jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 1, 2020 8:30:24 GMT -5
Colloidal clay is pretty much the cadillac slurry for industrial abrasive operations. The industrial community charges big for their bottled slurries. My wife recently bought this diarrhea treatment for a litter of puppies. It is basically an $11 gallon of Peptol Bismal or Kaopectate, both are primarily highly refined kaolin clay. Primary concern for using this in a vibe is that the silica has been removed. Raw kaolin for mining uses is usually refined down to 220 grit silica. This may be refined more so since it is used for ingestion. Citrus is the pectin additive.
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quartzilla
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Post by quartzilla on Sept 1, 2020 21:53:43 GMT -5
Well at least your tumbler won’t leak and have the runs😛
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2020 6:28:42 GMT -5
Well at least your tumbler won’t leak and have the runs😛 Lol, don't forget gas quartzilla ! Actually kaolin does not prevent gas in a rotary tumbler. And I posted erroneous info... Things have changed. The use of kaolin was terminated in the 80's in Kaopectate. And I made an error, Pepto-Bismal has always utilized bismuth subsalicyclate as it's active ingredient. Wikipedia: "Kaopectate is an orally taken medication from Chattem, Inc. for the treatment of mild diarrhea. It is also sometimes used to treat indigestion, nausea, and stomach ulcers. The active ingredients have varied over time, and are different between the United States and Canada. The original active ingredients were kaolinite and pectin. In the US, the active ingredient is now bismuth subsalicylate (the same as in Pepto-Bismol)." No matter, this may be a cheap source of purified kaolin in suspension that I have been searching for a long time.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Sept 2, 2020 7:27:24 GMT -5
It's only 20% clay, is that enough?
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gatorflash1
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Post by gatorflash1 on Sept 2, 2020 7:46:54 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2020 9:01:03 GMT -5
It's only 20% clay, is that enough? About 10% kaolin is about right for a rotary EricD. Not sure about a vibe, new territory for me... So this bottle could probably be increased to 2 gallons by adding a gallon of water. It is on the thick side. Viscosity is this - it took about 5 seconds for a 38 gram agate to sink to the bottom when 2 inches deep. Not only is this gallon heavy due to density it is also has thick viscosity I will say that the colloidal particle suspension is the best I have ever seen. I filled a tall clear drinking glass and set it in the sun to heat it and to my surprise there was zero settlement. Obviously suspension additives have been added so the end user does not need to 'shake before using'. Or the kaolin is a high grade with large platelets. By the way the platelets break down during abrasion forces and becomes less effective. Fresh colloidal slurry additive is always best route after a clean out in a rotary. Perhaps polishing does better if not replacing the slurry, and certainly if silica has not been removed. Kaolin is about as good as it gets for the absolute thinnest strong protective coating because it is composed of flat particles derived from weathered felspar. This is what makes it such a good abrasive slurry for both hard and softer materials. Not to mention it lubricates well and has a high content of aluminum oxide, kaolin averages 30% AO. AO is also dense/heavy. A thin protective coating allows the smallest abrasive particles to grind the subject in high polish situations. England has the best kaolin, Georgia and Brazil just behind England in quality. But all 3 locations have veins of high grade. Grade definition varies by use, but large platelets is almost always desired in grading. This is a cup filled 2 inches with this liquid. It was tilted over an hour ago and the slick side walls of the container are still coated. This is desirable for abrasive operations. Citrus has been used to flavor it, along with Sodium Saccharin for a sweetener instead of kitchen sugar. Anyway, the main factor may be residual silica. If it is less than 500 to 1000 grit or smaller then it should not be an issue for final polish. Stands to reason if AO 500 breaks to polish then silica 500 will break down much faster than AO in a vibe. Ha, an accurate way to differentiate AO 220 from AO 500 to AO 1000 is by putting a dab of it in your mouth and lightly grinding it between your teeth. There is a big difference between the three. AO 14,000 will not be detectable when grinding between your teeth. I did the teeth grind test on this liquid and can about guarantee there is no particles larger than 5000 grit. Cup filled with Kaolin Pectate 4, vertical wall coated after an hour + sitting time.:
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2020 9:21:22 GMT -5
I get you gatorflash1. Most vibes do generate slurry quickly. When running glass in the vibe I have to add a slurry thickener right at start up. It only takes a few minutes to frost damage glass in a water slurry. It takes a long time to remove those frost marks. Agate may not behave the same way but it is possible, Note too that the slurry formed by a rotary is usually from silica. A silica slurry is not colloidal or flat platelet slurry. Typically it is made of roundish particles that are usually sharp. Think 'type of slurry'. And rounder particles settle by gravity faster. Yes, maybe threading needles but colloidal slurry has been the slurry of choice in abrasive operations for many decades. Why not utilize it in rock tumbling. I will compare this liquid to sugar in terms of speeding up AO 500-AO 1000-AO polish steps. And the end result of polish quality.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Sept 2, 2020 9:59:22 GMT -5
Makes me want to drop by the feed-n-seed place and get a gallon to try in my rotary
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2020 12:42:57 GMT -5
Makes me want to drop by the feed-n-seed place and get a gallon to try in my rotary If the gallon is 20% clay then they must have added 8 cups being a gallon is 40 cups. I add 2 to 3 straight cups of clay about every 4 days in a 12 pound rotary when using the large SiC at fast speed. Since the kaolin averages 50 feet deep around Atlanta it is real cheap lol, I trash a lot of kaolin clay by adding a lot of it. This kaolin peaked my interest for the vibe since it seems very refined of silica. Where as my raw clay is full of sand and chunks of quartz that can really mess up a polish in a vibe.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Sept 2, 2020 14:30:25 GMT -5
Makes me want to drop by the feed-n-seed place and get a gallon to try in my rotary If the gallon is 20% clay then they must have added 8 cups being a gallon is 40 cups. I add 2 to 3 straight cups of clay about every 4 days in a 12 pound rotary when using the large SiC at fast speed. Since the kaolin averages 50 feet deep around Atlanta it is real cheap lol, I trash a lot of kaolin clay by adding a lot of it. This kaolin peaked my interest for the vibe since it seems very refined of silica. Where as my raw clay is full of sand and chunks of quartz that can really mess up a polish in a vibe. I'm currently not using anything but water and grit in my rotary because I'm lazy. If I had a jug of that stuff I might use it, instead of water. I don't use huge grit so I bet even a cup, maybe two, would work great.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2020 16:34:17 GMT -5
If the gallon is 20% clay then they must have added 8 cups being a gallon is 40 cups. I add 2 to 3 straight cups of clay about every 4 days in a 12 pound rotary when using the large SiC at fast speed. Since the kaolin averages 50 feet deep around Atlanta it is real cheap lol, I trash a lot of kaolin clay by adding a lot of it. This kaolin peaked my interest for the vibe since it seems very refined of silica. Where as my raw clay is full of sand and chunks of quartz that can really mess up a polish in a vibe. I'm currently not using anything but water and grit in my rotary because I'm lazy. If I had a jug of that stuff I might use it, instead of water. I don't use huge grit so I bet even a cup, maybe two, would work great.
Water works for 60-80-90. For SiC 46-30 or bigger it helps to use a thickener. About mandatory for 8-16-24 and usually SiC 30. I think tumbler suppliers suggest 60-80-90 to avoid going into explaining slurry.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 2, 2020 16:56:20 GMT -5
Any clay or dried slurry helps some steps of tumbling. I was focusing on the best some what common clays used for abrasive slurry.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Sept 2, 2020 20:57:49 GMT -5
I did the used slurry thing for a while in the rotary but got lazy. Would be cheaper to just buy a thickener than time used on that.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 7, 2020 13:00:41 GMT -5
I did the used slurry thing for a while in the rotary but got lazy. Would be cheaper to just buy a thickener than time used on that. Keep in mind about all clay is Mother Earth's slurry. They are both worn rocks particles. Running a vibe load with the kaolin pectate for AO 220 and AO polish runs. Should know how well it does in 2 to 4 days. Should the AO 220 break down faster to a polish in 2 or 3 days I will know this slurry is out performing sugar. By the same token if a polish never happens then my experiment is a failure. Odd that it looks so wet but slows the action so much. Used 1/2 cup in each side of 4 pounds.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 7, 2020 14:48:36 GMT -5
After only 30 minutes, a wet polish removed with AO 220. May have an efficient quick acting slurry for the vibe.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 8, 2020 7:12:24 GMT -5
I could not have woke up to a better sight. 2pm to 7 am is 17 hours. My first ever run using processed kaolin. AO 220 already with a fine pre-polish. That is normally a 3 day run in the vibe using sugar/Borax. IMO slurry is totally critical to efficient abrasive processing. Kaolin is the Cadillac of slurry additives in the industrial abrasive industry. But does it work on rocks ? A fact it works well with metals. My first access to purified kaolin suspension with silica particles apparently removed results in big victory. And no water was added ! Gallon jug is a liquid with kaolin in suspension. before 17 hours AO 220 after 17 hours AO 220
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 8, 2020 8:18:46 GMT -5
Used 1/2 cup of Kaolin Pectate 4 liquid in each side of dual compartment tumbler. That equates to 1 cup for 8 pounds of rock. Dose was guessed at. May do well with half a cup for 8 pounds... This run is at it's 18th hour. Plan is to let it run till the polish stops improving. Hopefully the AO 220 will break down to AO 5000 to AO 15,000 or even smaller for the wet shine zone. Note pink color has been changed to lite brown color, typical of wearing rocks. Note well defined snail tracks at close up due to contact points moving around efficiently. This is a highly lubricated slurry noted for it's very thin protective layer at even high pressures. A big concern for finer abrasives to reach surface being abraded. Kaolin's thin layers are achieved by it's flat particle structures strengthened by a high content of aluminum oxide. Kaolin is composed of 30 to 33 percent natural aluminum oxide.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 8, 2020 19:11:18 GMT -5
Photos taken at 30 hours, 17 hours and 30 minutes in AO 220. Stone started with a fine polish. Stone near a fine polish. Used 1 cup liquid for the 8 pounds of stones. Guessing a high polish will take one to three hours using Rock Shed AO 14,000. May drop AO doses to 1 tablespoon AO 220 and AO 14,000 to increase breakdown time. I feel that the abrasive is being well distributed and circulated among the stones. I have found that large doses of pre-polish and polish is unnecessary and takes more time to break down. Large doses are overkill and slows both pre-polish and higher than 14,000 polish. And may do another load with AO 220 but without AO 14,000 polish to see if the natural aluminum oxide in the kaolin makes a polish. If the liquid is 20% clay then there is about 1/3 of a cup of natural aluminum oxide in this 1 cup dose. 30 hours,17 hours,30 minutes. Stone started with a high polish.
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Post by RocksInNJ on Sept 8, 2020 22:06:52 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 7:27:54 GMT -5
Glad to amuse RocksInNJ ! I hope the photos help create a 'believable' story lol.
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