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Post by Bob on Mar 11, 2021 17:50:15 GMT -5
The night before last, the 40lb barrel was due again. I had overfilled the water some due to last week. It was okay, though not as thin as I expected it to be with the overfilling. The slurry though seems a bit odd, a bit whiter than usual. When I really look at it, instead of just the normal plain uniform grey, it's got some swirls in it a little bit like paint does just before becoming fully stirred. Of course, I don't usually look at the surface of the slurry, but I am now. Something is just off.
But, I'm using only new water now and so it got recharged with only new water. Will see on the others soon.
I hope to call the City Water Depart next week when I have more time. My mind has been processing this like crazy. I've only come up with 3 ideas:
1. The City changed the tap water in some way.
2. I have a number of 5 gal plastic buckets. Sometimes I will find one, like it better than an old one, and keep it and throw the old one away. Sometimes I will find them by the dumpster behind my office building. I have wondered if I cycled one of these found ones into my rinse processing system and what could play out if it had some remnant in it of a little bit of this or that.
3. When I tumble delicate things, such as rose q, amethyst, c q, smoky q, obs, glass, feldspars, etc. I sometimes put in a little sawdust from the bin underneath my table saw. I don't measure it, but an example might be 1/4 cup in a 12lb barrel. A small handful in a 20lb barrel. It's free, it works, and I've been doing it for maybe 5 years when I want a bit of extra cushioning. The slurry is always a bit different after, often slimier, and maybe a little bit thicker but not a lot. I did this with a 12lb batch of glass and obs in early Febr, and that water would have been rinsed off and made it into my rinse bucket system. What if something was weird about it? I had made a bunch of new rock boxes out of Baltic Birch plywood, which is famous for it's solid plies and superior glued veneer layers. Seems like normal sawdust but what if it contained some chemical that did something strange to the water? This is something I can test if needed because I have lots more of that same sawdust. But that same sawdust had been used off and on a little bit over about 6 months and was fine.
I don't buy the ideas about strange absorbent rocks or with soft centers or whatever. These are very hard rocks like I've been tumbling for years. Plus, this slurry happened across multiple barrels and barrel sizes with different rocks types in some of them. Some of them were rocks processed in the 40lb barrel and well rounded and only maybe 1mm of some fracture left, so were next put in a 12lb barrel for one more week of coarse grind but with less exposure to a very large rock impact.
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rockstock
spending too much on rocks
Member since April 2019
Posts: 472
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Post by rockstock on Mar 11, 2021 18:42:36 GMT -5
Floc/polymer makes things thicker as well as settle out quicker for your rinse buckets. Whether this is from water supply, bucket swap out or your wood effects(no clue if any wood has similar properties)
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Post by Bob on Mar 12, 2021 10:35:05 GMT -5
Last night a 12lb barrel of glass/obs was due after 8-9 days in 80. Looked ok more or less after opening, though slurry lighter colored than usual. After emptying the barrel I got a surprise.
About 1/4th of the cup of grit was still left, and looked just like new 80 grit! This had never happened before. It's like after 6 years of everything being super predictable more or less, it's now weird and strange.
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Post by miket on Mar 12, 2021 10:40:08 GMT -5
Last night a 12lb barrel of glass/obs was due after 8-9 days in 80. Looked ok more or less after opening, though slurry lighter colored than usual. After emptying the barrel I got a surprise. About 1/4th of the cup of grit was still left, and looked just like new 80 grit! This had never happened before. It's like after 6 years of everything being super predictable more or less, it's now weird and strange. Maybe your barrel is just mirroring the rest of the world these days...
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Mar 12, 2021 12:29:38 GMT -5
Strange ... I had written a reply to this and was informed that the RTH has auto-logged me out of the system.
Oh well, without reading all of the posts above, I would have to say that you might have dug into a new bag of grit. I have seen some changes to my 46/70 grit in my latest shipment, and it has had an effect on my tumble viscosity.
The first thing that comes to mind is water. But .. I am not sure that there is any effect that could be had here. I have experimented with soft water, bottled water, water treated with higher Alkaline, and the extremely high contaminated and treated tap water of Southern Nevada (which I would not drink myself), and have never seen any difference. But only in small experiments, and not en mass. My 2 cents.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 12, 2021 15:05:00 GMT -5
I think it's your rocks too, probably the rocks you think are chert. When I tumble Petoskey Stones, my slurry gets very thick. It's so thick that I always add twice the water when tumbling them. The other thing that happens when I tumble Peotseky stones is that the water in my slurry bucket settles very quickly. The water on top is so clear that I siphon it off and pour it down the sink. I think you're tumbling limestone and don't realize it.
The only thing that could thicken your slurry is rock dust. Have you noticed that the rock volume is way down at the end of the week? You could weigh them before and after to get a more accurate idea of what's happening.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Mar 13, 2021 6:18:30 GMT -5
I took a few months off from tumbling but started back again after returning from Yuma Arizona with some interesting rocks, and entering the Rock Tumbling Contest. My stage 1 tumbles went normally, but stage 2 & 3 seemed to have gotten thicker than than ever, plus more material seemed to have been removed as compared to tumbling months before.
The interesting thing is that I am using Stage 2 (220) & 3 (600) grit in New freshly opened boxes from Kingsley North, the same guys that I always purchase my grit from.
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Post by Bob on Mar 13, 2021 13:05:38 GMT -5
Hmmm...I did start with a new bucket of 60 grit recently...maybe late Jan or early Feb. Can't remember if from KN or JESCO because I open and pour it in 5 gal buckets. Gives me something else to check. I could wash it if needed. Sure looks like grit always does. I buy it 100 to 200lbs at a time usually.
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,095
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Post by stefan on Mar 13, 2021 13:17:23 GMT -5
Plywood dust? Thick slurry? Hmmm possible strange reaction with the glue from the plywood dust? A possible culprit!
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Post by Bob on Mar 17, 2021 16:05:15 GMT -5
Well, 2 or 3 loads have been recharged in last few days, and the slurry is almost back to normal. I continue to discard my dirtiest first rinse water instead of reusing it.
This tells me it was not the material but something in the water. I continue to use the same bucket of grit. After all is back to normal, I may test that plywood sawdust idea.
Funny because always using dirty water, the dirtiest I had, (except for polish of course) is one of the things that increased my tumbling efficiency and helped make perfect slurries starting a few years ago.
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,095
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Post by stefan on Mar 17, 2021 17:10:46 GMT -5
Sounds like you're getting it figured out (AGAIN!)
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Post by Bob on Mar 24, 2021 12:37:23 GMT -5
Now that all the tumblers have returned to normal slurry me having used only new water, my problem is over. I just called the City Water Department and talked. We had an bad ice storm in Febr, it knocked out the main city pumps for 3 days, and the City was switched to Oklahoma State Univ's water supply for those days. Each comes from a different lake. He had complaints that people smelled the water and he figured it was because of the source lake change. However, he said the output from the trt plants is chemically identical because their methods are the same. I told him what was going on with me, and he can think of nothing that could have played a part with what comes out of the water tap. I even used the word flocculent in case it caused him to think of anything related to flocculation.
I'm going to next test that sawdust. If it doesn't explain it I'm going to give up. I'm still using the same 5 gal barrel of grit that I started using in Febr, just further down into it.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Mar 24, 2021 17:30:24 GMT -5
I would absolutely make sure your Flocculation is right .
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Post by Bob on Apr 2, 2021 11:20:23 GMT -5
This is getting ridiculous. After almost 2 weeks of all being normal, last night I processed two 20lb barrels. One was normal and this was the other one. I almost died when I opened it. No I am not a beginner--this is my 7th year. No I fill with plenty of water. No I'm not tumbling new material that is porous or soaks up water. In fact, since much of this has been trimmed with my recently setup lapidary saw, my usual rock loads have less porous and problem areas than ever. No I'm not throwing in towels or dead furry animals before I seal it up. No I haven't yet added any sawdust again to test that theory. To add some water to this, put it back on the tumbler, and get the slurry pourable takes adding not just a little bit, but almost a quart! I have contacted the company that I buy my coarse grit from to ask if they have any that is contaminated or have ever heard of such. I have also thought of one other variable. I buy large quantities of quartz gravel 1/2" to 3/4" on eBay to use for smalls. I buy 50lb boxes and inside those boxes are 5 sealed plastic bags of 10lbs each. What if something was in one of those bags? I can tell the gravel has been coated with some oil or paraffin or something to make them a bit prettier, and this is common with landscaping gravel. But I've been buying from the same seller for 5 years and this gravel has worked fine all those years. I asked him once if he gets the material himself from gravel bars in California or what. He said he buys in bulk quantities from China. This gives me one other variable to test, but this whole matter is getting very weird. I also have just realized I could buy water at Walmart and test that for a month and cut out the City water supply completely. Just as I was starting to think it had all ended--this happens again. Now I almost want to close my eyes every time I open a barrel.
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Post by parfive on Apr 2, 2021 11:53:55 GMT -5
I have also thought of one other variable. I buy large quantities of quartz gravel 1/2" to 3/4" on eBay to use for smalls. I buy 50lb boxes and inside those boxes are 5 sealed plastic bags of 10lbs each. What if something was in one of those bags? I can tell the gravel has been coated with some oil or paraffin or something to make them a bit prettier, and this is common with landscaping gravel. But I've been buying from the same seller for 5 years and this gravel has worked fine all those years. I asked him once if he gets the material himself from gravel bars in California or what. He said he buys in bulk quantities from China. This gives me one other variable to test, but this whole matter is getting very weird. Drippings from the old wet market in Wuhan?
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Post by HankRocks on Apr 2, 2021 12:48:55 GMT -5
I believe the suggestion was made to weigh the starting rocks, including the smalls before and then after. It has to be something that's disintegrating into slurry. My vote is on the smalls from China. Maybe the rock or maybe a the coating or filler so smooth them.
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Post by Bob on Apr 2, 2021 14:05:48 GMT -5
parfive, I was about 2 miles from that market when the news broke, and it's temping to make up some funny story about walking there and then scraping off my shoes in the USA into the barrel. My flight out was on Jan 10, 13 days before the lockdown.
hankrocks, I've been using those smalls so long I don't even look at them anymore after I slit open a bag. Usually they are 75% milky quartz/quartzite, and the rest mixed up brown and black and maybe 10% porous lightweight soft crud that when I see one I just toss in the trash. I'll look at the bags and see if by any chance that crud is running more than usual. I agree that if a lot of it was that crud, a lot of water could be soaked up.
One thing for sure, is if it's the disposable smalls that I purchase, it could explain how two 20lb barrels started on the same day a week ago could have such different slurries yesterday. That's because I choose whether or not to add smalls at all, and how much, depending upon the load. Sometimes a load might be up to 50% added smalls if I'm tumbling just 1 to 5 very large rocks. If the tumbled material itself has sufficient keeper smalls in process, I might add none. The most common arrangement though is that a load probably has around 10% added smalls. My log sheets have a place in which I could start noting the added smalls %, and I might just do that for a while.
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Post by Bob on Apr 2, 2021 15:43:45 GMT -5
Just heard back from the grit supplier. The only variable they have ever seen, is sometimes the grit has been contaminated by iron particles that can be detected with a magnet. They said this has only happened in grits 220 and finer. And that even if it happened it would not explain the thickened slurry.
I'm actually kind of excited about switching to bottled water to totally cut out tap water as a possible culprit. My Chinese wife refuses to drink tap water (for good reason in China) and so I have to keep a supply of bottled water around. I think it's running about $4/5 gals so will not be expensive for me to test.
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Post by Bob on Jul 7, 2021 14:29:53 GMT -5
For those who were curious about this thread, an update. Here I am 3 months later, and it hasn't happened yet again, even though I've used grit from 2-3 different suppliers and more of the same rock and tap water. So, I'm about to test the sawdust idea because all this time I've kept that container of sawdust made from sawing the Baltic birch plywood. Here goes...
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kyoti
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2020
Posts: 542
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Post by kyoti on Jul 10, 2021 18:18:53 GMT -5
Bob I've had this happen a few times and for me it was usually heat related. My tumblers run in the garage and Texas summers can really heat things up. It usually happens in coarse or the 120 rounds when I'm doing flint with thick crusts. One other time was when I tried to tumble some soft local crystal I find. Turned out that it was Selenite/ gypsum. It sucked up every drop of water in the barrel. Oops!
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