gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Jan 3, 2020 21:32:05 GMT -5
I have never used a slurry thickener. My rotary does a good job of making slurry. My vib takes a little more watching to make sure the slurry has a good consistency but again takes no additional thickener. I do use ceramic media in all steps and I think this helps to break down the agates, etc.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 4, 2020 7:22:09 GMT -5
Clay is the standard thickener. If you cannot find it in the ground, you can buy it at hobby stores for cheap. I have also used sandbox sand (sorry daughter Amy) or tossed in some old unwanted (degraded/broken) apatite, anthabol or fluorite crystals into the barrel and they turn to clay pretty darn quick. I would not use clay, sand or crystals in stage 3/4 rotary, in case they have something that scratches. I have wondered what cheap toothpaste would do, but have yet to try it. Might be good with polish. Clay is the way for Step 1. It makes a dense, slick, sticky, heavy slurry that will lift the larger dense silicon carbide particles to the upper half of the rocks where most of the grinding happens. Agate, quartz, pet wood weighs 2.7 grams per cubic centimeter. Silicon carbide much denser at 3.9 grams per cubic centimeter making it want to sink to the lower section of the barrel when running straight water. Good point, due to quartz sand particles clay is not a good slurry to use for steps 3/4 in vibe or rotary.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 4, 2020 7:54:27 GMT -5
If going organic newspaper has been ph balanced for human hands to handle. Old timers chose it. It makes a fine spit ball slurry about as quick as any organic. Saw dust can float and ball up initially and takes a long time to break down leaving unprotected time zones at start up.
Unlike clay organics reduce the density of slurry and making it less able to 'float' larger dense silicon carbide in step 1. Pre-wetted newspaper mash works great for step 3/4 in the rotary with tiny finishing abrasives if it doesn't turn sour.
For rotary tumbled rocks I prefer to use clay in step 1 with 70% barrel fill. Then switch to adding pea gravel/smalls to a gentle 80% barrel fill for steps 220-500-1000-polish in the rotary. No slurry additive. I don't want to trust a slurry additive during 220-500-1000-polish. To much chance of damaging rock surfaces in a rotary. The 220 is best step to add pea gravel/smalls since it will remove sharp edges. And there is little volume reduction after step 1. Smalls can be pretty, like chips of agate and jasper. Reuse them in 220-500-1000-polish and eventually they will be pretty little tumbles. If you like to spend money ceramics can be used.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 4, 2020 8:29:50 GMT -5
Last harp.
I am running about 9 pounds of glass in a 6 inch barrel at a conservative 30 rpm. Step 1 using silicon carbide 60 with clay set at milk shake.
7 day clean outs.
The 60 grit is broken down to very fine every 24 hours. Thank the clay. I add a half dose of SiC 60 daily for the 1st 4 days - why not if it is being consumed. The glass(or rocks) can use the fresh 60 grit daily. The remaining 3 days no SiC is added to let it break down to probably less than 1000, do the 7 day clean out, add fresh clay, water, SiC 60.
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Post by HankRocks on Jan 4, 2020 9:29:55 GMT -5
One of my old Rockhound friends said he used Cedar Chips, the kind for filling dog bedding, as a filler for tumbling batches of ultra-thin slabs of Agate, mostly Brazilian. Some of the Slabs were up to 4 inches across and probably around 1/16th of inch in thickness. I now have a good many of them and as soon as I have time to dig them out will post a picture of a few. There are some that broke but it was pretty amazing to see that these delicate pieces were tumble polished.
I need to ask him if he used the Chips in all of the stages or just polish.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 4, 2020 10:24:11 GMT -5
One of my old Rockhound friends said he used Cedar Chips, the kind for filling dog bedding, as a filler for tumbling batches of ultra-thin slabs of Agate, mostly Brazilian. Some of the Slabs were up to 4 inches across and probably around 1/16th of inch in thickness. I now have a good many of them and as soon as I have time to dig them out will post a picture of a few. There are some that broke but it was pretty amazing to see that these delicate pieces were tumble polished. I need to ask him if he used the Chips in all of the stages or just polish. Was he using a vibe or a rotary Henry ?
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Post by HankRocks on Jan 4, 2020 11:07:28 GMT -5
One of my old Rockhound friends said he used Cedar Chips, the kind for filling dog bedding, as a filler for tumbling batches of ultra-thin slabs of Agate, mostly Brazilian. Some of the Slabs were up to 4 inches across and probably around 1/16th of inch in thickness. I now have a good many of them and as soon as I have time to dig them out will post a picture of a few. There are some that broke but it was pretty amazing to see that these delicate pieces were tumble polished. I need to ask him if he used the Chips in all of the stages or just polish. Was he using a vibe or a rotary Henry ? I will call him today and get his whole process. Need to capture as much of his Lapidary knowledge as possible, his failing health.
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Post by RocksInNJ on Jan 4, 2020 13:07:04 GMT -5
Wow, what a wealth of information. Thank you all for the tips and advice. I love to experiment with different things and learn along the way. The reason I started this thread is because I ran out of 60/90 grit and have been saving up to order a bulk 50lb bag. It Was driving me nuts that the tumbler wasn’t rolling, so decided to throw in some softer rocks with some sugar, water and salt to prevent freezing, just for the hell of it and to see what would happen.
Well it was working quite well and the rocks were rounding up and smoothing up a bit and there was quite a bit of little tiny rock chips and stuff in the bottom. So my thought was that if I could thicken the slurry up some to help those bits travel better, that it may improve the grinding rate since I had no grit in there. Hence the flour and is the reason I had asked about it.
I added a little flour just to see what would happen and I did manage to get a little thicker of a slurry on the bottom of the barrel when I checked the rocks. I may add a little more to see what happens. This is just a goofing off, while I’m bored and don’t have the right supplies experiment, to see what’ll happen and to hopefully learn something for when I start rolling with grit and rocks that I actually do care about.
Lol, I even threw in some mica schist full of little garnets to see what would happen. Wound up they reduced in size and exposed a lot more and better looking red garnets, but the rocks themselves were still rough. I wound up pulling them out to save for a dry corn cob run in the vibe later to see how that’ll turn out, as I don’t think tumbling them any further, no matter what grit will actually produce any better results.
Just thought I should explain the reasoning behind this thread to begin with and really appreciate all the replies. Keep them coming, as I still have a lot to learn and tinker around with. Thanks again everyone.
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Post by greig on Jan 4, 2020 13:21:25 GMT -5
Wow, what a wealth of information. Thank you all for the tips and advice. I love to experiment with different things and learn along the way. The reason I started this thread is because I ran out of 60/90 grit and have been saving up to order a bulk 50lb bag. It Was driving me nuts that the tumbler wasn’t rolling, so decided to throw in some softer rocks with some sugar, water and salt to prevent freezing, just for the hell of it and to see what would happen. Well it was working quite well and the rocks were rounding up and smoothing up a bit and there was quite a bit of little tiny rock chips and stuff in the bottom. So my thought was that if I could thicken the slurry up some to help those bits travel better, that it may improve the grinding rate since I had no grit in there. Hence the flour and is the reason I had asked about it. I added a little flour just to see what would happen and I did manage to get a little thicker of a slurry on the bottom of the barrel when I checked the rocks. I may add a little more to see what happens. This is just a goofing off, while I’m bored and don’t have the right supplies experiment, to see what’ll happen and to hopefully learn something for when I start rolling with grit and rocks that I actually do care about. Lol, I even threw in some mica schist full of little garnets to see what would happen. Wound up they reduced in size and exposed a lot more and better looking red garnets, but the rocks themselves were still rough. I wound up pulling them out to save for a dry corn cob run in the vibe later to see how that’ll turn out, as I don’t think tumbling them any further, no matter what grit will actually produce any better results. Just thought I should explain the reasoning behind this thread to begin with and really appreciate all the replies. Keep them coming, as I still have a lot to learn and tinker around with. Thanks again everyone. FYI - I have found the mica schist comes off easier from the garnet if soaked for at least a week in water. It makes it swell. The best way I have found to remove it without too much damage to the garnet is stainless steel jewelry mix.
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Post by RocksInNJ on Jan 4, 2020 13:25:33 GMT -5
Wow, what a wealth of information. Thank you all for the tips and advice. I love to experiment with different things and learn along the way. The reason I started this thread is because I ran out of 60/90 grit and have been saving up to order a bulk 50lb bag. It Was driving me nuts that the tumbler wasn’t rolling, so decided to throw in some softer rocks with some sugar, water and salt to prevent freezing, just for the hell of it and to see what would happen. Well it was working quite well and the rocks were rounding up and smoothing up a bit and there was quite a bit of little tiny rock chips and stuff in the bottom. So my thought was that if I could thicken the slurry up some to help those bits travel better, that it may improve the grinding rate since I had no grit in there. Hence the flour and is the reason I had asked about it. I added a little flour just to see what would happen and I did manage to get a little thicker of a slurry on the bottom of the barrel when I checked the rocks. I may add a little more to see what happens. This is just a goofing off, while I’m bored and don’t have the right supplies experiment, to see what’ll happen and to hopefully learn something for when I start rolling with grit and rocks that I actually do care about. Lol, I even threw in some mica schist full of little garnets to see what would happen. Wound up they reduced in size and exposed a lot more and better looking red garnets, but the rocks themselves were still rough. I wound up pulling them out to save for a dry corn cob run in the vibe later to see how that’ll turn out, as I don’t think tumbling them any further, no matter what grit will actually produce any better results. Just thought I should explain the reasoning behind this thread to begin with and really appreciate all the replies. Keep them coming, as I still have a lot to learn and tinker around with. Thanks again everyone. FYI - I have found the mica schist comes off easier from the garnet if soaked for at least a week in water. It makes it swell. The best way I have found to remove it without too much damage to the garnet is stainless steel jewelry mix. Awesome, many thanks for the tip. I’ll have to try that with a few.
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Post by HankRocks on Jan 4, 2020 23:38:54 GMT -5
Was he using a vibe or a rotary Henry ? I will call him today and get his whole process. Need to capture as much of his Lapidary knowledge as possible, his failing health. Ok. The Cedar Chips were used in all 4 stages of tumbling the load of thin slabs. He said he pulled out any large cedar pieces. All the tumbling was done in a 40 pound Rotary tumbler. He had a Cold and I didn't want to keep him on the phone talking today. Here's 3 pics of the largest one. Still surprised that this were able to survive in a 40lb rotary. Pic_5 by Findrocks, on Flickr Pic_6 by Findrocks, on Flickr Pic_7 by Findrocks, on Flickr
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Post by RocksInNJ on Jan 4, 2020 23:47:42 GMT -5
Wow, that’s pretty amazing and even more amazing that it survived in a 40lb rotary. Man I have all kinds of wood chips for my smoker When I BBQ, but no cedar. Oak would probably work as well. Hmm, might have to experiment with different wood chips one day.
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Post by arghvark on Jan 7, 2020 13:01:15 GMT -5
+1 for clay in rotaries. If you don't have an easy outdoor source, folks who do ceramics sometimes have waste clay.
Using clay in my 6lb rotaries reduced 46/70 grit exhaustion time from 7-8 days using old slurry powder (probably not enough) to 5 days.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 7, 2020 14:08:35 GMT -5
+1 for clay in rotaries. If you don't have an easy outdoor source, folks who do ceramics sometimes have waste clay. Using clay in my 6lb rotaries reduced 46/70 grit exhaustion time from 7-8 days using old slurry powder (probably not enough) to 5 days. Interesting arghvark. Do you know what type of clay you have ? Clay is used for lifting targeted mining particles out of mining slurries. Bentonite, kaolin and other clays. The clay particles actually break down after repeated use and no suspend the target particles as well. The old clay is continually being refreshed or replaced to assist lifting the target particles for removal. This is exactly the same game happening in a rotary slurry except the target particles to be suspended are silicon carbide particles. Using fresh clay at each clean out during coarse grind is a good practice. No problem if you have a natural source and a yard or forest to dump it at. Colloidal clay is the cadillac of clay slurry suspensions which is nothing more than weathered felspar.
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Post by arghvark on Jan 7, 2020 14:21:06 GMT -5
+1 for clay in rotaries. If you don't have an easy outdoor source, folks who do ceramics sometimes have waste clay. Using clay in my 6lb rotaries reduced 46/70 grit exhaustion time from 7-8 days using old slurry powder (probably not enough) to 5 days. Interesting arghvark. Do you know what type of clay you have ? Clay is used for lifting targeted mining particles out of mining slurries. Bentonite, kaolin and other clays. The clay particles actually break down after repeated use and no suspend the target particles as well. The old clay is continually being refreshed or replaced to assist lifting the target particles for removal. This is exactly the same game happening in a rotary slurry except the target particles to be suspended are silicon carbide particles. Using fresh clay at each clean out during coarse grind is a good practice. No problem if you have a natural source and a yard or forest to dump it at. Colloidal clay is the cadillac of clay slurry suspensions which is nothing more than weathered felspar. I haven't the slightest idea of the composition. The lady I get it from labelled a bag "Laguna B-mix". It is a creamy beige color. This does seem to work slightly better than another which was a grey color, but everything she has given me so far has worked better than anything else I have tried. Plus, it's free (she says she has hundreds of pounds of it that she'll never use) and completely hassle-free! This is all collected and re-mixed leftovers from ceramics classes. Sorry I can't be more informative as to the actual composition.
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whyofquartz
spending too much on rocks
So, Africa is smaller than I expected...
Member since December 2019
Posts: 316
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Post by whyofquartz on Jan 7, 2020 18:36:04 GMT -5
hey RocksInNJ how is the "brine Tumbling" going? have you been looking in on it or just leaving it sit?
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Post by RocksInNJ on Jan 7, 2020 20:06:50 GMT -5
Been checking it every day except today. Some are still reducing in size, but not getting much smoother. I pulled some out for next stage. Some of the others seem to have stalled. I didn’t check today, because I was busy and my 50lbs of 46/70 should be here tomorrow. So I’ll check it tomorrow and add some grit and see how much of a difference there is.
One thing I can say for sure is.......DO NOT USE FLOUR as a thickener.
Lmao, I know most of you knew this already, but I always have to learn the hard way. After a few days of it being in there, I opened the barrels and omg the smell was horrendous and it was all stuck on the bottom with rocks glued into it. I wound up cleaning everything out and really well at that and then just added water and some salt to prevent freezing.
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Post by arghvark on Jan 7, 2020 20:45:56 GMT -5
+1 for clay in rotaries. If you don't have an easy outdoor source, folks who do ceramics sometimes have waste clay. Using clay in my 6lb rotaries reduced 46/70 grit exhaustion time from 7-8 days using old slurry powder (probably not enough) to 5 days. Yeah, I'm "that guy", replying to my own post. An additional benefit to using clay: It prevents obsidian "concrete" from setting up and sticking things together. Without clay, this happens literally within seconds of stopping a barrel and is a huge pain to clean out.
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duskygrouse
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2018
Posts: 17
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Post by duskygrouse on Jan 8, 2020 0:26:42 GMT -5
I’ve been experimenting with Metamucil (generic psyllium) in the Lot-o vib lately. I’m mostly shut down for the winter except for a few batches in the vibe. I got the idea of using Metamucil from posts on this site from member ingawh who posted her recipe that included Metamucil for incredible results. I decided to premix of a psyllium slurry by adding the psyllium teaspoon by teaspoon into a 3/4 full throw away water bottle until the mix is about as thick as applesauce. I then load the rocks into my Lot-o, then turn it on and slowly pour the psyllium slurry until the rocks look uniformity coated with a thin coating. (Maybe 5-10 tablespoons)I then add the grit and let it go. With all grits 120 to polish the slurry seems to uniformly carry the grit well. (I haven’t been using Borax since starting to experiment with the psyllium.) Observations: 1. In the 120 or 220 stage, I’ve noticed the slurry really helps prevent the mix from drying out. I add much less increments of water during this early stage. The rocks clean up a little easier during clean outs. This has been the best benefit for me because with my work, I sometimes can’t check the vibe more than once in 24 hrs. In the past many of my batches of coarse grit stages have completely stopped tumbling because of drying out 2. In the higher grits, the slurry distributes the grit nicely, but I’m not sure if it makes much difference overall, but I rarely ever have to add any water now to keep a good tumbling action 3. Nice orange smell. Environmentally safe. 4. I was thinking the slurry might provide a gentler action like jamesp ‘s thick sticky sugar mix that he has shared with his incredible polished glass results. I don’t know yet. I have observed that the psyllium seems to lubricate the tumble whereas jamesp described his that his sugar slurry slows the action. I doubt this is a game changer, but I’m having fun. Anybody else have experience with using psyllium, non organically I mean?
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2020 5:07:58 GMT -5
I have 3 different tumblers capable of running 6 inch barrels at speeds of 28,38,and 60 rpm for various applications. I screen cheap bulk silicon carbide to get 60-30-10 grit SiC for various coarse grind applications. For step 1: 28 rpm with 60 grit w/clay for delicate glass, slow gentle grind rate 38 rpm with 30 grit w/clay for chunkier glass, medium grind rate 60 rpm with 10 grit w/clay for fast removal of chunkier glass, fast grind rate 30 grit circulates better at the higher 38 rpm. 10 grit will not circulate well until the speed surpasses 50 rpm. All speeds for a 6 inch barrel, clay slurry protection about mandatory at 60 rpm to avoid bruises. arghvark mentioned obsidian concretions. If the 30 and 10 grit barrels are allowed to sit more than a minute after being run several days without clay the glass will concrete so badly that a total clean out is required. It is difficult to remove the concretion just like cleaning the belly of a tile saw out after sawing glass. Best way is with a pressure washer. No way I'm running glass without the clay. Short power outages have damaged my glass from bottom barrel concretions in watery slurries. Slurry needs to be heavy too, not just thick like a milk shake to prevent rock, glass and abrasive particles from sinking so fast. Organics are bad about making slurry lighter in weight. Think dense salt rich water in the Dead Sea.
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