stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,095
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Post by stefan on Apr 16, 2021 13:22:24 GMT -5
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Apr 16, 2021 13:59:19 GMT -5
Not arguing with you stephan . Just stating my opinion. You may have a medical background, but you have no expertise with mRNA used as a vaccine. Nobody does. It's brand new and it's experimental. You and the rest of the folks who have offered themselves up to Big Pharma as guinea pigs will be the ones who, in the long run, determine whether this type of a treatment is even effective against this virus. The fact that people who are supposedly fully immunized are still getting Covid and dying does not give me the warm fuzzies.
And what recourse do people have in the future if these supposed vaccines end up being responsible for all kinds of other medical issues that could cause early death? None.
I actually have plenty of experience working with mRNA, and it's not a brand new technology. The first vaccines were created for the first SARS outbreak, but ended up not being needed, as other measures (distancing, surveillance and mask-wearing) stopped that outbreak. The shorter incubation period made that a lot easier, among other factors. As far as effectiveness -- yes, mRNA is effective. It is the blueprint for proteins, which in turn cause the immune reaction. Please don't take this as disrespectful, but I'm going to make an analogy here, and then talk about a few other things. Please take the time to read. Since geology seems to be one branch of science that people to accept on this forum, I will use it. The statement that, in your book, the flu shot is not a vaccine is kind of like saying that obsidian is not an igneous rock, because it is different than pumice and basalt. Science, however, is not based on opinion. It is based on evidence. The evidence can and does change, but we have to start somewhere. Similarly to the immense variation in igneous rocks, there is immense variation in viruses. To use another analogy (shooting), some viruses will be relatively easy, like target shooting. Others will be more like duck-hunting (a moving target). Predicting the flu would be more like hunting ducks on meth. For influenza A alone, the surface antigens can combine in many different ways: 18 H-sub-types and 11 N-subtypes can combine in 198 different ways. Every year, a prediction of which one(s) will be dominant must be made months in advance, because the process of producing, testing, packaging and distributing vaccines takes a while. This is where the beauty of mRNA comes in. If the virus mutates, we can pivot a lot faster than we could after millions (about 140 million each year). As far far as vaccine effectiveness and safety, there are a few things to remember: - No vaccine is ever 100% effective - 5800 people have caught COVID after being fully vaccinated (75M), 75 have died. This is a death rate of 1 in a million (0.0001%), as opposed to 0.17% of unvaccinated Americans. - Full immunity takes time to develop, as the body has to go through a process called isotype switching, where the predominant antibodies mature from IgA to IgG. - The adverse clotting events did NOT happen with the mRNA vaccines. They happened with a more traditional vaccine. The pause is due to and abundance of caution, as it is not even clear that the vaccine caused them. Literally 1 in 1,000,000 could be a coincidence, or due to rare underlying causes, we shall see. In any case, the pause shows that the safety systems are working. Like the COVID death rate for the vaccinated, the adverse event rate is more than 17,000-fold lower than your chances of dying from COVID, if you are not vaccinated. What I find interesting is that people rebel against every single tool that the government has at its disposal: distancing, masking, vaccination. And they fail to remember that this is not like failing to wear a seatbelt. If you do not wear a seatbelt, you endanger only yourself. With infectious diseases, you risk the lives of others as well. As for not having recourse if there is an adverse event from a vaccine, what recourse do you have from death by COVID? Or long-haul symptoms. I personally know at least three people who are long-haulers. They do not know if they will ever get better. Luckily, there is data that suggest that the vaccine may help some of these people by helping them fully clear the infection. Others may not be so lucky. I encourage people disregard the propaganda about scientists. Sure, the can be bad apples, like everywhere, but most of us are working long hours and making far less money than we could in other fields. When unfounded, untrue "information" is spread, often with astonishing gall and venom, it is quite hurtful, in addition to being dangerous. Just remember that often the people who initiate this information have no skin in the game when it comes to truth. They simply get paid more for more eyeballs. I am not dissing scientists at all. I have great respect for them. However, even though you have plenty of experience working the mRNA, you have no experience working with it as a vaccine. It is new and still in the experimental stage. The FDA has never approved any mRNA vaccines for use with SARS, MERS, and RSV so the long-term consequences of them are unknown. However, there is paper (written by scientists!):
Informed consent disclosure to vaccine trial subjects of risk of COVID-19 vaccines worsening clinical disease Timothy Cardozo 1 , Ronald Veazey 2 Affiliations Affiliations
1 Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Pharmacology, NYU Langone Health, New York, NY, USA. 2 Division of Comparative Pathology, Department of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, Tulane University School of Medicine, Tulane National Primate Research Center, Covington, LA, USA.
PMID: 33113270 PMCID: PMC7645850 DOI: 10.1111/ijcp.13795
Free PMC article Abstract
Aims of the study: Patient comprehension is a critical part of meeting medical ethics standards of informed consent in study designs. The aim of the study was to determine if sufficient literature exists to require clinicians to disclose the specific risk that COVID-19 vaccines could worsen disease upon exposure to challenge or circulating virus.
Methods used to conduct the study: Published literature was reviewed to identify preclinical and clinical evidence that COVID-19 vaccines could worsen disease upon exposure to challenge or circulating virus. Clinical trial protocols for COVID-19 vaccines were reviewed to determine if risks were properly disclosed.
Results of the study: COVID-19 vaccines designed to elicit neutralising antibodies may sensitise vaccine recipients to more severe disease than if they were not vaccinated. Vaccines for SARS, MERS and RSV have never been approved, and the data generated in the development and testing of these vaccines suggest a serious mechanistic concern: that vaccines designed empirically using the traditional approach (consisting of the unmodified or minimally modified coronavirus viral spike to elicit neutralising antibodies), be they composed of protein, viral vector, DNA or RNA and irrespective of delivery method, may worsen COVID-19 disease via antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). This risk is sufficiently obscured in clinical trial protocols and consent forms for ongoing COVID-19 vaccine trials that adequate patient comprehension of this risk is unlikely to occur, obviating truly informed consent by subjects in these trials.
Conclusions drawn from the study and clinical implications: The specific and significant COVID-19 risk of ADE should have been and should be prominently and independently disclosed to research subjects currently in vaccine trials, as well as those being recruited for the trials and future patients after vaccine approval, in order to meet the medical ethics standard of patient comprehension for informed consent.
Before I read this, I didn't know this information. Nobody I know of who has gotten the vaccine has been informed of this. Did you know it?
Then there is this one. Granted, this paper has not been peer reviewed yet, but the possibility of it happening is there since they can make it happen in a petri dish. Again, nobody knows yet because it is new and there has not been enough time spent to find out whether or not it can happen. Even the most educated, intelligent scientist in the world today could not have known this yet, so I find your statement about minimal side effects a bit naive because this is a BIG side effect if it ends up happening.
These 2 papers are on the National Library of Medicine website.
My remark about no recourse was meant to include the families of the person who died (spouse, children, siblings, etc.) and was referring to recourse against the pharmaceutical companies making the vaccines. If someone dies of Covid, covid killed them. If someone dies from the side-effects of a vaccine or there are side-effects like above, there is no recourse because of the experimental status. So, a family member dies because of this - so what's one death in a million, right, as long as it's not one of your loved ones. And btw, my sister's neighbor who is in the hospital from tons of blood clots in her stomach and her organs shutting down right after she got the shot had the Pfizer shot. They had to take out part of her colon, so she gets to wear a bag now. Luckily, after she heals and goes through physical therapy to learn how to walk again she gets to have another operation to reconnect everything to get rid of the bag.
I'm in no way trying to be disrespectful of your profession or the scientists trying to abate the pandemic. I do have concerns about the safety of this vaccine and the way the government is pushing this on the public like it was nothing to worry about ($50 million being spent on encouraging getting the shot), the Big Pharma companies who just want to make a buck off a disaster and the main stream media who suppress this information because of political reasons. These are just my feelings and nothing more.
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 16, 2021 14:24:08 GMT -5
hummingbirdstones and stephan I really admire how well you have each expressed yourselves. There are 2 sides to every coin. I'm in the cautious camp myself, but that doesn't mean to belittle any one or any profession.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,456
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 16, 2021 14:40:07 GMT -5
Wife and I got Moderna shot #2 yesterday PM So far my side effects not too bad, pain at injection site, some muscle soreness, some chills. Wife's a bit worse but not horrible. Easy to tell from the literature you are given that we are an experimental group but all such treatments are a personal risk assessment thing. Folks we know of have died of Covid, including one guy who was an iron man competitor and fairly young. Every medical treatment has inherent risk and no vaccine is 100% effective. At 95% effectiveness, five from a hundred folks will get Covid. However it does seem few of those die or need hospitalization. Some will de of course, as many folks have medical conditions that might kill them shots or not. I've had flu shots every year except one since they came out with them. That one time I caught a horrible case of the flu, was very sick for over a week, and the had chronic bronchitis that I had to go to the doctor for. Experiences like that are why I get shots. Yes, there is risk involved, undoubtedly less risk than every day I get on our most unpredictable horse. If there's a good chance the shots will keep us from dying of Covid, which even if you do not die can have horrible long term effects, and taking the shots may help me to love a more normal life, well I'll happily take that risk.
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Post by stephan on Apr 16, 2021 15:02:59 GMT -5
hummingbirdstones I may have not have worked with human subjects, but I have worked with mRNA vaccine technology. It really isn't new. Granted, anything has a risk, especially since we are not clones, but I am comfortable with the relative risk of the vaccine vs the risk of the disease. One of the beauties of the mRNA technology is that in many ways, it carries less risk than traditional manufacture of viruses or virus-like-particles. Most vaccines are made in eggs, plants, bacteria or hamster cells. One thing that all living things do when making proteins is to "glycosylate" (add sugar residues to certain amino acids) in a very species-specific manner. This is the primary cause of allergic reactions. Both mouse and primate models have borne this out. Another risk is that "scaffolding" viruses or attenuated can revert to wild-type. This is rare, but can cause serious disease when it does. This is 100% impossible when administering the mRNA for just the spike protein. Viruses need a host of other genes to hijack our cells into replicating them. As for the paper, that is an issue with all clinical trials. Some percentage of the population is not going to understand the risks. Some others will understand it very well (grad students, medical workers...). Some will do it for the money. The aim of clinical studies, these days, is to have a diverse pool in terms of gender, age, socio-economic levels and race. This has not always been the case. It was, in the past, often the case that only young and middle-aged men were tested. Kids and women were out. Black men, prisoners and "overseas" minorities were likely to be the placebo group, or the initial safety trials. We have gotten much better. My heart goes out to your sister's neighbor, whatever the cause of her blood clots. No one is saying "what's one death in a million?" The risk of anyone dying keeps researcher and doctors up at night. What we are saying, and what I have repeated at least three times, is that the relative risk is lower than the risk from COVID. Also, no one is "pushing it like there is nothing to worry about." The government is being far more transparent and vigilant than we have seen in a long time. Biden has let the CDC and FDA do their work, even though the pause is inconvenient to the goal of population immunity. Any death is too many. My hope is that if these blood clots are related to the vaccine, they'll figure it out, as well as the risk factors. Remember, though, that in any given year 1 in 1000 people will experience a blood clot that hospitalizes them. I agree with you that all need to make their own decisions. No one is going to force the hesitant. However, what I was seeing posted here, on more than one occasion was a tilting toward anti-vaccine, with what often sounded like a disdainful attitude. It may not have been deliberate, but it was there. I have seen other things as well that I find objectionable, but I'll keep it on-topic. I am simply providing the positive side of the argument. I, myself, was planning on waiting a little longer, until there was more data, but what swayed me was the fact that a large enough portion of our population is inconsiderate ***holes. Too many people who won't wear masks AND stand too close at the grocery store, some of them with nasty coughs. One was even nice enough to be on phone, shouting so everyone could hear, "I woke up short of breath this morning..." I'll take my chance with the vaccine. Thanks. Plus, at some point, I really want to see live music again, eat my food at the restaurant..., without having to worry excessively about the coughing jerk who insists on standing three feet away. ETA: to address the criticism of one of the authors, very few trials are "designed to tell us if they will save lives." To do that definitively, they would have to be challenge trials, and that is considered to be unethical. We can INFER, however, from the relative disease incidence among the vaccinated vs the placebo, and the antibody response. Remember that these trials are double-blinded until concluded and evaluated to avoid bias. Also, letters are easily published. I remember reading one, in a prestigious journal, where the author passionately felt that he had proof that MSG caused AIDS. Yes, you read that correctly. Also, Dr. Atkins (he of low-carb fame) published his theory that ozone (which kills in very low doses) eliminates the HIV infection.
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Post by stephan on Apr 16, 2021 15:04:08 GMT -5
hummingbirdstones and stephan I really admire how well you have each expressed yourselves. There are 2 sides to every coin. I'm in the cautious camp myself, but that doesn't mean to belittle any one or any profession. Between the two of us, both sides of the argument will be expressed.
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Post by stephan on Apr 16, 2021 15:09:04 GMT -5
Wife and I got Moderna shot #2 yesterday PM So far my side effects not too bad, pain at injection site, some muscle soreness, some chills. Wife's a bit worse but not horrible. Easy to tell from the literature you are given that we are an experimental group but all such treatments are a personal risk assessment thing. Folks we know of have died of Covid, including one guy who was an iron man competitor and fairly young. Every medical treatment has inherent risk and no vaccine is 100% effective. At 95% effectiveness, five from a hundred folks will get Covid. However it does seem few of those die or need hospitalization. Some will de of course, as many folks have medical conditions that might kill them shots or not. I've had flu shots every year except one since they came out with them. That one time I caught a horrible case of the flu, was very sick for over a week, and the had chronic bronchitis that I had to go to the doctor for. Experiences like that are why I get shots. Yes, there is risk involved, undoubtedly less risk than every day I get on our most unpredictable horse. If there's a good chance the shots will keep us from dying of Covid, which even if you do not die can have horrible long term effects, and taking the shots may help me to love a more normal life, well I'll happily take that risk. Unpredictable horse for you, biking around cars for me. I also get flu shots, but not for myself. I have tended* to get very mild cases in the past. I get it because everyone else in the household has asthma or other respiratory issues, and I don't want to transmit to them. * Except for the year that i was so sick that I was hallucinating. You just never know. My wife once ended up with pneumonia for three months after the flu.
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Post by RickB on Apr 17, 2021 21:11:00 GMT -5
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Post by stephan on Apr 17, 2021 22:54:56 GMT -5
That is more than an oops. If they are following GCP, that should never happen.
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Post by parfive on Apr 17, 2021 23:22:14 GMT -5
Nothing like leading a story on a North Carolina Walgreens f’up with a picture of a CVS Pharmacy.
That beaut compliments of the dopes at South Carolina’s WBTW News13.
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Post by stephan on Apr 18, 2021 1:30:59 GMT -5
Nothing like leading a story on a North Carolina Walgreens f’up with a picture of a CVS Pharmacy. That beaut compliments of the dopes at South Carolina’s WBTW News13. Yo know,... all those pharmacies look the same....
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Post by RickB on Apr 18, 2021 6:21:36 GMT -5
Pharmasses in this case.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,456
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 18, 2021 18:15:41 GMT -5
OK day after Moderna #2 officially sucked. Basically like a flu without the barfing. Chills, fever, bad muscle aches , headache. All better by day #2 after the shot though. Just feel a little fatigued but heck I'm old. I need a nap after I ride a horse.
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Post by stephan on Apr 19, 2021 0:14:13 GMT -5
OK day after Moderna #2 officially sucked. Basically like a flu without the barfing. Chills, fever, bad muscle aches , headache. All better by day #2 after the shot though. Just feel a little fatigued but heck I'm old. I need a nap after I ride a horse. Sorry to hear it. I bike-commuted the day of and after, and I was pretty much OK. That's always been my approach, post-vaccine: exercise and hydrate, and it seems to work. I was pretty tired, still and a little sore, but not much else, unless you count some really weird dreams. Soon I'll get to test my theory on the shingles vaccine. Between the ages of 6 and 20, I was exposed to chickenpox at least 5 or 6 times, and never caught it, so I got that vaccine, but I'm now (a little past) due for the shingles. I've heard that one is fun, too.
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Post by RickB on Apr 19, 2021 9:17:12 GMT -5
OK day after Moderna #2 officially sucked. Basically like a flu without the barfing. Chills, fever, bad muscle aches , headache. All better by day #2 after the shot though. Just feel a little fatigued but heck I'm old. I need a nap after I ride a horse. Sorry to hear it. I bike-commuted the day of and after, and I was pretty much OK. That's always been my approach, post-vaccine: exercise and hydrate, and it seems to work. I was pretty tired, still and a little sore, but not much else, unless you count some really weird dreams. Soon I'll get to test my theory on the shingles vaccine. Between the ages of 6 and 20, I was exposed to chickenpox at least 5 or 6 times, and never caught it, so I got that vaccine, but I'm now (a little past) due for the shingles. I've heard that one is fun, too. I had the old shingles shot many years ago. Now they have a two-parter and I got both of those a few years back. Only problem with those three was the typical arm soreness for a short period of time.
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Post by miket on Apr 19, 2021 9:36:02 GMT -5
OK day after Moderna #2 officially sucked. Basically like a flu without the barfing. Chills, fever, bad muscle aches , headache. All better by day #2 after the shot though. Just feel a little fatigued but heck I'm old. I need a nap after I ride a horse. So strange how it affects people differently. My wife got the second shot and all she had was a sore arm. My daughter who's 18 had a sore arm, chills and fever, muscle aches and a headache the next day and had to miss school. She was also better the second day.
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Post by stephan on Apr 19, 2021 13:57:30 GMT -5
OK day after Moderna #2 officially sucked. Basically like a flu without the barfing. Chills, fever, bad muscle aches , headache. All better by day #2 after the shot though. Just feel a little fatigued but heck I'm old. I need a nap after I ride a horse. So strange how it affects people differently. My wife got the second shot and all she had was a sore arm. My daughter who's 18 had a sore arm, chills and fever, muscle aches and a headache the next day and had to miss school. She was also better the second day.
The immune system is a strange and wonderful thing.
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Post by 1dave on Apr 20, 2021 5:56:52 GMT -5
Where we got the first Moderna shot they gave us a little flyer with our vaccination card. After reading the flyer it became very clear that all of us getting these new shots are basically just a large experimental test group. Due to the emergency, initial testing was really sped up and we really know nothing about possible long term effects. We are both scientists so believe in vaccination and we are both fairly old so "long term" side effects not so much of an issue *L*. However having the chance to live a more regular life is an attractive reward for taking our chances so what the heck. We got both of ours. I was surprised that the first day it was unnoticeable, but that left arm at the shoulder was sore for a week. The second shot only for a day. But now, several months later the arm feels paralyzed if I sleep on it. I wake up and it functions, but does not have full range. It may be just getting old . . . Thanks stephan !
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,456
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 20, 2021 8:04:47 GMT -5
Both my folks had shingles and it was awful so I got the shots when available. The #2 shot from the newer shingles series was a bit rough but nothing like as bad as Moderna #2.
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Post by RickB on Apr 20, 2021 8:29:10 GMT -5
Where we got the first Moderna shot they gave us a little flyer with our vaccination card. After reading the flyer it became very clear that all of us getting these new shots are basically just a large experimental test group. Due to the emergency, initial testing was really sped up and we really know nothing about possible long term effects. We are both scientists so believe in vaccination and we are both fairly old so "long term" side effects not so much of an issue *L*. However having the chance to live a more regular life is an attractive reward for taking our chances so what the heck. We got both of ours. I was surprised that the first day it was unnoticeable, but that left arm at the shoulder was sore for a week. The second shot only for a day. But now, several months later the arm feels paralyzed if I sleep on it. I wake up and it functions, but does not have full range. It may be just getting old . . . 1dave that is the early stage of mineralization leading to fossilification.
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