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Post by Bob on Aug 12, 2020 14:05:06 GMT -5
I typically do a final burnish run with Ivory soap after polish. It does improve the shine on I would say 90% at least of the rocks. I used to do 2-3 days, but when I tried just 3 hrs or so could not tell the difference so do the 3 hrs or so now.
For filler/cushioning I use the black plastic pellets from KN. I've been using these pellets for several years in polish, burnish, and SC grits going all the way as large as 220 at times. I think the physics of what happens with these pellets inside the tumbler are probably strange and hard to understand. When you pour them into the barrel, it's obvious they weigh next to nothing as they bounce around all over the place. I have tried them in larger grits such as 80 or larger, when I was wanting to cushion some particularly valuable or sensitive rough, but I found the pellets just cause nothing to happen--a week later the grit it still there and hardly any grinding has taken place. On 220 or finer though, they still work ok.
This got me to wondering...I have a large amount of small polished rocks about the size of my small fingernail. These accumulate over the years and are beautiful in and of themselves in a large bowl. What about using these instead of the pellets? I visualized them slipping and sliding all over the larger rocks and not bouncing away from the larger rocks like the lightweight pellets might. Could they make things better?
Last night, I had a new batch of rocks finish polish in a 6lb barrel. They looked good, but I knew a bit of extra shine might happen in burnish. So this time, I used those smalls instead of the pellets. I use a full bar of Ivory in a 12lb barrel, so I used 1/2 bar in this barrel. It's a lot of soap, but an experienced tumbler of 45 years recommended going too much rather than too little on burnish using soap. He found a full bar in a 12lb barrel did fine for many years.
Wow, I checked only 1 hr later and was blown away by the wet shine! It was perhaps the most perfect shine polish I've ever achieved. Of course, those smalls could be used over and over and over, because nothing is being taken away from them.
I then did it 9 more hours overnight just to see if the shine improved. Nope, it didn't seem to me that it had.
Has anyone else ever tried this or have thoughts on this? I've started to wonder about using these polished smalls instead of pellets in the polish stage too to see what happens. The small are probably at least 75% misc. jaspers and agates, but there is also misc. feldspar, rhodonite, crystal quartz, and what not. I think all had been filtered through a 1/2" mesh sieve. -Bob
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Aug 12, 2020 14:11:34 GMT -5
I found my polish was a lot better and much faster using polished smalls and ceramic than using ones from a previous stage. I don't burnish, and use a vibe for 220 SiC though polish. And you're right about them lasting indefinitely.
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Post by Bob on Aug 12, 2020 14:36:27 GMT -5
Thanks Eric. I think I will try them in next alum ox polish run too. For several years I've been doing 1 week in alum ox, then another week in alum ox (using dedicated polish and pellets used only for 2nd week and never used in 1st week). I have enough ready for polish to do two 6lb barrels at same time. So I could do one with pellets and one with polished smalls to compare.
I got into the porcelain non-abrasive ceramics a few years ago and recently bought 50lbs more. I like them, especially when their color helps me quickly keep track of rocks vs. filler in batches that are certain colors and in grit runs larger than 220. But when I don't need to use them for that purpose I don't use them much anymore.
The reason...when I let them run all the way to polish as an experiment 3-4 of years ago, my polish shine deteriorated at lot. In attempting to understand what happened, I started examining them with a 10x lens. The results horrified me. At least 1/3 had interior voids that were difficult to see with the naked eye. They were longitudinal cracks that didn't penetrate to the surface, so they didn't appear until ground down some. I visited with KN about this and sent photos. They admitted to having quality control problems with a supplier that were ongoing and frustrating. I think they even said they nearly stopped selling them due to this problem. So I was probably getting fine SC grit carried into my polish batches inside these ceramic pieces.
So I don't let ceramics go into polish anymore and results went back to normal and good. Of course, that quality problem may have been only temporary.
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Aug 12, 2020 17:06:15 GMT -5
I've had ceramics with cracks and holes in them revealed by the material removal of tumbling. Not a lot but they went in the trash. Maybe 1% like that from The Rock Shed. In the last 3 months or so I have been using the same ceramic and some obsidian pebbles for AO500 and polish over and over, with great results. Originally these had been exposed to as large as 60 grit to begin with, but that was long, long ago.
I also prepared quite a bit of agate and jasper saw scraps in the rotary to replace the drab white ceramics at some point. Get some color in there and use some of my "waste"!
I figured I can use saw scraps and small rounded stones for any other stage, and if needed, polish a few more for the AO steps. Win win
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,422
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Post by Wooferhound on Aug 13, 2020 8:06:01 GMT -5
Around here we preach about Not using plastic or any soft filler in a Stage 1 tumble. You are trying to grind away hard rock , not soft plastic.
I always end a polished batch with a One Hour burnish run without any Cushioning Media and filling the barrel To The Top with water to slow it all down.
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lookatthat
Cave Dweller
Whatever there is to be found.
Member since May 2017
Posts: 1,360
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Post by lookatthat on Aug 13, 2020 16:52:49 GMT -5
These plastic beads are a pain in the can. I only use them in the pre-polish and polish, but, ugh. They are like little annoying insects to handle.
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Post by Mel on Aug 22, 2020 9:55:10 GMT -5
I love the idea of using pebbles as cushioning. I like plastic pellets OK but keeping the polish & prepolish stages separate is a pain in the butt, and they roll everywhere!! The one benefit is that they float so separating the load is super easy but I'm on the fence whether it's worth the hassle or not. I've also read a few people complain about micro scratches from plastics but I haven't noticed that with my naked eye. Maybe it's reason to justify purchasing a magnifier.....
Most of what I've read suggests either ceramic cylinders, plastic pellets or small agate pebbles. I've also heard of people using tile spacers, broken ceramic tile (this could be a very interesting experiment!), and triangular plastic media made for polishing metal.
FWIW, I typically do a polish for 5-7 days with 600 grit & pellets, then polish with titanium dioxide & pellets for cushioning another 5-7, and my stones are turning out wonderfully. Just got some ceramic I'll be trying next week, but in light of this thread, I've started creating a stash of polished pebbles to use too.
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summer69
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2021
Posts: 2
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Post by summer69 on Jul 14, 2021 22:14:07 GMT -5
Just wanted to share my recent discovery! I've only been polishing for about a year now but my last batch of rocks were ready for the polishing step when I realized I didn't have any media to fill the drum to the correct level. It was late at night no stores open and I'm impatient so after brainstorming thought of the plastic pellets inside stuffed animals and beanie baby's!!! Found a few in daughters room, ripped them open and voila!! Free and worked great!!!
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,422
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Post by Wooferhound on Jul 15, 2021 9:55:15 GMT -5
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Post by Bob on Jul 25, 2021 20:40:59 GMT -5
I tried some once and they didn't float and so I hated them. The black plastic ones from KN float and are so easy to work with.
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tumblee
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2021
Posts: 154
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Post by tumblee on Jul 25, 2021 23:09:38 GMT -5
I trashed the plastics after they slowed the process. I only have a tumbler at the moment, so can't say about in a vibe. Doing Tiger, so I assume it depends on the mohs as to hindering or not. Ceramic can move forward with the rocks. Plastic retained the media/rock and cushioned too much. Just a newbee opinion here...
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Post by stephan on Jul 25, 2021 23:13:54 GMT -5
I tried some once and they didn't float and so I hated them. The black plastic ones from KN float and are so easy to work with. So your smalls float?
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tumblee
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2021
Posts: 154
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Post by tumblee on Jul 25, 2021 23:24:27 GMT -5
A Doctor once told me that if your smalls don't float, you are not getting enough roughage.
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Post by aDave on Jul 25, 2021 23:42:26 GMT -5
Has anyone else ever tried this or have thoughts on this? I've started to wonder about using these polished smalls instead of pellets in the polish stage too to see what happens. The small are probably at least 75% misc. jaspers and agates, but there is also misc. feldspar, rhodonite, crystal quartz, and what not. I think all had been filtered through a 1/2" mesh sieve. -Bob I haven't tried this, but I don't know if I would. Plastic is nothing more than a volume filler which adds cushioning, so I don't know why smalls would have any difference in performance when running a pure burnish stage. Now, if you told me you did this in a polish stage where there is grit, I might understand a difference since there are more (hard) grinding surfaces for your finished product. Heck, I just reread the quoted line above, and I agree that smalls in a polish stage "might" help when compared to plastic. Then again, I don't really know. I used plastic in all my stages except coarse. That's the way I rolled (no pun intended). Because of that, I'm a big fan of the material, despite the knocks it gets from folks who don't like to use the things. My runs were painfully long, but the results were very, very good. I found a good process, and it worked for me. Most are surprised my material didn't come out of a vibe, so plastic did me well.
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tumblee
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2021
Posts: 154
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Post by tumblee on Jul 26, 2021 1:07:20 GMT -5
Speaking of time, from what I have read here, Tumble a couple of weeks to shape in 1, then move on to a vibe which allegedly knocks off 70% of time for the shine stages. I can only hope! The ceramic is doing great with tiger. Two months so far, but glass is what I'm waiting for.
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Post by HankRocks on Jul 26, 2021 7:58:40 GMT -5
I use polished smalls as a filler for my Polish stage. One reason is to make up the volume difference between the 15 pound rotary non-polish stages and the UV-18 Vib tumbler I use for the Polish run. The other is that they provide more contact points/cushioning during the Polish run.
For most agate/Jasper/Pet Wood runs I sometimes use a handful of the previously polished as filler if needed after 220, 600 or AO Pre-polish runs. I have one dedicated 15 pound rotary for running most 1st stage batches. After the stage, any deemed worthy for advancement get pulled out and fresh rough added. That way when I start a 220 batch the barrel is loaded with rocks ready to move on, no volume filler needed. Only added in subsequent stages.
For Quartz/Obsidian(Apache Tear) runs I add previously tumbled filler after each stage as the original rock wear much faster. Usually by the time I get to the polish run I am about 40% to 50% filler. This has the added benefit of providing more and more cushioning as the rocks progress thru the stages, which is when they need it most. Same this for Slab and Pendant preform runs.
I tried using plastic pellets for a short period of time, hated them. Must of doubled my clean-out time. That and keeping the pellets separated for each stage was a big hassle for me.
Probably have about 10 gallons of polished smalls and more added with each run so I will never run out.
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Post by greig on Jul 26, 2021 11:36:19 GMT -5
Ceramics or clean un-fractured smalls work well in polish or burnish ... and probably better than plastic pellets. What I like about plastic is it is cheap, just like me.
My only question is about the amount of Ivory soap in your burnish. I have never used a half bar in my 6 lb or a full in my 12. Probably a third of that amount (I don't measure). I burnish a minimum of 3 hours, but typically clean out from polish in the afternoon and burnish until sometime the next morning.
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