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Post by HankRocks on Jun 26, 2020 14:07:27 GMT -5
so to clarify, I'm in the camp of using borax in the lot o as that's what I read and assumed was the consensus. I also normally tumble local collected river gravel and move many a stones on from coarse stage with minor imperfections. I always assumed any white left in flaws was polish and not borax. this was due to being able to clean out any residue from flaws pretty consistently until they came out of polish. so figured the grit size of polish starting at 14k micron before broken down would obviously result in much smaller grit size when run is completed. and that's what allowed the residue to get into the smallest of flaws and unable to be removed w normal cleaning like prior stages. I've also tumble polished around 150 cabochons I mad ewith dremel and never have any issues with residue, but also take great care to remove every single flaw prior to tumbling in lot o. Borax is super finicky w moisture levels in my experience. too little and all gets gummed up at bottom and cpl drops too much water and doesnt stick to rocks and media and gets gummed up in bottom. all that said I am very interested in trying sugar in the lot o. can anyone share their recipe for using sugar in lot o single ? I add 3T sugar to a filled and then drained lot-o barrel along with 1/2t of polish. I weigh my barrels and keep it about 4.5-5lbs. I let it run for 3 days, but it's usually ready in 2 days.
My stone loads are usually 50-60% ceramic media mixed with small pebbles about the same size as the ceramic, and the rocks that need polishing.
My cab loads are about 8-11 cabs and the rest the same ceramic and pebbles. I don't use sugar when polishing such a small amount of cabs, but if the load was 40-50% cabs I would.
I like to run 1T sugar in 220 grit and 2T in AO-500 also, for ease of cleaning and as a slurry thickener
I am in the borax corner, but only as an enhancer for my Ivory Soap runs after Polish and between the last SiC run and the pre-polish AlO runs. I was using it in Polish runs but I have switched to just adding more polish. The UV-18 has a polish run of about 140 pendants, 4 large slabs and 4 or 5 pounds of polished pea gravel. I added about 14 to 16 tablespoons of Tin Oxide to the run for the purpose of polishing and as a slurry. They are at 24 hours and the polish is looking good. Will probably take them out Sunday afternoon/Monday morning(I don't run at night). My only reservation about using Sugar anywhere in the process is the amount of 6 legged critters we have here in the Houston area which includes our national bird here, the tree-roach.
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victor1941
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2011
Posts: 1,959
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Post by victor1941 on Jun 26, 2020 14:33:27 GMT -5
Djsparkles, I run a UV-18 and use borax for all stages. My tumbles consist mostly of preformed cabs of wood or agate and are moved from stage to stage with 2-3 tablespoons of borax added to each cycle. I don't know what effect(s) may occur with borax but I used it as some suggested when I first started tumbling and was pleased with the results of the method. I have no idea if surface tension, adhesion or cohesion, slurry or suspension are affected when media, rock, abrasive, polish and water are vibrated in different tumbling machines. My tumble load consists of 50% media and 50% material and media is added as the volume decreased to keep the tumbler full. Hope this helps.
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Benathema
has rocks in the head
God chased me down and made sure I knew He was real June 20, 2022. I've been on a Divine Mission.
Member since November 2019
Posts: 703
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Borax
Jun 26, 2020 16:01:48 GMT -5
via mobile
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Post by Benathema on Jun 26, 2020 16:01:48 GMT -5
So I'm in the sugar crowd for prepolish and polish in the rotary. Plastics and ceramics weren't providing enough cushioning and chipping and bruising were an issue. A thick sugar solution helped with that a lot. Only downside I'm seeing is in my small barrels they have to run 2 weeks in polish. That may be from decreased action/forces between the stones.
I do use clay (kitty litter) to jumpstart the coarse stage.
I guess my question is if clay is still considered abrasive once you hit the polish stage? I mean, more time is spent on coarse and once in a blue moon I can run a batch through finishing, so sugar usage is only once in a while. But it takes a lot in these 12lb barrels (1+ lbs) to make it nearly Karo thick, and I'm down for potentially cheaper alternatives.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jun 26, 2020 16:16:21 GMT -5
So I'm in the sugar crowd for prepolish and polish in the rotary. Plastics and ceramics weren't providing enough cushioning and chipping and bruising were an issue. A thick sugar solution helped with that a lot. Only downside I'm seeing is in my small barrels they have to run 2 weeks in polish. That may be from decreased action/forces between the stones. I do use clay (kitty litter) to jumpstart the coarse stage. I guess my question is if clay is still considered abrasive once you hit the polish stage? I mean, more time is spent on coarse and once in a blue moon I can run a batch through finishing, so sugar usage is only once in a while. But it takes a lot in these 12lb barrels (1+ lbs) to make it nearly Karo thick, and I'm down for potentially cheaper alternatives. I use clay from the back yard that is mixed with silica sand. I prefer to switch to sugar for pre-polish and polish. (Some) pure sifted clay might be doable in polish steps but it costs a good bit so I use sugar.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jun 26, 2020 16:21:15 GMT -5
"I always assumed any white left in flaws was polish and not borax. this was due to being able to clean out any residue from flaws pretty consistently until they came out of polish." oldschoolrocker I don't know the answer but i do know sugar dissolves well and releases most trapped white polish when hydrated with hot water. Where as Borax does not if the load runs dry in the vibe.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jun 26, 2020 16:39:11 GMT -5
Sure seems like the polish would be way more diluted with syrupy liquid when running 8 to 16 tablespoon of sugar with 2 tablespoons of polish for 8 pounds of rock in a vibe. As opposed to the smaller dose of Borax mixed with polish.
I just looked this up:
"Borax is very soluble in ethylene glycol, moderately soluble in diethylene glycol and methanol, slightly soluble in acetone. It is poorly soluble in cold water, but its solubility increases significantly with temperature."
On the other hand sugar is very soluble in water. Meaning impactions involving polish can be readily weakened by the dissolving of the sugar.
IMO, many use too much polish which accentuates problem. I use 1 tablespoon for 8 pounds rock in vibe.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jun 26, 2020 16:43:41 GMT -5
After glancing at some of the previous answers I am not about to get into the argument of what is the "better" way. I will add that every tumbled rock I have every posted here over the last 8 years has been tumbled with borax in every stage after 120/220. I started that way from day one with the lot-o and the results and ease of clean outs have never given me a reason to change.
Chuck
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Post by knave on Jun 26, 2020 17:18:33 GMT -5
Chuck I was hoping you would weigh in. I went back and forth between the two. I get good results either way.
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Post by arghvark on Jun 26, 2020 17:37:02 GMT -5
I just gradually dump in a quarter cup of sugar with each stage in the Lot-o. That was the first thing I tried, and was thrilled with the result. I check after 15 minutes or so, sometimes a couple-few shots with the spray bottle are needed to get the movement speed up a bit. Once this is accomplished, adding water is rarely needed.
I like simple, and as a former process engineer I guess I tend to favor processes which have a large process window (forgiving of variation in amounts and/or ratios, times, monitoring, etc.)
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jun 26, 2020 17:41:33 GMT -5
Chuck I was hoping you would weigh in. I went back and forth between the two. I get good results either way. I really try hard to stay out of these debates. If I wanted to debate people on rock tumbling methods I would hang out on the RTH Facebook page. Chuck
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Post by knave on Jun 26, 2020 18:05:18 GMT -5
Chuck your work speaks for itself. I’m a fan.
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Post by HankRocks on Jun 26, 2020 18:10:07 GMT -5
Chuck I was hoping you would weigh in. I went back and forth between the two. I get good results either way. I really try hard to stay out of these debates. If I wanted to debate people on rock tumbling methods I would hang out on the RTH Facebook page. Chuck " There are many paths to the Truth" Truth being well polished rocks. It's what makes tumbling fun, there are very few absolute wrong way to do things. Bet we could count 20 to 30 different work processes out here, maybe more. All of them produce well polished rocks. I have 3 or 4 ways I do things depending on what I am tumbling. Henry
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jun 26, 2020 18:51:13 GMT -5
I really try hard to stay out of these debates. If I wanted to debate people on rock tumbling methods I would hang out on the RTH Facebook page. Chuck " There are many paths to the Truth" Truth being well polished rocks. It's what makes tumbling fun, there are very few absolute wrong way to do things. Bet we could count 20 to 30 different work processes out here, maybe more. All of them produce well polished rocks. I have 3 or 4 ways I do things depending on what I am tumbling. Henry I agree 100%. That is where asking some questions in a public forum creates more questions then answers though. Kind of like saying I have a 1/2" bolt to remove so what kind of wrench should I use. You will always get that one guy that says household pliers are the best way. I have all but stopped giving advice on the public level. I can take the time to try an answer a question only to have the next 5 or 6 replies contradict my advice. Even if all 6 ways work I end up feeling like I wasted my time. I will probably bow out of answering generic questions but will always answer all questions asked in my threads about the way I tumble rocks. Chuck
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jun 26, 2020 18:55:19 GMT -5
I really try hard to stay out of these debates. If I wanted to debate people on rock tumbling methods I would hang out on the RTH Facebook page. Chuck " There are many paths to the Truth" Truth being well polished rocks. It's what makes tumbling fun, there are very few absolute wrong way to do things. Bet we could count 20 to 30 different work processes out here, maybe more. All of them produce well polished rocks. I have 3 or 4 ways I do things depending on what I am tumbling. Henry Great post Henry. I agree with the entire thing except that "there are very few absolute wrong way to do things". Having worked in the mechanical field for 22 years, I have seen so many ways to do something wrong it makes ones head spin. I would assume there are other occupations where there would be millions, billions of ways to screw something up, depending on the range of complexity.
With tumbling, I would agree with what you wrote "I have 3 or 4 ways I do things depending on what I am tumbling." There are many variables, and sometimes it would take years to come upon a similar challenge that someone else is facing with their rocks right now.
The Truth in tumbling can be obtained in multiple ways, with a multitude of methods. I do not discount a single one
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jun 26, 2020 18:59:06 GMT -5
" There are many paths to the Truth" Truth being well polished rocks. It's what makes tumbling fun, there are very few absolute wrong way to do things. Bet we could count 20 to 30 different work processes out here, maybe more. All of them produce well polished rocks. I have 3 or 4 ways I do things depending on what I am tumbling. Henry I agree 100%. That is where asking some questions in a public forum creates more questions then answers though. Kind of like saying I have a 1/2" bolt to remove so what kind of wrench should I use. You will always get that one guy that says household pliers are the best way. I have all but stopped giving advice on the public level. I can take the time to try an answer a question only to have the next 5 or 6 replies contradict my advice. Even if all 6 ways work I end up feeling like I wasted my time. I will probably bow out of answering generic questions but will always answer all questions asked in my threads about the way I tumble rocks. Chuck This is the most sane approach there is to topics such as this one. Might have to follow your lead and spend more time working and less time trying to help. Not that you have never helped!
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
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Post by pizzano on Jun 26, 2020 19:36:36 GMT -5
Awesome discussion.......great variety of methods and experiences........djsparkles got more than he probably bargained for, but it's just proof this forum provides very knowledgeable insight from some very experienced rock tumbling enthusiast.......in a very civil and respectful environment.......!
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Jun 27, 2020 4:39:52 GMT -5
I just gradually dump in a quarter cup of sugar with each stage in the Lot-o. That was the first thing I tried, and was thrilled with the result. I check after 15 minutes or so, sometimes a couple-few shots with the spray bottle are needed to get the movement speed up a bit. Once this is accomplished, adding water is rarely needed. I like simple, and as a former process engineer I guess I tend to favor processes which have a large process window (forgiving of variation in amounts and/or ratios, times, monitoring, etc.) I want to stay out of any conflict. That gets no one no where. Findings from experimentation, research and consultation from people experienced in lapidary processes should be certainly be acceptable discussion. If such statements ruffle feathers then so be it. It should be assumed that there is always a best way. Very possibly a best way for certain pieces of lapidary equipment and/or for individuals. I must agree with arghvark's findings and method regarding the use of substantial sugar additions in the vibe for this reason: "I like simple, and as a former process engineer I guess I tend to favor processes which have a large process window (forgiving of variation in amounts and/or ratios, times, monitoring, etc.)" I have never found Borax to be comforting to use because of it's low water usage and ability to form an insoluble concretion in rock cavities should it dry out if not spritzed with a spray bottle regularly. When using sugar water is added at a rate of 1 to 2 inches of level from a 16 oz. water bottle every 1 to 2 days. And if one manages to dry a load the sugar readily dissolves and in about all cases allows the white polish to be removed from pits without mechanical means. Just soak in hot water. I can say why I in particular why I went to sugar. My Vibrasonic vibe has an enclosed 1/3hp 3450 rpm motor not 3 inches below the hopper that generates a great deal of heat. This heat is transferred to the batch of rocks above the motor. On a summer day the rocks and sugar slurry will physically burn your hand if hand is plummeted into the batch of rocks. For this reason the Vibrasonic can be run in 18F temperatures. Hot sugar slurry is quick to transfer heat to flesh lol. I have to let the batch cool or use rubber gloves before handling the stones. Borax and it's low water dilution use was not going to fly with the high temps and ensuing evaporation rate. I do get substantially quicker polish times in colder weather when the sugar slurry stays cooler and thicker. Please do not take me as being argumentative. I just want to say that I have many years experience with both sugar and Borax being used in the vibe and feel obligated to share my findings.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jun 27, 2020 10:44:10 GMT -5
I use Borax in the last two (Pre-Polish and Polish) stages of the Vibratory tumbler only. You have some really good advice from some very knowledgeable RTH Pro's in the posts above!
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braat
spending too much on rocks
Member since December 2016
Posts: 350
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Post by braat on Jun 27, 2020 13:22:09 GMT -5
I switched from Borax to sugar a couple years back (for vibe stages 2-4)...didn't really see a difference in output quality or quantity but easier to dispose old slurry without concern for nature and less babysitting to maintain rolling action/consistency... sugar is cheaper than Borax as well even though I use way more sugar...
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Post by arghvark on Jun 28, 2020 9:26:33 GMT -5
Folks, I did want to make one (rather longwinded) comment.
From my own personal perspective, I share what I've experienced. People can try it, modify it, use it, or dismiss it as complete hooey. Matters not a whit to me.
I certainly hope I haven't contributed to "arguments" or "disputes". There is nothing here to get emotional about. We're tumbling rocks for cryin' out loud. Getting mad about something like this would be really, really juvenile and silly.
I've benefitted enormously from the expertise in this group, and have been thrilled when trying things I never would have considered.
My first year as a process engineer, extremely inexperienced, I tried something really, really unconventional which sorta flew in the face of accepted best practices. The results were surprisingly good. The technical guru I was working with said to me "the advantage you have is that you don't know what isn't possible."
It's sorta like meatloaf. There are almost as many recipes as there are families who make it. And most of 'em are good.
Keep 'em rollin', and have fun.
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