationship with environmental organizations has improved in recent years. Greenpeace and the like have found smarter ways to latch their causes onto Inuit ones, such as anti-seismic testing near Clyde River in Nunavut and the fight over caribou calving grounds in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge with the Gwich'in. They, Tides, etc all fund a ton of youth opportunities up here too, so they get a lot of positive press. There are some subjects that still present a split, which the environmental orgs kind of gloss over, such as Inuit generally believing polar bear populations are very healthy if not increasing.

Other ways of the media can bother me. For example, in the last few years, beluga whales have come back to Sachs Harbour. This is a huge boon for the community, as whale meat is the ultimate treat in the North and one whale can essentially feed the whole town. But there is very little media about that compared to the doom and gloom one could expect if whales left Sachs Harbour in recent years.

Some communities are more receptive to the parachuting researchers than others. Nunavut in my experience is not as open. The Western Arctic is very welcoming and westernized. I suspect Alaska is similar.

Though some Inuit elders mention climate change to me, they almost always follow it up with noting that the Inuit adapt. They've been adapting to environmental changes for their whole existence, following the food and managing the conditions. Something that always bugs me about reporting on climate change affecting Inuit settlements is that, at least in Nunavut and the NWT, these settlements were essentially imposed by the government of Canada, and the Inuit were nomadic or semi-nomadic people before that. The relocating of Inuit was especially egregious in places like Grise Fiord. You get these stories about shoreline erosion affecting Inuit homes, and it's like well, the only reason they're in permanent homes is because the government came in and pushed everyone into permanent communities in the first place. 

Not that I am making any statement about the veracity of climate change etc. It is interesting to see it from a northern perspective. Also interesting to see immigration and multiculturalism from a northern perspective. 

Edit: I forgot to add, on the subject of climate/oil/environment, that the wealth of Western Arctic Inuit (Inuvialuit) was built primarily on the oil and gas industry up here. Many if not most of the older people up here worked for oil and gas growing up. The region was made rich because of it, and the Inuvialuit, to their credit, jumped on the opportunity and negotiated a fantastic land claim deal with the government of Canada. The people of this area were very vocally upset when Canada and the USA in 2015 announced a moratorium on new licenses for offshore exploration in the Arctic. For them, it was another case of the government running roughshod on Inuit with no consultation. That is just to say, oil and gas is seen pretty positively up here and most people wish the industry would return.

[lookatthat]

Very interesting, bcrockhound! Thanks for the insight.

[NRG]

Mar 6, 2019 8:00:12 GMT -5 bcrockhound said:

Mar 5, 2019 17:19:36 GMT -5 MsAli said:

I found a really good paper on the relationship or lack of relationship between researchers and the Inuits and how it hindered research in the area

Ill have to see if I can find it again

Most people, especially the older ones, still remember and bring up the anti-sealing campaigns that devastated the seal market for Inuit. However, the relationship with environmental organizations has improved in recent years. Greenpeace and the like have found smarter ways to latch their causes onto Inuit ones, such as anti-seismic testing near Clyde River in Nunavut and the fight over caribou calving grounds in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge with the Gwich'in. They, Tides, etc all fund a ton of youth opportunities up here too, so they get a lot of positive press. There are some subjects that still present a split, which the environmental orgs kind of gloss over, such as Inuit generally believing polar bear populations are very healthy if not increasing.

Other ways of the media can bother me. For example, in the last few years, beluga whales have come back to Sachs Harbour. This is a huge boon for the community, as whale meat is the ultimate treat in the North and one whale can essentially feed the whole town. But there is very little media about that compared to the doom and gloom one could expect if whales left Sachs Harbour in recent years.

Some communities are more receptive to the parachuting researchers than others. Nunavut in my experience is not as open. The Western Arctic is very welcoming and westernized. I suspect Alaska is similar.

Though some Inuit elders mention climate change to me, they almost always follow it up with noting that the Inuit adapt. They've been adapting to environmental changes for their whole existence, following the food and managing the conditions. Something that always bugs me about reporting on climate change affecting Inuit settlements is that, at least in Nunavut and the NWT, these settlements were essentially imposed by the government of Canada, and the Inuit were nomadic or semi-nomadic people before that. The relocating of Inuit was especially egregious in places like Grise Fiord. You get these stories about shoreline erosion affecting Inuit homes, and it's like well, the only reason they're in permanent homes is because the government came in and pushed everyone into permanent communities in the first place. 

Not that I am making any statement about the veracity of climate change etc. It is interesting to see it from a northern perspective. Also interesting to see immigration and multiculturalism from a northern perspective. 

Edit: I forgot to add, on the subject of climate/oil/environment, that the wealth of Western Arctic Inuit (Inuvialuit) was built primarily on the oil and gas industry up here. Many if not most of the older people up here worked for oil and gas growing up. The region was made rich because of it, and the Inuvialuit, to their credit, jumped on the opportunity and negotiated a fantastic land claim deal with the government of Canada. The people of this area were very vocally upset when Canada and the USA in 2015 announced a moratorium on new licenses for offshore exploration in the Arctic. For them, it was another case of the government running roughshod on Inuit with no consultation. That is just to say, oil and gas is seen pretty positively up here and most people wish the industry would return.

Refreshing to read these positive things from you. Even the criticism of "the media". And you are a part of that media, calling for change! Love that!

[bcrockhound]

Mar 7, 2019 17:05:56 GMT -5 NRG said:

Refreshing to read these positive things from you. Even the criticism of "the media". And you are a part of that media, calling for change! Love that!

Oh I am pretty critical of the media, especially in Canada. It's so nice to drive to the States and flip through the radio and hear different and strong opinions. Moving to the North has been enlightening in light of national and southern coverage of Arctic issues. 

The offshore exploration moratorium is a great example. I have big-city friends down south who think a move like that is a huge win for Arctic Indigenous people, stopping companies coming in and looking for oil in this pristine land and whatnot. They don't realize that oil and gas is what built the wealth of these people and without it, they have a mostly government economy with high poverty rates and little hope. They also seem to ignore that most of these Indigenous groups have robust land claim deals that allow them to dictate the details of any development and reap much of the rewards. What's actually happening is the government of Canada trampling over Indigenous self-determination, but my southern city friends don't always see that. And of course, the Canadian government trampling over the Indigenous is nothing new.

My big-city friends also tend to have very stereotypical ideas of the culture in the North. There is a lot of beautiful traditional stuff like drum dancing, the languages, hunting, spending the majority of the year on the land and camping. But they also love to party, shoot guns, drive big trucks and have fun. 

When I was working in the media (I still do but now for a special-interest magazine so I don't really write news anymore), the only people who censored me were white people originally from the south. I was even told I couldn't write about cultural appropriation because I was white. But take my girlfriend, as Inuit as they come. She doesn't see colour, and if anything, she idolizes Japanese culture because of her love for anime and manga. There's this tip-toeing the Canadian media does with Indigenous that might come from a sensitive place but mostly serves to disenfranchise and infantilize the people they're trying to respect. The Northern Indigenous people are very humorous. They are constantly dishing out jokes, often very dryly, and they can surely take real discussions. In an attempt to "respect" them, the Canadian media more so subjugates them to their own ideals and stereotypes, as Canada has always been doing, just from a different angle now.

I have no dog in any of these fights. I just want to make money, enjoy rocks and hockey, have a good life. But I like rambling about it, and I am glad to be out of the news media and free to write letters to the editor these days.  

[NRG]

Mar 9, 2019 15:16:51 GMT -5 bcrockhound said:

Mar 7, 2019 17:05:56 GMT -5 NRG said:

Refreshing to read these positive things from you. Even the criticism of "the media". And you are a part of that media, calling for change! Love that!

Oh I am pretty critical of the media, especially in Canada. It's so nice to drive to the States and flip through the radio and hear different and strong opinions. Moving to the North has been enlightening in light of national and southern coverage of Arctic issues. 

The offshore exploration moratorium is a great example. I have big-city friends down south who think a move like that is a huge win for Arctic Indigenous people, stopping companies coming in and looking for oil in this pristine land and whatnot. They don't realize that oil and gas is what built the wealth of these people and without it, they have a mostly government economy with high poverty rates and little hope. They also seem to ignore that most of these Indigenous groups have robust land claim deals that allow them to dictate the details of any development and reap much of the rewards. What's actually happening is the government of Canada trampling over Indigenous self-determination, but my southern city friends don't always see that. And of course, the Canadian government trampling over the Indigenous is nothing new.

My big-city friends also tend to have very stereotypical ideas of the culture in the North. There is a lot of beautiful traditional stuff like drum dancing, the languages, hunting, spending the majority of the year on the land and camping. But they also love to party, shoot guns, drive big trucks and have fun. 

When I was working in the media (I still do but now for a special-interest magazine so I don't really write news anymore), the only people who censored me were white people originally from the south. I was even told I couldn't write about cultural appropriation because I was white. But take my girlfriend, as Inuit as they come. She doesn't see colour, and if anything, she idolizes Japanese culture because of her love for anime and manga. There's this tip-toeing the Canadian media does with Indigenous that might come from a sensitive place but mostly serves to disenfranchise and infantilize the people they're trying to respect. The Northern Indigenous people are very humorous. They are constantly dishing out jokes, often very dryly, and they can surely take real discussions. In an attempt to "respect" them, the Canadian media more so subjugates them to their own ideals and stereotypes, as Canada has always been doing, just from a different angle now.

I have no dog in any of these fights. I just want to make money, enjoy rocks and hockey, have a good life. But I like rambling about it, and I am glad to be out of the news media and free to write letters to the editor these days.  

Respect

i assure the powers that be understand the backwards nature of their PC leadership.

[jamesp]

This is old wood bc. When the Corp of Engineer's dammed the Oklawaha River water backed up over large peat flood plains. An unexpected calamity, the 50 foot deep peat bogs were covered with lake water and started to float the many layers of ancient forests up due to inundation. The highly acidic peat at ph 4 had preserved ancient forests of pine, cypress, gums, etc. These ancient forests began to float on top of the lake causing boating collisions. Old hollow cypress stumps were exposed onwards of 25 feet in diameter visible on the bottom of the clear water lake. As the large logs floated up, a group of entrepreneurs started pulling the logs to their lakefront property with air boats and sawing table slabs 4 to 8 feet wide with large capacity band saw mills.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_Florida_Barge_Canal was a great disaster of a project terminated for potential environmental disaster.

What is so amazing was that these 6 to 8 foot diameter logs had tight growth rings averaging 60 years per inch, many at 80 rings per inch, so slow growing but old large trees ~3000 years old.
Adding to the age of this wood is that many of these trees were several ancient forests deep in the peat and well preserved by the bacteria killing acid.
Hard to say how long they had been preserved after they died but certainly a long time.

Add many small pieces of wood that would also blow up against the south shore by prevailing winds.

These are some of the small pieces rising out of the peat. They sold as interior decorations like hotcakes up here in the big city of Atlanta.
The locals living on the lake would burn them in large bonfires as this 'debris, washed up on their water front.



This would be cypress riddled with the 'pecky fungus'. This fungus attacks present day live cypress as it did the ancient cypress. It does it's damage while the tree is live.



The logs and associated debris would float up against the shores creating large fields on the lake surface.
We used to snorkel under the floating debris and pick the finest specimens and swim them back to the boat.
The water was so crystal clear at high sun so you could see hundreds of feet underwater, perfect visibility.
Me and a buddy terminated this practice when we noticed about a 10 foot gator laying on the bottom about 8 feet below us. Let's just say we lost our tans momentarily.

When fishing or camping close to the log floats alligators would lay in wait from down under and ambush birds feeding around and on the log floats at the rate of about one bird per hour.
Horrible screeching sounds as the poor birds would get crushed by the attacks. The lake was a massive aviary and aquatic birds were everywhere.

This is Lake Rodman drawn down about 12 feet temporarily to kill off aquatic vegetation.
A present day flooded dead forest at a shallow bar. The full pool level is evident by the rotted tree line where oxygen rotted the trunks.
The few tall trees would be pine preserved by their high resin center wood.

[fernwood]

jamesp Beautiful pieces. I cannot imagine burning something like this, but I suppose it had to be done to keep the river banks clear.

[jamesp]

Mar 13, 2019 6:13:05 GMT -5 fernwood said:

jamesp Beautiful pieces. I cannot imagine burning something like this, but I suppose it had to be done to keep the river banks clear.

I had purchased 30 acres with 1200 feet of south shore frontage and subdivide/sold it all over a 7 year period. The shore stayed covered with these floaters.
I would drag my 16 foot trailer 400 miles from home in Atlanta and load it the last days of my stay at Lake George camp not 25 miles away.
After returning home I would drag the trailer thru the city to landscape companies and they would pick thru the pile easily financing my trip.

The wood also financed a specialized boat that assisted collecting without having to swim with the dang gators.
Boat also used for plant and petrified coral collecting safari's deep into the bayous.
It had a thick hull so it would not get punctured when sliding over sharp tree tips at the lake surface.
Fiberglass boats were constantly being punctured and rendered paralyzed when idling over the sharp tree tips on this lake.(heavy boat, sharp point load on hull, tip punctures hull and boat stuck).



Being federal land the harvest of the floating logs in open waters for resale became outlawed. Except for those that collected from their own shore.

This was a typical sawn log. A single board of pecky cypress.

[Kai]

Wow, they're fascinating! Both from biological as well as from aesthetic POW.