julieooly
Cave Dweller 
Member since October 2018
Posts: 721 
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Post by julieooly on Apr 19, 2019 5:14:30 GMT -5
I think some sets of good cad drawings which include measurements would be helpful. Include a set of “rights” and “wrongs” also guidelines including measurements or percentages on how tall the girdle (or overall height of the cab) should be compared to the overall height of the dome and overall size of the cab itself. I know I’m still making tons of mistakes but continue to get varied advice from lots of people.
I’ve spent a lot of time looking at other cab shops on Etsy (those that have great sales) and see all kinds of differences in cabbing styles. I’ve even bought cabs from sellers only to be completely surprised at what the cab actually looks like vs the pictures! That’s why I think drawings are needed.
Also I had lots of questions about girdle angle which turns out to be 12.5 degrees but then many successful cab say they don’t girdle their stones! Also once you figure out the correct height of girdle relative to the correct overall height of the stone you can still make the dome in different ways (quick rise or slow rise) make sense?
I’ve made a ton of cabs using guidelines from a person who loves her cabs thin with a very small girdle and a low rising dome but then been told by other banners that this is the wrong way to do it.
There seems to be a different need for wire wrapping and bezel setting too. It’s all very confusing. Then you add in that some people simply collect cabs for fun so those people don’t have technical requirements at all!
I can’t wait to see how the drawings turn out. HELP!
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Post by fernwood on Apr 19, 2019 7:25:35 GMT -5
Great thread.
I am wondering if there is a specific, standard name for cab sized slabettes that have been shaped, formed for some girdle and slightly domed, then run through the tumbler. I have seen some call them poor mans cabs here.
Agree on the differences in appropriate cabs for wire wraps and bezel sets. A lot depends on the bezel and what the product is. Also the audience your are marketing to. The hardness of the cab comes into play, too. I would never try to make a high domed cab for a ring from a soft stone. It could quickly wear down and lose the polish.
In the 1980's when working with Kingman and Sleeping Beauty Turquoise, I was taught how to make fairly thin cabs with some domes. Then make a casting to put the cab into. Then apply some standard filler into the cast. The filler allowed the cab to set up higher in the setting. It was the standard way most Navajo craftsman did it at the time. Most of the bezels available then were about 1/8" to 3/8" in height.
Appreciate the knowledge of others here. Do not want to misrepresent what I have, so have been taking photos showing the dome height, or lack of a dome. Have also used calipers top measure the "cab" in various spots.
Thanks.
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 19, 2019 7:29:55 GMT -5
I think some sets of good cad drawings which include measurements would be helpful. Include a set of “rights” and “wrongs” also guidelines including measurements or percentages on how tall the girdle (or overall height of the cab) should be compared to the overall height of the dome and overall size of the cab itself. I know I’m still making tons of mistakes but continue to get varied advice from lots of people. I’ve spent a lot of time looking at other cab shops on Etsy (those that have great sales) and see all kinds of differences in cabbing styles. I’ve even bought cabs from sellers only to be completely surprised at what the cab actually looks like vs the pictures! That’s why I think drawings are needed. Also I had lots of questions about girdle angle which turns out to be 12.5 degrees but then many successful cab say they don’t girdle their stones! Also once you figure out the correct height of girdle relative to the correct overall height of the stone you can still make the dome in different ways (quick rise or slow rise) make sense? I’ve made a ton of cabs using guidelines from a person who loves her cabs thin with a very small girdle and a low rising dome but then been told by other banners that this is the wrong way to do it. There seems to be a different need for wire wrapping and bezel setting too. It’s all very confusing. Then you add in that some people simply collect cabs for fun so those people don’t have technical requirements at all! I can’t wait to see how the drawings turn out. HELP! Like I said in the beginning- There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think everyone needs to find their own sweetspot- what works for them. It depends on your market, too. I used to make cabs for wire wrappers- thin, straight girdles, but I have found that a good wrapper doesn't need that, so I cab with a slanted, wider girdle now. There are a few basic rules- like the back has to be flat, but there is a lot of variability, too. |
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julieooly
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2018
Posts: 721
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Post by julieooly on Apr 19, 2019 7:52:45 GMT -5
I'll post some sketches when I can but it may be a while. The biggest thing I keep hearing is that everybody does it different!
Oh and I have a set of full faced flat laps (hard diamond) that I "thought" would make polishing the backs a breeze but they just don't. I have them in 180, 260, 360, 600 and 1,200 and I thought a quick run through the grits would yield the perfect polish, NOT.
I've heard many polish backs on their wheels, but they mostly tend to say they have 8", but some say they do the backs just fine on their 6".
Maybe I need some flats that are softer? I sure do have a lot of equipment-stuff now.
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Post by lpl on Apr 19, 2019 9:22:59 GMT -5
Great thread here Tela! I guess I don't have a lot of hard and fast rules that I follow. I have never taken a class but have watched a number of videos and poured through a lot of books and on-line resources about cabbing. I just do what looks good to me. I don't try to sell my cabs, then I suppose I'd have to change a lot of things. I don't polish many backs, but when I do I use "Pre-Polish Crystalpad™ brand pads" on my old CabMate that I kept even though I got a CabKing to do most of my shaping with. It's pretty simple with that machine. I'm lucky, I guess, in that I do my own smithing and can work around many of the flaws that I might have in my cabs, or I can touch them up as I go. That being said, I think that every cab I make gets a little 'better' and I constantly strive for 'perfection', whatever in the world that means!
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Apr 19, 2019 11:57:22 GMT -5
How serendipitous- I just got a message from a client who said she wished the back of the stone was polished. I don't polish the backs- obviously. I'd like to start, but I don't want to have to use another machine to do it. I am strapped for room as it is. For you guys who polish your backs- how do you do it and with what? Okay, here is a question I have wondered about. Please no one take offense by how this is worded. Are there any "real" cab makers (as in actually using a cabbing machine) who finish their cabs in a vibratory tumbler to have polished backs? Yes I am aware that some people shape the stones via other methods and use a vibe to finish, so just responses to the above please. Thanks, Al This is not the first time I have heard that a vibratory tumbler could be used to polish the backs, Al. I think it sounds pretty obvious actually. Spend 5-10 minutes using any one of the aforementioned techniques above to get the back to around 500 Then toss it in the Vibe with a ton (50%-70%) of your favorite ceramic media to Polish. It could work. |
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 19, 2019 12:35:15 GMT -5
Okay, here is a question I have wondered about. Please no one take offense by how this is worded. Are there any "real" cab makers (as in actually using a cabbing machine) who finish their cabs in a vibratory tumbler to have polished backs? Yes I am aware that some people shape the stones via other methods and use a vibe to finish, so just responses to the above please. Thanks, Al This is not the first time I have heard that a vibratory tumbler could be used to polish the backs, Al. I think it sounds pretty obvious actually. Spend 5-10 minutes using any one of the aforementioned techniques above to get the back to around 500 Then toss it in the Vibe with a ton (50%-70%) of your favorite ceramic media to Polish. It could work. I know of at least one guy who I bet does it. He isn't a member here, but his production numbers are just so insane that I think he's using a tumbler for the backs. |
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 19, 2019 12:39:55 GMT -5
I generally do fairly low domes. I, mysef, prefer then that way, but also- I buy slabs and most slabs are about 6mm. So, I can only go but so high domed. I just got a message from someone requesting one in the 8mm range. Don't think I have any thick material that she wants.
So, the moral of the story is... sometimes the dome (and girdle) height are dictated by the slab alone. I am comfortable with thin hard stones, but for softer stones, I like them a bit thicker. Luckily, a lot of people who sell slabs will sell a thicker soft slab - not always, though.
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Post by parfive on Apr 19, 2019 13:38:18 GMT -5
I know of at least one guy who I bet does it. He isn't a member here, but his production numbers are just so insane that I think he's using a tumbler for the backs. Why? The amount of time it takes to polish the back of a cab is miniscule compared to cutting out the preform or doming the cab. |
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 19, 2019 13:45:40 GMT -5
I know of at least one guy who I bet does it. He isn't a member here, but his production numbers are just so insane that I think he's using a tumbler for the backs. Why? The amount of time it takes to polish the back of a cab is miniscule compared to cutting out the preform or doming the cab. I fail to see your reasoning. You can throw a day or a week's worth in the tumbler at a time. You don't think that would save time? BTW- I'm getting ready to do a test now with wet/dry papers. I don't have tumbling grits. I have a lot of paper form doing metal work. |
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Post by MsAli on Apr 19, 2019 13:51:34 GMT -5
Has anyone ever had a cab returned because whoever bought it couldn't wrap or set it because of the bezel?
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Post by parfive on Apr 19, 2019 14:05:29 GMT -5
Then why limit your suspicion to him just polishing the backs in a tumbler? If he’s gonna do that, he might as well finish the whole damn cab in there.
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 19, 2019 14:09:54 GMT -5
Then why limit your suspicion to him just polishing the backs in a tumbler? If he’s gonna do that, he might as well finish the whole damn cab in there. Maybe he does.  |
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Post by miket on Apr 19, 2019 14:34:53 GMT -5
I know everyone who cabs is way ahead of me but I did have a question. How do you know when to give up on a stone? I've been working on this one for a couple of hours and I really like it. It looks way better in person but there's soft spots, pits and cracks. How do you know if it's worth going deeper or do you just take your chances? Plus, throw in the fact that I have probably 100's of other stones I could work on with just as much or more potential. Anyway, here's what it looks like right now. Thanks.  |
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gemfeller
Cave Dweller
Member since June 2011
Posts: 4,059 
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Post by gemfeller on Apr 19, 2019 14:37:23 GMT -5
Money quote: [quote author=" rockjunquie" So, the moral of the story is... sometimes the dome (and girdle) height are dictated by the slab alone. [/quote] |
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Post by parfive on Apr 19, 2019 14:51:54 GMT -5
BTW- I'm getting ready to do a test now with wet/dry papers. I don't have tumbling grits. I have a lot of paper form doing metal work. Just to be clear, a perfectly flat back and a back smooth enough for a good polish are two different things. I lap the back of a cab because I want it “perfectly” flat like most polished specimens – slabs, agate halves, whatever. It just so happens that that makes polishing the back very easy. |
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Post by MsAli on Apr 19, 2019 15:11:20 GMT -5
I know everyone who cabs is way ahead of me but I did have a question. How do you know when to give up on a stone? I've been working on this one for a couple of hours and I really like it. It looks way better in person but there's soft spots, pits and cracks. How do you know if it's worth going deeper or do you just take your chances? Plus, throw in the fact that I have probably 100's of other stones I could work on with just as much or more potential. Anyway, here's what it looks like right now. Thanks. Ive tried doing a cab with a dremel and while it was not a bad effort that same stone I took to a cab machine and the difference was night and day. I am done with a stone when I get frustrated with it. Then it is set aside until I am ready to try again. I have not had one yet that has been a total loss but then I dont do the volume others do and I think material plays a big role in that. |
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Post by miket on Apr 19, 2019 16:06:25 GMT -5
I know everyone who cabs is way ahead of me but I did have a question. How do you know when to give up on a stone? I've been working on this one for a couple of hours and I really like it. It looks way better in person but there's soft spots, pits and cracks. How do you know if it's worth going deeper or do you just take your chances? Plus, throw in the fact that I have probably 100's of other stones I could work on with just as much or more potential. Anyway, here's what it looks like right now. Thanks. Ive tried doing a cab with a dremel and while it was not a bad effort that same stone I took to a cab machine and the difference was night and day. I am done with a stone when I get frustrated with it. Then it is set aside until I am ready to try again. I have not had one yet that has been a total loss but then I dont do the volume others do and I think material plays a big role in that. I don't mind using a dremel. Yes it takes a while and I'm sure once I have a cabber I'll never go back but it gives me some time alone while I'm doing it and I don't have to think about anything but the stone in my hand. So I consider it time well spent. It's not frustration that I'm talking about- it's knowing when to quit. I've only had a couple fracture enough that I had to throw them away, some I just begin reshaping and of course they're smaller. The funniest part is when I'm doing it I hold the dremel in one hand and the stone in the other so when the stone slips out of my hand and goes flying towards the concrete floor in the garage I kick my foot out to try and save it. I'm sure it's quite a sight if someone saw me doing that! If you look carefully at the picture there's a thin coating of quartz in the right top quarter that's hard to grind off. I think once I get below that I'll find out if this is worth continuing. We'll see. I've never been described as someone who's smart enough to just give up. |
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Post by rmf on Apr 19, 2019 16:07:01 GMT -5
OK I'll chime in. I have cut literally thousands of cabs and my first one was good enough to sell (I regret selling it to this day). Mind you it was not a good cab by my standards now but it had a decent polish. That said, most of the time the rough dictates the thickness and shape. However, I am of the opinion a cab that is about 5mm thick is ideal. Yet if I have thin tough material Thinner is possible. I have cut Brazilian agate to 2.5mm thick because the material was nice. I have been cutting since 1972 and see no reason to polish the back on most stones unless there is a need. I consider it a waste of my time for something that will never be seen (of course with wire wrap that is different now). For stones like Rutilated Quartz you need to somewhat polish the back to let the light do its best with the Rutile. I polish the backs of all Opals, Tourmaline and anything that is transparent. For material that is thicker and has a great pattern I cut double cabs. Domed on both the front and back and come to a sharp edge at the girdle. What I call a buff top cab has a low dome and angled sides. I have never measured the angle. For many years I did not angle the bottom because the mounts I was cutting for did not require it. Now all stones get either a chamfer (more or less 45 deg) or round with a 325grit diamond wheel. This reduces the stress on the cab while it is being set (reducing chipping). For buff top cabs I also round or chamfer the sharp edge where the dome transitions to the girdle. This keeps the top from chipping. As for flat spots MsAli we all get them and for me it is due to being too impatient. I also found a cab I "finished" I have to redop to take out some lines I did not notice while it was wet. When I started cutting there were only domed cabs none of this straight sides or angled girdle and low dome tops. This technique came about because of diamond wheels which allow a cutter to cut low angles and get good doming all the way across the stone. Not that these buff tops were not done with SiC wheels but they were much harder to do. Also a dome from with a nice curve from back to the top of the stone removes more material than the low dome buff top cabs so diamond has allowed cutters to speed up cutting and be more creative. For the last 40+ years I have cut mostly replacement stones for local jewelers (unfortunately most is Black Onyx). |
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 19, 2019 16:11:35 GMT -5
BTW- I'm getting ready to do a test now with wet/dry papers. I don't have tumbling grits. I have a lot of paper form doing metal work. Just to be clear, a perfectly flat back and a back smooth enough for a good polish are two different things. I lap the back of a cab because I want it “perfectly” flat like most polished specimens – slabs, agate halves, whatever. It just so happens that that makes polishing the back very easy. I am only referring to having a polished back- one that started out saw smooth. Say 600 and up. I tried the wet paper and, indeed it went pretty quick. I can't see doing it for every cab, though. Maybe just the clear and more valuable ones or upon request. |
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