jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Nov 24, 2019 6:52:27 GMT -5
No matter, always treat electrical devices as hot ! Does a capacitor store a charge ? Believe it does. A permanent split capacitor motor (PSC) will not store a charge in the capacitor, since the start winding is always connected, hence no bleed resistor is required. If starting torque is an issue, a 5-2-1 start capacitor can be added at little cost. (Such as CSRU1) This statement is of interest knave. But I don't understand lol. Are you saying this ceiling fan motor is PSC design ? No need to explain PSC design, let me study it first. I don't want to burden you with my education.
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Post by 1dave on Nov 24, 2019 10:28:23 GMT -5
I thought I was doing well with my 2A 1/12 water circulation motor... (only run 2 15lb barrels)
lets see a 1 Amp motor would save me an amp 1A at 120V =120 watts, * 30days*24 hrs /1000 = ~ 86 kWh /month, @$0.13/kwh = $11 per month to run it, looks like it'd pay for itself in two months... typing and calculation on the fly here, so somethings probably wrong.
running things 24/7 adds up. See plenty of homemade tumblers with +/- 5A motors, always think that seems wasteful.
OK This is the real dope on efficiency - the cost of power at the electric company ! Thanks for the power cost calculation. 1/12 hp rolling 30 pounds of rock sounds in line with my 1/8 hp/1140 rpm rolling 40 pounds.(yes many other variables are lurking). $11 per month rolling 30 pounds of rock sounds inline with my $30 per month rolling 80 to 100 pounds of rock with a 1/4 hp or 1/3 hp motor. I know the cost was $30 a month because I have a dedicated power company meter that costs me $20/month with zero power on, and $50 per month with the `90 pound tumbler running. Amp draw has a lot of variables. For instance an overloaded small motor can draw more amps than an under loaded larger motor. You are at $121/year and I at $360/year. Cost to convert to more efficient system is certainly in a reduced power cost. This is the reason I wanted to try this direct coupled ceiling fan motor oregon . And many do have over powered tumblers. For instance, this unit rolling 40 pounds with 1/3 hp. Maybe the motor is sized for minimum amp draw. But this seems over powered: permanent split capacitor (PSC) motor www.beckettcorp.com/support/tech-bulletins/an-introduction-to-psc-motors/Tumbling rocks is an extremely complicated Simple Subject !
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Post by knave on Nov 24, 2019 10:52:35 GMT -5
I will get back on this thread after church. What is finally sinking in to me is these ceiling fan motors don’t work like we are thinking. They are an “inside out” motor, ie the stator (stationary windings) are in the center, and the rotor is actually outside of the stator. You can’t use the “hollow shaft” section to drive a shaft as wiring is connected to it.
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Post by knave on Nov 24, 2019 11:24:33 GMT -5
Pic upload didn’t work.
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Post by knave on Nov 24, 2019 13:27:28 GMT -5
What type of motor are these 12/14/16 pole fan motors knave ?(you lost me when you mentioned the PSC motor he he.) Are you saying they are PSC motors ? The very subject matter you are discussing is the very subject matter I am uneducated on. The large diameter direct coupled stator interests me for possible energy savings on a rotary rock tumbler. Keep in mind these ceiling fan motors are cheap and readily available to us hobby folks and turn at final shaft speeds useful for rock tumbling and sphere machines. jamesp you are correct. The motors with small mfd capacitors (4, 5, 7.5, 10) that are not switched through a start relay are permanent split capacitor (PSC) motors. They have better ability to start under load than a shaded pole motor. In refrigeration, single phase reciprocating compressors with high starting torque requirements (such as a pump down system) will also need a high mfd capacitor wired between start and run, controlled by a potential relay. It puts the motor in “ludicrous mode” but neither the motor or the capacitor is designed to operate more than 1 or 2 seconds with the start cap energized. When the motor is up to speed, the rising voltage potential between the common and start windings serve to energize and open the potential relay.
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Post by knave on Nov 24, 2019 13:41:19 GMT -5
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Post by knave on Nov 24, 2019 13:42:27 GMT -5
Finally getting cloudinary figured out on mobile devices.
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Post by 1dave on Nov 24, 2019 14:11:46 GMT -5
WOW! Lots of top notch info! Photo of contents too long, so . . .
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,630
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Post by NRG on Nov 24, 2019 14:37:09 GMT -5
jamespDoes this motor have a torque rating? AzRockGeek Tim, have a look at these motors. 1/12 HP 240rpm good inexpensive candidate for a sphere machine. Nope. I will let you know Scott about the torque. Tried looking them up and finding more tech info using it's GE part number but part number not totally legible in photo. If the shaft cannot be stopped with my fingers it seems it would have plenty of torque for a sphere machine. ?? I am aware sphere machines use the motors with the face mount gear reducers. Aren't they totally enclosed ? In researching similar GE motors the prices ranged from $80 to $150+. It is likely a high grade well made motor. Yes, the gear motors often used on sphere machines are enclosed. They operate at 30in-lb, but I don't know if that is before or after the 17/1 reduction. I suspect before because they are torquey as heck. While these are open case motors it would not be difficult to put a dust shroud over them to mostly protect them from lapidary dusts.
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,630
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Post by NRG on Nov 24, 2019 14:43:40 GMT -5
I like the idea of a direct drive sphere machine myself.
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Post by oregon on Nov 24, 2019 16:59:44 GMT -5
They operate at 30in-lb, but I don't know if that is before or after the 17/1 reduction. I suspect before because they are torquey as heck. I like the idea of a direct drive sphere machine
I keep thinking about these robotics components several folks sell, Example with rugged planetary gear box motors that have torque specs as good as the old Xerox motors... DC would be trivial to control the speed... the link above has 117rpm 960 oz-in, or 223 rpm 530 oz-in motors...
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,630
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Post by NRG on Nov 24, 2019 18:24:55 GMT -5
They operate at 30in-lb, but I don't know if that is before or after the 17/1 reduction. I suspect before because they are torquey as heck. I like the idea of a direct drive sphere machine
I keep thinking about these robotics components several folks sell, Example with rugged planetary gear box motors that have torque specs as good as the old Xerox motors... DC would be trivial to control the speed... the link above has 117rpm 960 oz-in, or 223 rpm 530 oz-in motors... Those are stepper motors with amazing specs. Speed control is with a stepper controller. Trivial as you say. AzRockGeek is a DC specialist of sorts. Tim, any thoughts on these?
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Nov 24, 2019 18:28:14 GMT -5
They operate at 30in-lb, but I don't know if that is before or after the 17/1 reduction. I suspect before because they are torquey as heck. I like the idea of a direct drive sphere machine
I keep thinking about these robotics components several folks sell, Example with rugged planetary gear box motors that have torque specs as good as the old Xerox motors... DC would be trivial to control the speed... the link above has 117rpm 960 oz-in, or 223 rpm 530 oz-in motors... However a DC motor will have brushes, something we should stay away from.
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Post by Lapidaryrough / Jack Cole on Nov 24, 2019 18:37:00 GMT -5
re-think the OHM - scale, When using a ( 1 ) amp. motor on hard load. Cont. duty will fail!
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Post by knave on Nov 25, 2019 0:13:16 GMT -5
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Nov 25, 2019 2:14:12 GMT -5
I will get back on this thread after church. What is finally sinking in to me is these ceiling fan motors don’t work like we are thinking. They are an “inside out” motor, ie the stator (stationary windings) are in the center, and the rotor is actually outside of the stator. You can’t use the “hollow shaft” section to drive a shaft as wiring is connected to it. Oh this issue entered my mind when ordering these ceiling fan motors knave. A perplexing issue. Looking at the tripod mount it appears the outside of the motor is stationary. Some how some way the power wires have to be connected to a non-rotating section of the motor. I am confused as to what is rotating in/on this motor lol. Note wires entering outside of motor giving the impression the outer cage is fixed, so I ordered the dang thing: Are the 3 speed taps for the pull switch and the light switch coming out of the hole in the shaft ? Perhaps there is a rotary contact inside the motor... grrrr confused Note the wires entering the outer cage of motor in above photo, relate to the ccw wiring:
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Nov 25, 2019 2:33:24 GMT -5
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Post by knave on Nov 25, 2019 4:56:25 GMT -5
The motor you ordered has the rotor in the middle. The disassembled ceiling fans in some other pictures in this thread show the inside-out style. The 39 in the model number denotes a standard size 48 frame motor, with 1/2” shaft. Unfortunately the 5kcp39xx is a very common part number with rpm and hp all over the map. I’m unable to pull up the exact specs on it.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Nov 25, 2019 7:51:55 GMT -5
The motor you ordered has the rotor in the middle. The disassembled ceiling fans in some other pictures in this thread show the inside-out style. The 39 in the model number denotes a standard size 48 frame motor, with 1/2” shaft. Unfortunately the 5kcp39xx is a very common part number with rpm and hp all over the map. I’m unable to pull up the exact specs on it. General Electric 5kcp39xx #'s are a dime a dozen. I tried to find a price on it to get an idea of it's value/quality. This company often sells high grade expensive motors cheap. Especially special design motors. This particular motor does not seem to be a typical residential ceiling fan configuration. If it is anything like the 1/12 hp 840 rpm motor used in the A/C industry it should be a powerful well built unit. High end Emerson K55 motor costs $176. Looks similar in size/design but looks to have rotor on outside: carrollparts.com/product/762508-motor-k55xl/
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Post by 1dave on Nov 25, 2019 8:03:54 GMT -5
Page 4 Page 45 - could be converted into "Tumbler Speed Laws." What are the Goldilocks Speed Zones for tumbling?
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