oldschoolrocker
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,540
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Post by oldschoolrocker on Aug 22, 2019 9:17:04 GMT -5
I came across this by accident... I always seemed to over-water by spraying when I first started due to slowing of action. I would unplug, drain with hand over opening, put back in frame, and action would return. Now I turn the barrel. When action slows down, try turning the barrel 90 degrees...without losing contact with the frame. I pick up and pull forward while staying in contact with the front of frame and twist about 90 degrees. I will bet you see better action without adding water. Hope this helps. Jeff A Edit, this is for the Lot-O tumbler... So I have had the issue of movement really slowing down after 24 hours or so In each stage and no matter how much water I add it never gets it going as well as before. But this time after 24 hours or so in 500 stage I unplugged machine, turned barrel 90 degrees and started it back up. To my surprise the action/movement started rolling just like it should without adding a drop of water more. Not sure if it has to do with the direction of the barrel, or if barrel overtime is lowering into the frame more and causing the action to slow. But either way, it appears to have solved my problem so I'm a happy camper! Thanks for the tip!!
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Post by aDave on Aug 25, 2019 17:03:21 GMT -5
I came across this by accident... I always seemed to over-water by spraying when I first started due to slowing of action. I would unplug, drain with hand over opening, put back in frame, and action would return. Now I turn the barrel. When action slows down, try turning the barrel 90 degrees...without losing contact with the frame. I pick up and pull forward while staying in contact with the front of frame and twist about 90 degrees. I will bet you see better action without adding water. Hope this helps. Jeff A Edit, this is for the Lot-O tumbler... So I have had the issue of movement really slowing down after 24 hours or so In each stage and no matter how much water I add it never gets it going as well as before. But this time after 24 hours or so in 500 stage I unplugged machine, turned barrel 90 degrees and started it back up. To my surprise the action/movement started rolling just like it should without adding a drop of water more. Not sure if it has to do with the direction of the barrel, or if barrel overtime is lowering into the frame more and causing the action to slow. But either way, it appears to have solved my problem so I'm a happy camper! Thanks for the tip!! I tried the 90 degree turn thing, and it really didn't do anything for me. I've got a batch in polish right now where I've been fighting to keep it moving after about 6 hours after the start. I took some short vids of the beginning of the stage with water only, then grit, then borax. It never moves anything like Rob's Jugglerguy when he starts the same stage - for that matter, any of them. With this run, I even went a bit lighter in rocks, and I'm seeing no real improvement. So, as soon as I'm done here, I'm going to do a cleanout and start the stage over. This time, however, I'm going to do one last check of springs and frame welds. If those look good, I'm moving my wood dowel. I informally surveyed a bunch of folks afer I bought my machine, and my dowel is much further away from frame than anyone else I had contact with. When I talked to the Lot-O folks about it, I really didn't get much help, as I was told that each machine is individually tuned with a test barrel - no rocket science, just the judgement of the tester that things look good. Hopefully, I'll end up with some positive results.
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Post by aDave on Aug 25, 2019 19:12:47 GMT -5
Well, I'm cautiously optomistic. Upon a restart of the polish stage, after moving the dowel, things were moving somewhat slowly, but not quite the standstill that I had seen before. As soon as I added polish, the circulation was much faster than I have had in the past. Just to get a baseline, I only added 2 tsp of borax instead of 3 (1 TBSP).
At this point, time will tell.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Aug 27, 2019 11:18:13 GMT -5
The only other random thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned here is load composition. I generally run ~50% total volume or more small ceramic media depending on the assortment of rock I'm tumbling. The only times I've had impaired movement not due to the load being too wet/dry has been when I had too much rock or too many large rocks. I may not be maximizing my yield but I'm happy with the results. This exactly, would be my only comment. Larger rocks, or funny shaped oblong rocks, have a adverse effect on the load. I use a different model vibratory tumbler though, which, oddly enough, does not need any grit at all for proper locomotion. But when I have problems with speed or motion, it is always related to funny shaped, larger rocks (and too many of them) that I am trying to run.
I have since dedicated one of my 6 lb. rotaries to tumbling larger, funny shaped or oblong rocks. Takes forever, but the end result (as I am sure you are well aware of) is still a great looking polished rock.
I realize that I am too new to be commenting here, but thought I would add this only.
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Post by aDave on Aug 27, 2019 13:28:52 GMT -5
This exactly, would be my only comment. Larger rocks, or funny shaped oblong rocks, have a adverse effect on the load. I use a different model vibratory tumbler though, which, oddly enough, does not need any grit at all for proper locomotion. But when I have problems with speed or motion, it is always related to funny shaped, larger rocks (and too many of them) that I am trying to run.
I was tending to run about 30% ceramics which has seemingly been the norm with "normal" rough. For this last batch that I'll be pulling today, I used more. Rocks have not been excessively large, and I think the composition (of rock size-wise) has been pretty balanced. I do have some oblong shaped items, but they aren't too large. I'm not sure this would really be a factor, as Rob Jugglerguy doesn't have issues when doing crosses, deer heads, and other odd shaped items. Ceramics are increased with these items since it's needed to help process the excessive flat surfaces. I know I don't have a definitive answer yet, but all of the suggestions thus far have been noted for future use. As mentioned, I'll be pulling a batch out of polish today, and the material is still moving after 42 hours. This is following the movement of the dowel. Before I moved the dowel, this same material in the polish stage was standing still after 1/4 the amount of time. I'll update later about moving the dowel and what I did to accomplish it.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Aug 27, 2019 15:17:05 GMT -5
My bet is on the dowel placement. I just feel bad for anyone who buys a poorly tuned Lot-O but doesn’t have a support group or a video to realize that it is not working properly. Who would ever think to move the dowel?
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Post by aDave on Aug 27, 2019 20:18:32 GMT -5
My bet is on the dowel placement. I just feel bad for anyone who buys a poorly tuned Lot-O but doesn’t have a support group or a video to realize that it is not working properly. Who would ever think to move the dowel? (Long post. For those who think it's TLDR, the summary is a slow moving Lot-O may be assisted by moving the dowel closer to the vertical upright of the frame.) Rob, I totally agree with you. Heck, I wouldn't have even known about the Lot-O if I hadn't ventured here in the first place. But, that said, the ability to go to the 'net and here really made me question how well my Lot-O was circulating material. Based upon what I'd seen, I was skeptical at the outset. With that skepticism, I contacted the Lot-O folks looking for help in how to deal with my "seemingly" slow circulating machine. Compared to everything I'd seen on the internet, my machine turned stuff much slower. In my contact with those folks, I was told that each machine was "eyeballed" (my quote) to establish where the dowel should be placed. A test barrel was inserted into the frame, and when the tester was happy with circulation, the dowel was glued in place. As I mentioned in another post, it's not rocket science. But, I was told that I could move the dowel, but I'd no longer have any warranty for the springs. OK, whatever. After that phone call, I struggled with my batches. While I could ultimately get through them, I found myself wondering why others have not expressed the same concern that I have. Fast forward to now. After not being able to complete a polish stage without material coming to a standstill near 18 hours, I decided to move the dowel. So far, that's the best thing I've done. I restarted my polish stage after things came to a halt at around 10-12 hours before the dowel move. As of today, I was able to complete the stage at 48 hours, with just a minor tweak. More below. Moving the dowel was not a big issue. It's held to the base with hot glue. All I did was use a razor and chisel to remove the glue off the base and dowel. If you're choosing to do this, your choice of tools may vary. Once the old glue was removed, it was time to move the dowel. Don't try to do this without the machine running. A fully loaded barrel in the frame with the machine running will make this task much more easy. Besides, you'll need to see how material circulates in different dowel positions, so the machine will have to be turned on. My stock machine's dowel was 1/2" from the vertical upright of the barrel frame. When I informally surveyed folks about their machines, the dowel was sometimes 1/8" from the upright. Some were a bit more. But, of all the folks I had contact with, mine was the furthest away out of any of them. Once I removed all existing hot glue, I turned on the machine and started to move the dowel closer to the vertical upright. Surprisingly, each incremental move did not come with a corresponding increase in barrel circulation. Sometimes there was an increase; sometimes there was a stall in movement. I ended up picking a spot for the dowel being about 1/8" from the vertical upright. This is quite significant from where my dowel was originally placed. I should note that once I moved my dowel from the original location, the noise became louder. That left me wondering if there is a "sweet spot" where the Lot-O folks are looking for noise and vibration reduction, as opposed to evaluating how well things are actually circulating. So, as it stands now, I was able to get through a complete polish stage (after moving the dowel) where I couldn't do that before. However, with the increased noise, which I'm assuming corresponds to vibration amplitude being increased, I'm wondering how long my springs will last. Maybe with the increased amplitude will come increased work hardening or fatigue- which may cause early breakage of the springs. So, that's it for now. You need a scorecard yet?
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Aug 29, 2019 12:15:52 GMT -5
That is a lot of good information. If I owned a Lot-O, then I would certainly be reading every one of these posts with great interest. I was not aware of a dowel part on the vibratory tumbler you own. Or that someone would need to tune the tumbler properly to get ideal results.
While I have had my struggles finding my own balances for tumbling, I am happy to be long past those days and happy to have bought a vibratory tumbler now. I am sure that once you get yours dialed in, you will quickly be churning out results that rival your legendary rotary efforts, in much less time and expense!
Thanks for sharing your experiments. It will no doubt help others.
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Post by aDave on Aug 29, 2019 13:16:09 GMT -5
That is a lot of good information. If I owned a Lot-O, then I would certainly be reading every one of these posts with great interest. I was not aware of a dowel part on the vibratory tumbler you own. Or that someone would need to tune the tumbler properly to get ideal results. While I have had my struggles finding my own balances for tumbling, I am happy to be long past those days and happy to have bought a vibratory tumbler now. I am sure that once you get yours dialed in, you will quickly be churning out results that rival your legendary rotary efforts, in much less time and expense! Thanks for sharing your experiments. It will no doubt help others. Thanks Bill. I truly think that my need to move the tuning dowel is somewhat of an anomaly - at least among the folks here. I can't recall anyone being concerned about how slowly material was circulating, and I was only able to find one old thread that spoke to moving the dowel. In that instance, the user had just replaced his springs and upon startup, material didn't move. His solution was moving the dowel which solved his problem. Just for your reference, I've added a photo of the dowel placement on a Lot-O, and this was mine before I moved it. Now, the edge of the dowel is about 1/8" from the vertical upright of the frame. The dowel serves as a fulcrum, and by moving it closer to the frame, it effectively lengthens the springs which are right below the rotating weighted fans.
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Post by grumpybill on Aug 31, 2019 13:08:56 GMT -5
Good to hear you might have sorted out your problem, aDave! Between your misplaced dowel rod and some postings on the RTH Facebook page, I'm beginning to wonder if Lot-O's quality control is slipping.
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redwings1
starting to shine!
Member since July 2009
Posts: 45
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Post by redwings1 on Sept 4, 2019 10:36:38 GMT -5
How fitting I should happen upon this post...I have the exact condition as you experienced. My single Lot-O struggles to move material before I add borax and polish, seems fine after that for 12 or so hours, then gets constipated regardless of how much or little water I spritz in there. I have just been doing 12hr clean-outs, not that recharging a 1/2 tsp of polish is breaking the bank, but I'd prefer to let it just run longer. After reading here, I cannot WAIT to try rotating the barrel 90deg and/or maybe playing around with the dowel location. Great post!
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Post by aDave on Sept 4, 2019 11:28:06 GMT -5
How fitting I should happen upon this post...I have the exact condition as you experienced. My single Lot-O struggles to move material before I add borax and polish, seems fine after that for 12 or so hours, then gets constipated regardless of how much or little water I spritz in there. I have just been doing 12hr clean-outs, not that recharging a 1/2 tsp of polish is breaking the bank, but I'd prefer to let it just run longer. After reading here, I cannot WAIT to try rotating the barrel 90deg and/or maybe playing around with the dowel location. Great post! Thanks, and good luck. Feel free to jump back in with your results. If you do move the dowel, simply use hot glue as was originally done. I just realized I forgot to mention that in my post above.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Sept 17, 2019 3:27:28 GMT -5
Hi Dave Does Lot-O use 2 flat springs stacked on top of each other ? I can not recall. It looks like 2 stacked in this photo. I think Lot-O uses common banding material for their spring stock. It may be that they moved to a different supplier and the banding material is softer or harder. The springs in the photo look a more silver color, could be lighting or reflection. My springs are like gun blue color. I had a broken spring. It was not easily noticeable for some reason(memory gone). Maybe the springs were stacked and one of the two springs was broken completely in half so it was not noticeable. Maybe replacing the springs if the dowel movement does not work would be an route to take. I will keep a spare set regardless.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Sept 17, 2019 4:31:08 GMT -5
Yes, mine has 2 springs stacked together on the dowel side. My gap is also 1/2 inch as set at factory. My springs cracked in half at the left screw in your photo(holding the spring to the red frame). It worked like a charm straight from the factory.
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Post by grumpybill on Sept 17, 2019 9:41:18 GMT -5
Hi Dave I think Lot-O uses common banding material for their spring stock. It may be that they moved to a different supplier and the banding material is softer or harder. My thoughts exactly. The springs on mine (bought used) are black and look like the banding straps used on cubes of brick, which vary greatly in hardness/softness/"springiness".
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Post by aDave on Sept 17, 2019 12:15:47 GMT -5
I think Lot-O uses common banding material for their spring stock. It may be that they moved to a different supplier and the banding material is softer or harder. The springs in the photo look a more silver color, could be lighting or reflection. My springs are like gun blue color. I had a broken spring. It was not easily noticeable for some reason(memory gone). Maybe the springs were stacked and one of the two springs was broken completely in half so it was not noticeable. Maybe replacing the springs if the dowel movement does not work would be an route to take. I will keep a spare set regardless. Hi James. Nice to hear from you. My springs are the blue/dark color that you describe, and it's just the reflection that makes the look silver. I recall your broken spring from when you posted a photo about your dowel position, so that was the first thing I checked for. Second was to check if any of the spot welds were bad on the frame. In both areas, all looked good. I was able to get through a full 48 hours in the polish stage after moving the dowel. I was barely able to get past 24 hours prior to that as material simply came to a halt. I've yet to do a full Lot-O run (all stages) since the dowel was moved, so we'll see what happens when I do. Thanks for posting about getting a spare set of springs. That's something I wanted to do but simply forgot about it.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Oct 20, 2019 4:36:19 GMT -5
I think Lot-O uses common banding material for their spring stock. It may be that they moved to a different supplier and the banding material is softer or harder. The springs in the photo look a more silver color, could be lighting or reflection. My springs are like gun blue color. I had a broken spring. It was not easily noticeable for some reason(memory gone). Maybe the springs were stacked and one of the two springs was broken completely in half so it was not noticeable. Maybe replacing the springs if the dowel movement does not work would be an route to take. I will keep a spare set regardless. Hi James. Nice to hear from you. My springs are the blue/dark color that you describe, and it's just the reflection that makes the look silver. I recall your broken spring from when you posted a photo about your dowel position, so that was the first thing I checked for. Second was to check if any of the spot welds were bad on the frame. In both areas, all looked good. I was able to get through a full 48 hours in the polish stage after moving the dowel. I was barely able to get past 24 hours prior to that as material simply came to a halt. I've yet to do a full Lot-O run (all stages) since the dowel was moved, so we'll see what happens when I do. Thanks for posting about getting a spare set of springs. That's something I wanted to do but simply forgot about it. Ship that sucker back Dave. Demand a new unit. Tell them all the king's men and king's horses at RTH can not solve the problem which is the truth. I will say that the Lot-O does not operate well with too thick of a slurry. On glass for instance, I run AO 220 with sugar. I have to use the powerful Vibrasonic to rotate in the thick slurry. The rotation comes to a halt in the Lot-O with this thick slurry. Polish stage is usually the thinest slurry step so this is a puzzle.
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Nov 11, 2019 14:26:13 GMT -5
I just happened upon this thread doing a search about the tuning bar.
I ran my first load of rocks in my Lot O Twin like a champ through the 220 stage, a few squirts of water now and then to keep things moving is all it took.
24 hours after beginning the AO 500 stage movement came almost to a halt, so I added a few squirts of water. Then 10 minutes later a few more. After doing this about 10 times with no changes in movement I drained the excess water off and checked the movement again. No change.
I am running about a 50/50 mix of small ceramics and a good variety of sizes of rock, none very large, all very rounded.
I did a cleanout and put them back in with just wet rocks and 1/2 tsp AO 500 (skipped the 1 tbsp borax). They are moving well, but not as vigorously as I see most of single bucket Lot O's move material.
In most videos I have seen of the Lot O, people are running a mix of large and small ceramics. Could using only small ceramics be part of this problem?
My tuning dowel is also about 1/2" from the frame on one side, and 5/8" on the other side. Kinda weird it's not set evenly. I went ahead and checked all my springs and the frame very well. The weights are both lined up on the same side. I believe I may try moving the dowel, at least to even the one end up with the other.
Eric
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Nov 11, 2019 17:53:30 GMT -5
Sure enough. I moved my dowel until the front face of the dowel and the rear face of the frame were lined up with each other and it more than doubled the rate the rocks were cycling past the opening.
It was a little louder (almost like the rocks were airborne inside and bouncing on the bottom), so I backed it off about 1/8 inch before I secured it with brads.
That amount reduced the rate of cycling approximately 1/4, but it is still more than double the snails pace I had before.
Very happy that I got my Lot-O to function like the rest of them I see in videos!
Eric
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Post by rockjunquie on Nov 11, 2019 18:04:19 GMT -5
I have been watching this with interest, too, aDave. Mine slows quite a bit in the final stage. It moves, but slow and nothing I do will change that. I really struggle to not add too much water. I get a polish, but I have to really watch it since I typically do flats. Next load, I'm gonna pay close attention. I think I'll be moving my dowel as it is pretty far back.
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