reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Feb 25, 2020 14:54:38 GMT -5
Last night’s insomnia lead me to finding out about a location (Calvert Hill) about 2-2.5 hours away from me. The exact GPS coordinates I found require about 3 mi in hiking on top of that, which isn’t horrible at all, but I can’t tell if this is on actual trails or how far away from a trail or park it is. I checked the current national forest website and BELIEVE based one hat I’ve read that I can in theory collect two “short tons” each year (assuming surficial rock is considered “landscape rock”) and will get the permit to do so before I go.
Obviously I plan on looking around while there regarding any land access (and double checking prior to the trip), but other than making sure I CAN collect in the area, I wanted advice in general as I haven’t done any “off trail” type hiking, especially not alone.
- Do any of you use GPS apps or handheld devices? I know I should have some form and wanted opinions, recommendations, etc (and yes, bring a map and compass for emergencies). - How long in general do you search at each site? Obviously sites vary but in general how long should one expect to spend actually hunting? I’m trying to decide if I should do an overnight camp (not a huge fan) or just go one day. - How do you transport your finds? 5 gallon bucket? Or in a backpack? How do you accommodate when you have over an hour to hike too? (I worry about carrying a bucket for that long as I have a hand “injury.” - When you encounter snow, do you keep going? I’m not fond of snow and don’t intend on going before the Spring, but Montana sometimes has snow into May 😂 How much snow is typically “too much” for rockhounding? - Finally, even if I bring emergency equipment, should I try to force Husband into going with me for safety? (Actual quote from him: “Nothing sounds more miserable than walking around for rocks.”)
Thank you! (Sorry if this isn’t the right place to ask)
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Post by joshuamcduffie on Feb 25, 2020 15:25:24 GMT -5
Good place to ask, not wrong. I'll defer to some of the westerners who have hunted on Forest Service land out there, but definitely check with them regarding the requirements to collect. Back East, as far as I know, you can't use mechanical devices, to include shovels, anymore when collecting. What are you hunting for, exactly? What tools will you want to pack in? Rock hammers? Chisels? Sledge hammers? Shovel? Pickaxe? Trowel? Brushes? I tend to always overpack, but better to have it in the car then to leave something at home, even if I don't take it all the way to the site.
3 miles will take you a good hour and a half, probably, and it would be a very long way to carry a 5 gallon bucket full of samples. That bucket could easily be 50 lbs. or more. You'll want a backpack or some kind of cart, depending on the terrain. A pack mule wouldn't be unreasonable for what you are describing. So you are easily talking 4-5 hours each way from home. If you are digging, and not just picking up surface material, that's hard work. You will be VERY tired when you get back to the car to drive home. And sore. I'd say camp or find a hotel near the site.
Pack a lunch, and plenty of water. Don't go in the snow, you won't be able to find your specimens if they are under a blanket of white stuff.
DEFINITELY do NOT go alone. Try to find an experienced rockhound whom you trust and who has experience at the site, bring a friend, or bring your husband along. Look on the internet and see if there are any local guides who can take you. If you are serious about going and having a successful dig, you should try to join and go with a local rock club. I've done a few solo digs (near the vehicle, along public roads or in pay to dig sites) and always wished I had someone with more experience along to show me the ropes. Plus the camaraderie just makes it more fun. They can also help out with the driving, and the gas money.
Off trail hiking can be very slow going. Bring a map and compass. Let someone know your plan, and exactly where you plan to prospect, park your car, etc. Have a plan for them to call the local authorities if you fail to check in at the expected time.
Bring extra water to drink & a spray bottle to wash rocks. A change of clothes and shoes to drive home in. Wet wipes to clean up with at the car. A first aid kit, phone, extra battery pack, sunscreen, some rags, newspapers to wrap samples in, TP, etc. I'm sure I've forgotten a dozen things.
Put in the planning time, think the trip through, and have a good experience rather than a bad or dangerous one.
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Feb 25, 2020 15:30:30 GMT -5
You forgot bear spray and a gun, Josh
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Post by joshuamcduffie on Feb 25, 2020 15:34:58 GMT -5
You forgot bear spray and a gun, Josh Ha, I thought a firearm went without saying! j/k not being from out West, it did not occur to me. Our Black bears are much less dangerous than Brown ones.
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Benathema
has rocks in the head
God chased me down and made sure I knew He was real June 20, 2022. I've been on a Divine Mission.
Member since November 2019
Posts: 703
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Post by Benathema on Feb 25, 2020 15:50:56 GMT -5
I often go out by myself, people think I'm crazy... Probably right. Been a woodsy person my whole life
Keep tabs on your surroundings. Partly for orientation of landmark hills wrt your location. Other part to make sure big kitty isn't stalking you. Spray and/or sidearm not a bad idea. Having manual compass and standalone gps app on phone is a good idea. You have to download maps before you go if you want gps coords on a map, don't count on cell service to get you out if your get lost.
Hiking bag with first aid kit, paracoord, ways to start a fire, emergency poncho. Always bring the extra sweater, can attach it to the bag. Gloves, hat, good flashlights, spare good batteries, battery backup for phone is good. Always extra water.
Get out well before dark, don't screw with that unless you know the area very well. $#!? Happens. So definitely worth some forethought before straying away from civilization.
I think Josh echoed a bit more good advice than I have, but yeah.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Feb 25, 2020 15:58:47 GMT -5
You forgot bear spray and a gun, Josh Ha, I thought a firearm went without saying! j/k not being from out West, it did not occur to me. Our Black bears are much less dangerous than Brown ones.
Out west, you mostly have to worry about the two-legged (human) critters.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Feb 25, 2020 17:32:54 GMT -5
You forgot bear spray and a gun, Josh Ha, I thought a firearm went without saying! j/k not being from out West, it did not occur to me. Our Black bears are much less dangerous than Brown ones.
Open carry handguns without a permit (check individual State and Federal land requirements anyway) are currently legal in Montana.......one of the most liberal firearms States in the country. The further South and West you travel, the "hand gun carry" laws change a little to dramatically..........packers beware.....!
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Feb 25, 2020 18:58:29 GMT -5
Ha, I thought a firearm went without saying! j/k not being from out West, it did not occur to me. Our Black bears are much less dangerous than Brown ones.
Out west, you mostly have to worry about the two-legged (human) critters. I carry a 9 3/8" barrel 357 magnum that can split the skull of a large grizzly male at a good distance. That's the only reason I carry it. The small furless humans pose no threat so I carry a small 3" knife for them, if they want to be hostile.
In some places I would rather not specify because this isn't the cave, there can be some really creepy residences and people, however, and I will carry the big gun there.
I should probably just carry it anywhere that isn't a city or town.
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Post by knave on Feb 25, 2020 19:33:04 GMT -5
And in the east you would pack heat for the towns lol
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Feb 25, 2020 19:43:13 GMT -5
And in the east you would pack heat for the towns lol Likely concealed there. Not looking to get into a gunfight with something/someone that also has a gun and has had his full share of drugs
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Post by greig on Feb 25, 2020 20:14:12 GMT -5
Good luck on your adventure. Some of your questions are pretty basic, but I will tell you what I do when exploring solo (although usually I have my dog).
I try to always carry on my person (preferably zipped into a pocket), my keys, a knife, mini flashlight, lighter & compass. I don't have these in my pack, or outer jacket...that I might put down and not find. Unless hurt, I can always start a fire, walk in a straight line, etc. A GPS is nice as long as you have batteries, a view to the heavens and know how to use it. An iPhone has a GPS and there are apps which work out of cell distance. Remember that batteries can be weak when cold. I wouldn't walk more than a half mile with a bucket, and even then would prefer a backpack. Buckets are great for a short distance. I very seldom take a gun. If I lived in the US and was allowed a pistol, I might have a different opinion. Long hikes require decent footwear and think about if you have to cross wet spots. I always limit the amount of rockhounding gear on my first visit to a site. Usually just a rock hammer, glasses, chisel and digging tool unless I know of something special about the spot and would consider a gold pan, classifier, metal detector, UV lamp, big flashlight, crow bar, etc. Otherwise, those things stay in the truck. I can always go back for them. Some paper towel in a sealed sandwich bag can be pretty useful as TP. Take your husband and if he complains too much, you can always leave him there.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Feb 25, 2020 20:16:14 GMT -5
Out west, you mostly have to worry about the two-legged (human) critters. I carry a 9 3/8" barrel 357 magnum that can split the skull of a large grizzly male at a good distance. That's the only reason I carry it. The small furless humans pose no threat so I carry a small 3" knife for them, if they want to be hostile. In some places I would rather not specify because this isn't the cave, there can be some really creepy residences and people, however, and I will carry the big gun there. I should probably just carry it anywhere that isn't a city or town.
We don't need that type of protection for bears. Near home, biggest concerns are aggressive coyotes, and in some places, mountain lions. My DH always brings his pistola when we go camping. He doesn't carry, but it is always with us in the trailer when we are sleeping. A few years back, we went out to Painted Gorge for a day trip. It is located east of the town of Ocotillo, which is an hour east of San Diego, just after you drop down off the mountain to the desert floor on I-8. We parked the truck in a somewhat remote area (no people around), locked it and went hiking. We did our thing, picked up rocks, took pictures, etc. Although we may be some distance away on our hike, if I can see the truck, I like to take a zoomed out photo of it. When we got home, and I looked at the photos of my computer screen, I could see several people standing around my truck! Now this is in an area heavily frequented by aliens of the illegal kind. When I am home, I am less than ten miles from the border. Painted Gorge is probably a few miles more than that.
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reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Feb 25, 2020 20:39:58 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for being so helpful!! EricD Montana isn't exactly known for being drug-free either Actually, I'm kind of nervous going to Wise River and the Butte area. I've been in MT for 8.5 years and have only been to three cities: where I live, where I stop on my way to my parents' (they live in WA), and one small town to get bread once. Have you ever been to that particular part of MT? Benathema I'm far from a woodsy person, but can definitely navigate fine with manual tools. It was one of those "life skills" multiple people thought were important to teach me. Came in handy during an ecology course in college (we did field studies, one of mine was about trees, so that was cool). joshuamcduffie I'm not worried about the 1-1.5+ hours hiking. I'm not the most physically fit person (RIP college body) but have hiked trails entirely uphill at what I believe are classified as moderate incline that are 3+ miles, then hiked back down. Not sure if we'll be hiking uphill most of the way for this site and should really look at a topo map. But when it comes to exhaustion... Husband and I are used to do long drives. We got married in WA and routinely drove there pre-wedding. I've done day trips 300 miles away from me before! And he won't be interested in the rocks/won't be digging. Will probably be chilling out and playing with our pup. Obviously before I go I would map it out, see if there are any trails, maybe even stick by trails even if it takes longer to get there. But yes 100% agree that if a 5 gallon bucket fits 50# rocks I will NOT be carrying that for 3mi. Won't even for 1/4 mi. Sometimes I forget how dense rocks are (I do a lot of baking... flour weighs a lot less per cup lol). I'm really hoping to get no more than 5#-10# total truthfully. I read that SOMETIMES you can get aquamarine in the calcite that forms there... you find them with a sledge hammer... this sounds like great fun to me! Probably won't take all the calcite I smash. Whatever aquamarine and garnet I'm able to find, then some calcite, scheelite, and epidote. Crystal Park is nearby, too, so I'm wondering if we should take a long weekend and do both. He agreed to go to Crystal Park with me when I asked last year. Always love amethyst. Re: firearms, wildlife: we have two guns, a handgun and a shot gun. Both presents from my dad (who doesn't ACTUALLY hunt but loves guns and presses his own bullets). I believe I've only shot the handgun before at my parents'. I do not enjoy it. Husband does. Should probably practice/go to a range/at least bring it to my parents' for a weekend. Re: GPS, navigation: Regardless of what type of GPS I ultimately get, I think I need something that can be tracked by Husband. And ideally something I can send emergency messages through. I think in general if I'm going to do more off-trail and low-cell-service adventures this would be handy to have. I don't think we have any cool rockhounding on the trails where I live but I might end up going to some places by myself and I know Husband would want to track... and my parents/mom would want to track me + Husband too. Also would be cool to have for when we go on our honeymoon and into cenotes. Would love to see those maps!
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Post by joshuamcduffie on Feb 25, 2020 20:53:06 GMT -5
GPS is not going to work in a cenote.
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reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Feb 25, 2020 20:54:46 GMT -5
Good luck on your adventure. Some of your questions are pretty basic, but I will tell you what I do when exploring solo (although usually I have my dog). I try to always carry on my person (preferably zipped into a pocket), my keys, a knife, mini flashlight, lighter & compass. I don't have these in my pack, or outer jacket...that I might put down and not find. Unless hurt, I can always start a fire, walk in a straight line, etc. A GPS is nice as long as you have batteries, a view to the heavens and know how to use it. An iPhone has a GPS and there are apps which work out of cell distance. Remember that batteries can be weak when cold. I wouldn't walk more than a half mile with a bucket, and even then would prefer a backpack. Buckets are great for a short distance. I very seldom take a gun. If I lived in the US and was allowed a pistol, I might have a different opinion. Long hikes require decent footwear and think about if you have to cross wet spots. I always limit the amount of rockhounding gear on my first visit to a site. Usually just a rock hammer, glasses, chisel and digging tool unless I know of something special about the spot and would consider a gold pan, classifier, metal detector, UV lamp, big flashlight, crow bar, etc. Otherwise, those things stay in the truck. I can always go back for them. Some paper towel in a sealed sandwich bag can be pretty useful as TP. Take your husband and if he complains too much, you can always leave him there. HA! I took him on a hike up the mountain near us (3.1mi uphill, moderate incline). He complained halfway up. But he did it juuuuust fine when his best friend insisted they go this Thanksgiving. Last summer, I took him on a 3mi walk to our dog's favorite park. He said he would never go again. Someday I might have friends, but until then he better learn to suck it up. Our dog is wonderful and very energetic... but at 20 lbs he won't be much protection! Ha. I've done a fair bit of research into this location and what I might fine. Basic stuff should be fine but I'll probably throw in the UV lamp because I love fluorescence. Mostly what's new to me is the off trail and rock-searching part of it. Hiking and general emergency preparedness I'm good with... but I tend to want "the best" and over-plan everything, so not knowing how long to "budget" at the site or what GPS device to use gets to me. I can tell you ALL about how batteries function (or don't) in the cold. Perks of being two classes shy of a chem major I really don't want to rely on my phone for this as my battery is not great. I can always bring battery packs but to me it just feels too unstable. I'm hoping to get out there when the weather is ~60F.
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reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Feb 25, 2020 20:55:29 GMT -5
GPS is not going to work in a cenote. are the rocks/earth above just too dense? If so, disappointing. (still excited for cenotes though)
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Benathema
has rocks in the head
God chased me down and made sure I knew He was real June 20, 2022. I've been on a Divine Mission.
Member since November 2019
Posts: 703
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Post by Benathema on Feb 25, 2020 21:15:36 GMT -5
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reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Feb 25, 2020 21:29:37 GMT -5
are the rocks/earth above just too dense? If so, disappointing. (still excited for cenotes though) You need line of sight on at least 4 satellites for it to work. So the answer is yes? My understanding of GPS is that they use long-wave EMR. Longer waves = more easily penetrating. But my understanding stops there. I don't know the exact wavelengths or frequencies... and I don't know if they differ that much from cell phones or TVs or radio. They probably don't differ that much and what does differ is the range of the signal. Up on mountains you won't get any cell towers transmitting signal, but satellites will triangulate you as their signal is strong with no obstruction. My next question would be, if you get GPS at the surface, what wavelength is the highest possible needed to reliably penetrate rocks? Also, what is the maximum density at a certain depth? Or the maximum depth with a certain density? Is it density that matters (kind of assuming as that related to "open space" for waves to pass through? maybe? this is just me thinking)? I mean I'm thinking about water applications and how submarines use very low frequencies and that through WATER which is already a good conductor and only standardly dense... but I don't know who far down they penetrate. Note to self: rocks are very dense. VERY dense. 100 feet of rock =\= 100 feet of saltwater.
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Benathema
has rocks in the head
God chased me down and made sure I knew He was real June 20, 2022. I've been on a Divine Mission.
Member since November 2019
Posts: 703
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Post by Benathema on Feb 25, 2020 21:56:41 GMT -5
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11990140Brief glance at the abstract says that in snow your GPS is only good buried to about 1 meter, below 1.5 meter it's done. So water, snow, rock, whatever... obstructions kill it.
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reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Feb 25, 2020 22:00:04 GMT -5
Benathema what do you like/dislike about the app? What are the more useful features? What features do you hardly use?
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