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Post by aDave on Nov 11, 2019 18:09:07 GMT -5
Sure enough. I moved my dowel until the front face of the dowel and the rear face of the frame were lined up with each other and it more than doubled the rate the rocks were cycling past the opening. It was a little louder (almost like the rocks were airborne inside and bouncing on the bottom), so I backed it off about 1/8 inch before I secured it with brads. That amount reduced the rate of cycling approximately 1/4, but it is still more than double the snails pace I had before. Very happy that I got my Lot-O to function like the rest of them I see in videos! Eric One other thing to note, your tennis balls "might" be dampening the vibration too much. I don't recall where I read it, but I remember seeing a note somewhere that too much cushion may have an adverse effect on vibration/movement. But, perhaps you moving the dowel has offset this issue for you.
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Post by aDave on Nov 11, 2019 18:14:38 GMT -5
I have been watching this with interest, too, aDave . Mine slows quite a bit in the final stage. It moves, but slow and nothing I do will change that. I really struggle to not add too much water. I get a polish, but I have to really watch it since I typically do flats. Next load, I'm gonna pay close attention. I think I'll be moving my dowel as it is pretty far back. I've been too lazy lately, so I haven't yet run a complete batch since moving the dowel - only the polish stage. Since I was able to finish a total polish stage after the move, it will be interesting to see how much faster (circulation-wise) the initial stages will be. I reglued my dowel, but I'm thinking about using brads. This will allow me to move the dowel with little effort, as I'll just have holes at different distances from the frame.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Nov 11, 2019 18:45:38 GMT -5
One other thing to note, your tennis balls "might" be dampening the vibration too much. I don't recall where I read it, but I remember seeing a note somewhere that too much cushion may have an adverse effect on vibration/movement. But, perhaps you moving the dowel has offset this issue for you. This is entirely possible, although I ran for 2 days on concrete and noticed no difference adding the tennis balls, except for noise level through the floor.
Just because I didn't notice doesn't mean it didn't slow the movement. I can see the balls dampening at least the noise between the blocks and floor, and that in turn has to have an effect on tumbling action, even if it's small. I have it mounted to 133# of blocks, I'm not sure how it's tiny weights could move that much weight, I can't!
However I doubt the dowel being at least 1/8" if not 1/4" off from one side to the other helped any. Before I noticed that one side of the twin produced a slurry much faster, consistently.
We will see how long the springs last after my "tampering". If they last more than 6 months I will make it a fully adjustable and locking sliding system.
Eric
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Post by rockjunquie on Nov 11, 2019 20:18:50 GMT -5
One other thing to note, your tennis balls "might" be dampening the vibration too much. I don't recall where I read it, but I remember seeing a note somewhere that too much cushion may have an adverse effect on vibration/movement. But, perhaps you moving the dowel has offset this issue for you. This is entirely possible, although I ran for 2 days on concrete and noticed no difference adding the tennis balls, except for noise level through the floor.
Just because I didn't notice doesn't mean it didn't slow the movement. I can see the balls dampening at least the noise between the blocks and floor, and that in turn has to have an effect on tumbling action, even if it's small. I have it mounted to 133# of blocks, I'm not sure how it's tiny weights could move that much weight, I can't!
However I doubt the dowel being at least 1/8" if not 1/4" off from one side to the other helped any. Before I noticed that one side of the twin produced a slurry much faster, consistently.
We will see how long the springs last after my "tampering". If they last more than 6 months I will make it a fully adjustable and locking sliding system.
Eric
I see you are going to give TheRock a run for his money. He's our McGuyver, but 133 lbs of block, I don't think even he would do that. LOL! JK guys, I love the can do spirit.
Have you thought of a foam mat instead of balls? The kind they use for exercise equipment? I have a single lotto wth 2 cinderblocks and some pink foam under and I think that works fine.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Nov 11, 2019 20:49:47 GMT -5
I see you are going to give TheRock a run for his money. He's our McGuyver, but 133 lbs of block, I don't think even he would do that. LOL! JK guys, I love the can do spirit.
Have you thought of a foam mat instead of balls? The kind they use for exercise equipment? I have a single lotto wth 2 cinderblocks and some pink foam under and I think that works fine.
I did read about that somewhere, but the tennis balls were staring me in the face begging to be used for some creative purpose. I also have some foam exercise mat that of course never gets used.
Might give that a try. Rubber, like a tennis ball, is a super vibration absorbant.
I may need something that absorbs sound instead of vibration, like a foam mat. If it works I will let ya know.
Eric
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Post by TheRock on Nov 11, 2019 22:21:52 GMT -5
Thanks Tela rockjunquie thanks for the vote of confidence, Eric D. WoW 133# of Blocks yeah that is a LOAD! Well Im gonna tell ya what I think I have 14 Tumblers Spinning full time from spring to end of fall right now just have 5 running 1 Lortone 2 LOT"O" Tumblers and two UV-s. The LOT"O"s are Okay I have 3 of them 2 in operation and 1 as a Spare. As far as Cost These tumblers the LOT"O" single is $197.00 and the double is $270,00 then The Thumler UV-4 is $195.00 the UV-10 is $245.00 Then the UV-18 is $335.00 Then the UV-45 which is 57 lbs Industrial is $ 650.00 all 4 of these Thumlers are UTRA QUITE have rubber feet and just sitting on the bench don't vibrate or move a nano of an inch. If I had known what I know now I would have purchased the THUMLER UV-4 for $2.00 less oh and by the way you can buy a 10 lb barrel and you then have a UV-10. Much more flexibility with them. I own a UV-10 and UV-18 and in my honest opinion I like them much better. Good luck with whatever you buy.
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Post by rockjunquie on Nov 11, 2019 22:30:26 GMT -5
Thanks Tela rockjunquie thanks for the vote of confidence, Eric D. WoW 133# of Blocks yeah that is a LOAD! Well Im gonna tell ya what I think I have 14 Tumblers Spinning full time from spring to end of fall right now just have 5 running 1 Lortone 2 LOT"O" Tumblers and two UV-s. The LOT"O"s are Okay I have 3 of them 2 in operation and 1 as a Spare. As far as Cost These tumblers the LOT"O" single is $197.00 and the double is $270,00 then The Thumler UV-4 is $195.00 the UV-10 is $245.00 Then the UV-18 is $335.00 Then the UV-45 which is 57 lbs Industrial is $ 650.00 all 4 of these Thumlers are UTRA QUITE have rubber feet and just sitting on the bench don't vibrate or move a nano of an inch. If I had known what I know now I would have purchased the THUMLER UV-4 for $2.00 less oh and by the way you can buy a 10 lb barrel and you then have a UV-10. Much more flexibility with them. I own a UV-10 and UV-18 and in my honest opinion I like them much better. Good luck with whatever you buy. I noticed your avatar. Thank you for your service and Happy Veterans Day.
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Post by TheRock on Nov 12, 2019 2:48:49 GMT -5
Thanks Tela rockjunquie thanks for the vote of confidence, Eric D. WoW 133# of Blocks yeah that is a LOAD! Well Im gonna tell ya what I think I have 14 Tumblers Spinning full time from spring to end of fall right now just have 5 running 1 Lortone 2 LOT"O" Tumblers and two UV-s. The LOT"O"s are Okay I have 3 of them 2 in operation and 1 as a Spare. As far as Cost These tumblers the LOT"O" single is $197.00 and the double is $270,00 then The Thumler UV-4 is $195.00 the UV-10 is $245.00 Then the UV-18 is $335.00 Then the UV-45 which is 57 lbs Industrial is $ 650.00 all 4 of these Thumlers are UTRA QUITE have rubber feet and just sitting on the bench don't vibrate or move a nano of an inch. If I had known what I know now I would have purchased the THUMLER UV-4 for $2.00 less oh and by the way you can buy a 10 lb barrel and you then have a UV-10. Much more flexibility with them. I own a UV-10 and UV-18 and in my honest opinion I like them much better. Good luck with whatever you buy. I noticed your avatar. Thank you for your service and Happy Veterans Day. Thank you Shucks it was nothing, If I were a young man Id do it again. I think all young men should be required to serve. In some Countries It Is Mandatory. there would be alot less SNOW FLAKES roaming around! I took an oath it was something like this>> I, R.C.D. do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." I took this oath on Jan 21st, 1976. My oath has no expiration date.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 12, 2019 5:23:05 GMT -5
I tinkered with the Vibrasonic vibe and the Lot-O to a lesser amount. For what it's worth: The Vibrasonic is more of a self contained vibration device. It operates on a thick soft pad or a concrete surface about equally. The Lot-O depends on it's specified block foundation, but also the dowel location which may be a tricky adjustment. The Vibrasonic vibrates rocks even in a thick slurry and coarsest of abrasives. This is a nice capability but not necessary to polish. The Lot-O is easily slowed by thicker slurries. This is unfortunate when running coarser abrasives but by no means a problem for polishing, just stick with 220 or finer abrasives. The unmodified Vibrasonic bruised obsidian even in the thickest slurries. The Lot-O was hard pressed to bruise obsidian in the thinnest of slurries. Effect of modifications: The modification to the Vibrasonic shortened the distance of it's original vibration travel. But more importantly it softened the reversal speed of each vibration to reduce the impacts on the rocks. Changes were made by adding weight to the hopper and moving the hopper closer to the vibration source to attain these effects. In the case of the Lot-O testing would have to be performed to understand the effect of moving the dowel back or forward. Moving the dowel is in effect changing the amount of spring force and nothing to do with adding weight to hopper or moving hopper closer to vibration source. EricD, as related to the AO 46 discussion
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 12, 2019 5:26:56 GMT -5
Components of a vibrating system: M is the mass of the hopper x is the length of travel of each vibration k is the spring force per distance of travel c is any form of shock absorption(probably not present in a rock vibe) F is the rotating force from the off-balance motor And then the geometry of the structure of the machine to consider. Moving the Lot-O dowel is changing variable 'k'. Unfortunately high level math would be involved to make predictable adjustments, or trail and error real world tests can be tried. So I used trail and error real world tests on the Vibrasonic and it took a long time to see if the modifications made a better polish because a batch had to be run each time. Believe, I was lucky to accomplish improvements. It would take a serious mathematician with serious testing equipment to make predictable modifications to a vibe.
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Post by TheRock on Nov 12, 2019 14:51:36 GMT -5
I tinkered with the Vibrasonic vibe and the Lot-O to a lesser amount. For what it's worth: The Vibrasonic is more of a self contained vibration device. It operates on a thick soft pad or a concrete surface about equally. The Lot-O depends on it's specified block foundation, but also the dowel location which may be a tricky adjustment. THE UV MODELS WORK RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX AT LEAST THE UV-10 and UV-18 NO MOVEMENT AT ALL.The Vibrasonic vibrates rocks even in a thick slurry and coarsest of abrasives. This is a nice capability but not necessary to polish. The Lot-O is easily slowed by thicker slurries. This is unfortunate when running coarser abrasives but by no means a problem for polishing, just stick with 220 or finer abrasives. THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I NOTICED THE UV TUMBLERS ARE NOT EFFECTED BY THE SLURRY THICKNESS AND ADDING WATER TO THIN THE SLURRY IS NOT NEEDED AS OFTEN. MANY TIMES I DON'T OPEN THE LID FOR 3 DAYS AT WHICH TIME IS THE END OF THE STAGE AND TIME TO DO A WASH OUT.The unmodified Vibrasonic bruised obsidian even in the thickest slurries. I SURELY HAVE NOT POLISHED EVERY OBSIDIAN KNOWN TO MAN, BUT I HAVE POSTED PICS OF SEVERAL TYPES OF OBSIDIAN. The Lot-O was hard pressed to bruise obsidian in the thinnest of slurries. ONE THING ABOUT A UV-10 OR UV-18 YOU CAN LOAD FULLER OF MEDIA AT A BIGGER RATIO OF MEDIA THAN STONES AND YOU GET A BETTER POLISH AS THE STONES HAVE LESS OF A CHANCE TO COLLIDE WITH ONE ANOTHER. Effect of modifications: The modification to the Vibrasonic shortened the distance of it's original vibration travel. But more importantly it softened the reversal speed of each vibration to reduce the impacts on the rocks. Changes were made by adding weight to the hopper and moving the hopper closer to the vibration source to attain these effects. I HAVE NOT DONE ANY MODIFICATIONS ON THE UV-s AS THEY WORK RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. In the case of the Lot-O testing would have to be performed to understand the effect of moving the dowel back or forward. Moving the dowel is in effect changing the amount of spring force and nothing to do with adding weight to hopper or moving hopper closer to vibration source. Jim not starting a debate here I just answered questions comparing with your results on the Vibrasonic and mine with the UV.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Nov 12, 2019 15:57:41 GMT -5
I view the dowel as a pivot point, not a spring tension adjuster. The further you move the pivot point from the motor and weights, the more motion you get at the front of the machine (or, the more effect the weights have on the weight on the other end of the see-saw, in this case rocks). I believe if I were to move the pivot point to, say, halfway between the motor and the load, the machine would shoot rocks out of the top of the barrel. I will try to attach a picture that makes an attempt at showing the motion of the machine relative to the pivot point as I see it. Keep in mind that the weights on the motor cannot move the springs horizontally as they are attached to the base, so the front of the machine can only travel up and down. As the back of the machine is sitting on a pivot, it cannot move up and down (or if it does, it is very slight). However the up and down motion at the front of the machine can move the top of the machine back and forth, pivoting on the dowel. The motor, as it sits overhanging the pivot, can use the weights to move it's self up and down, slightly, as the pivot is so close to it as opposed to the barrels.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 13, 2019 3:04:15 GMT -5
I view the dowel as a pivot point, not a spring tension adjuster. The further you move the pivot point from the motor and weights, the more motion you get at the front of the machine (or, the more effect the weights have on the weight on the other end of the see-saw, in this case rocks). I believe if I were to move the pivot point to, say, halfway between the motor and the load, the machine would shoot rocks out of the top of the barrel. I will try to attach a picture that makes an attempt at showing the motion of the machine relative to the pivot point as I see it. Keep in mind that the weights on the motor cannot move the springs horizontally as they are attached to the base, so the front of the machine can only travel up and down. As the back of the machine is sitting on a pivot, it cannot move up and down (or if it does, it is very slight). However the up and down motion at the front of the machine can move the top of the machine back and forth, pivoting on the dowel. The motor, as it sits overhanging the pivot, can use the weights to move it's self up and down, slightly, as the pivot is so close to it as opposed to the barrels. This is correct, the pivot point is changing which allows the hopper to travel more or less distance. So by changing the pivot point you increase or decrease the distance the Lot-O's flat spring is compressed or extended over on the left side of the photo. "According to Hooke’s law, the force required to compress or extend a spring is directly proportional to the distance it is stretched."
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 13, 2019 3:49:20 GMT -5
I tinkered with the Vibrasonic vibe and the Lot-O to a lesser amount. For what it's worth: The Vibrasonic is more of a self contained vibration device. It operates on a thick soft pad or a concrete surface about equally. The Lot-O depends on it's specified block foundation, but also the dowel location which may be a tricky adjustment. THE UV MODELS WORK RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX AT LEAST THE UV-10 and UV-18 NO MOVEMENT AT ALL.The Vibrasonic vibrates rocks even in a thick slurry and coarsest of abrasives. This is a nice capability but not necessary to polish. The Lot-O is easily slowed by thicker slurries. This is unfortunate when running coarser abrasives but by no means a problem for polishing, just stick with 220 or finer abrasives. THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I NOTICED THE UV TUMBLERS ARE NOT EFFECTED BY THE SLURRY THICKNESS AND ADDING WATER TO THIN THE SLURRY IS NOT NEEDED AS OFTEN. MANY TIMES I DON'T OPEN THE LID FOR 3 DAYS AT WHICH TIME IS THE END OF THE STAGE AND TIME TO DO A WASH OUT.The unmodified Vibrasonic bruised obsidian even in the thickest slurries. I SURELY HAVE NOT POLISHED EVERY OBSIDIAN KNOWN TO MAN, BUT I HAVE POSTED PICS OF SEVERAL TYPES OF OBSIDIAN. The Lot-O was hard pressed to bruise obsidian in the thinnest of slurries. ONE THING ABOUT A UV-10 OR UV-18 YOU CAN LOAD FULLER OF MEDIA AT A BIGGER RATIO OF MEDIA THAN STONES AND YOU GET A BETTER POLISH AS THE STONES HAVE LESS OF A CHANCE TO COLLIDE WITH ONE ANOTHER. Effect of modifications: The modification to the Vibrasonic shortened the distance of it's original vibration travel. But more importantly it softened the reversal speed of each vibration to reduce the impacts on the rocks. Changes were made by adding weight to the hopper and moving the hopper closer to the vibration source to attain these effects. I HAVE NOT DONE ANY MODIFICATIONS ON THE UV-s AS THEY WORK RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. In the case of the Lot-O testing would have to be performed to understand the effect of moving the dowel back or forward. Moving the dowel is in effect changing the amount of spring force and nothing to do with adding weight to hopper or moving hopper closer to vibration source. Jim not starting a debate here I just answered questions comparing with your results on the Vibrasonic and mine with the UV. No debate here Bob. The Vibrasonic would not polish obsidian or glass out of the box which was my concern. Not as well as the Lot-O anyway. This is truly a fault of the Vibrasonic. Most vibes are designed to polish Mohs 7 rocks and many vibes have difficulty polishing softer materials particularly obsidians and glass. My Vibrasonic is really ugly after mods but it does slap a polish down using only 20% media with glass in 4 days out of the rotary: And big rocks. Another test for a vibe:
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Post by TheRock on Nov 13, 2019 3:54:47 GMT -5
Jim not starting a debate here I just answered questions comparing with your results on the Vibrasonic and mine with the UV. No debate here Bob. The Vibrasonic would not polish obsidian or glass out of the box which was my concern. Not as well as the Lot-O anyway. This is truly a fault of the Vibrasonic. Most vibes are designed to polish Mohs 7 rocks and many vibes have difficulty polishing softer materials particularly obsidians and glass. My Vibrasonic is really ugly after mods but it does slap a polish down using only 20% media with glass in 4 days out of the rotary: Yep those are flat GORGEOUS No doubt about that! No doubt your the KING of high speed Polishing!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 13, 2019 4:33:52 GMT -5
But why did I have to spend time doing back yard trial and error modifications on the Vibrasonic to make it do well with glass and large rocks Bob ? Vibrasonic should have solved that issue. It did fine on average tumble size agates, and does just as well on them after the mods. The Vibrasonic engineer was about a 100 times more educated than I on vibration analysis and had a lot more resources. He should have solved these issues.
What amazes me is my hopper is steel, no rubber or plastic lining. Rocks or glass against steel go figure. The mind would tell you that a hard steel hopper is going to ruin any chance of a fine polish.
The aluminum oxides have little wear effect on the steel. AO is simply not aggressive compared to silicon carbide. The AO 220 step cleans the heavy rust coating on each batch before the polish step(s). Sometimes the hopper is really rusty(after sitting for a long period) and the AO 220 step has a nasty rust slurry. The steel is like a mirror after the polish step, and of course dull after the 220 step. The polish step is usually done when the milky white AO polish slurry begins to turn slightly brown from the removal of steel.
Anyway, a lot can be learned about different types of abrasives when using a vibe with an exposed steel hopper.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 13, 2019 4:53:01 GMT -5
An observation regarding the Lot-O spring.
Most coil springs are linear. Most vibes use linear coil springs. A linear coil spring will depress say 1/8" with 1 pound, 1/4" with 2 pounds, 3/8" with 3 pounds, 1/2" with 4 pounds, etc etc.
However the Lot-O spring does not likely behave that way because it is a flat spring. It probably behaves like this: 1/8" with 1 pound, 1/4" with 4 pounds, 3/8" with 10 pounds, etc etc.
Just saying that the Lot-O spring is a bit more complicated. Ingenious and effective design but likely more sensitive to slight adjustments.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Nov 13, 2019 7:59:17 GMT -5
An observation regarding the Lot-O spring. Most coil springs are linear. Most vibes use linear coil springs. A linear coil spring will depress say 1/8" with 1 pound, 1/4" with 2 pounds, 3/8" with 3 pounds, 1/2" with 4 pounds, etc etc. However the Lot-O spring does not likely behave that way because it is a flat spring. It probably behaves like this: 1/8" with 1 pound, 1/4" with 4 pounds, 3/8" with 10 pounds, etc etc. Just saying that the Lot-O spring is a bit more complicated. Ingenious and effective design but likely more sensitive to slight adjustments. The springs on the Lot O are also trying to be stretched length-wise by the weight (which of course they can't be stretched by that small weight, just pulled on) kind of like when one lays in a hammock the weight pulls horizontally on the attaching points.
I have nothing to compare how sensitive it is to adjustments since I only own one brand of vibe, but I did have to make a substantial move of the dowel in order to improve the action, as you can see from the factory sharpie mark compared with the new dowel location. When I remove the tennis balls from under the blocks I think I will create my adjustable dowel system and possibly do some unscientific videos on how much a given adjustment affects action in the barrel. After polish stage is done on the rocks in there.
That is a beautiful shine on those jamesp
Eric
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 13, 2019 11:32:36 GMT -5
More people needs to experiment with certain brands of vibes to improve polish on softer stuff. A proper running Lot-O is a fine polishing machine. Unfortunately the end polish controls a successful outcome when tinkering with a vibe EricD. The rocks must move fluidly in the vibe, call it the action. That is a given. Whether are not the spring is linear or non-linear really does not matter. The Lot-o spring is a hammock, perfect analogy. Moving that dowel has a big effect. An adjustable pivot point sounds like the way to go. I think you will find one setting will be the do-all setting. One issue with the Lot-O is it is that the off-balance generator is quite under powered IMO. So adjustments like adding weight to the hopper or forcing the hopper to travel too far may be beyond the ability of the off-balance generator to handle. On the other hand, the Vibrasonic has a big flat shaking table top with two threaded studs sticking up. An old school beast. You can bolt hoppers from 6 pounds to over 50 pound capacities and the 1/3 HP(power eating) motor for off-balance generator will handle them easily. The way I tamed the Vibrasonic was by adding weight to the hopper(a welded steel hopper) and lowered the hopper closer to the off-balance generator under the shaking table to reduce the vibration travel or distance. The result was a firm vibration with short travel and mild reversals on each vibration. It is the sharp reversals that bruises rocks(saw tooth wave verses sin wave). If you are going to tinker get a Vibrasonic. It is the experimenters dream. Built like a brick schnitt house. I got a used one for $300.
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Post by HankRocks on Nov 13, 2019 13:53:08 GMT -5
More people needs to experiment with certain brands of vibes to improve polish on softer stuff. A proper running Lot-O is a fine polishing machine. Unfortunately the end polish controls a successful outcome when tinkering with a vibe EricD . The rocks must move fluidly in the vibe, call it the action. That is a given. Whether are not the spring is linear or non-linear really does not matter. The Lot-o spring is a hammock, perfect analogy. Moving that dowel has a big effect. An adjustable pivot point sounds like the way to go. I think you will find one setting will be the do-all setting. One issue with the Lot-O is it is that the off-balance generator is quite under powered IMO. So adjustments like adding weight to the hopper or forcing the hopper to travel too far may be beyond the ability of the off-balance generator to handle. On the other hand, the Vibrasonic has a big flat shaking table top with two threaded studs sticking up. An old school beast. You can bolt hoppers from 6 pounds to over 50 pound capacities and the 1/3 HP(power eating) motor for off-balance generator will handle them easily. The way I tamed the Vibrasonic was by adding weight to the hopper(a welded steel hopper) and lowered the hopper closer to the off-balance generator under the shaking table to reduce the vibration travel or distance. The result was a firm vibration with short travel and mild reversals on each vibration. It is the sharp reversals that bruises rocks(saw tooth wave verses sin wave). If you are going to tinker get a Vibrasonic. It is the experimenters dream. Built like a brick schnitt house. I got a used one for $300. For myself I really like the Mini-Sonic. Having a dial to control vibration is really nice. Have a load of Obsidian Pendants that were giving me fits in the UV, kept frosting on the thin edges. They are in the soap burnish now. By dialing back the vib rate a bit(and extra polish slurry and pea gravel) the frosting is gone. For regular a normal Agate/Wood load the UV-18 works fine. I have the 3 hopper, MT-14. Each of the 3 - 4 pound hoppers has it's own control which allows me to run just one for small loads. Just wish they made a larger hopper as the opening on the 4 pound hopper does not allow anything larger than 3 inch. A 8 to 10 pound hopper would be really nice. The mini-sonic is being reserved for AO only, and everything coming out of SiC get's a 5 hour soap run before the AO.
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