Ethics Question on Gifted Rocks and Related

[fernwood]

Have an ethical question.

I am a member of two groups who gift anything rock related to others. Both groups have a focus on those who have disabilities/challenges that prevent them from finding rocks on their own.

Both groups have members who just receive from others, Just gift to others or do both.



A member in one of the groups has been receiving a lot. She is not disabled, but her adult son is.

She recently posted that she would be “getting rid of” some of the rocks that were sent for her son. That all rocks sent to him now are filling 3 rooms. She needs to get the rocks out of there.

Note that she is still asking for rocks for him.

She gave group members a heads up that she will be selling many of the rocks gifted for him.



Neither group had a policy on what can be done with gifted rocks/items, but one now has.

Nothing you are given can be sold. If you are gifted a rock, slab it, trim it and make a cabochon, it is for your use only.



I am a member of several local FB groups who provide assistance to others in need. One has a policy if you try to sell anything gifted to you, you will be banned. The other is now considering this.



Am wondering. If you give someone something, do you feel they should keep it for themselves only? Even if they take a rock, slab it, cab it, wrap it?

Or, if you gave it to them on the pretense that it would be used for a specific purpose and they use it for something different?

I have obtained lots of rocks, slabs, jewelry findings and preforms for several groups I am admin with. Some for the children’s classes I teach on rockhounding.

Everything I am given for these groups was designated to go to members of the groups.

Everything for the children’s rockhounding classes was to be used for that.



I have received some items from members of this group who said it was fine for me to sell some as is or use to make jewelry/other things.

Other members have said I was not to sell anything or use the items they sent me to make items and sell them.



If you give someone on RTH something, what are your expectations for what you gave them?

If you traded items with them, what are your expectations?



I appreciate and respect the opinions of RTH members and am being asked by the main admins of some groups I am also a moderator/Admin of for guidance.



If I gift someone something, I would appreciate it that my gift would not be sold. If I trade for something, then whatever the person does with it is fine with me.





Thank you.

[rmf]

fernwood I had a long conversation with my mother on this subject. When she was in the nursing home she would gift and take back and regift. I made her give and that was it once it has been given (I did not care to whom) that was it, she could not ask for it back. A gift is a gift, no strings attached.

That said, an organization is a bit different. And the motivation of an organization is for a specific purpose. There are many people that are takers and just like the free stuff. If something was given and they want to sell it that is too bad it was given(assumes before rules). Now if the rules before the gift are, regift only not sell then if they take an "encumbered" gift that is on them. If they have too much they should not get more. Then there is the question of who is going to track who does what with a gift. I am not keeping track of what someone does with a gift. Not worth my time, someone else might care.

I would just drop them from the list of eligible recipients.

[stardiamond]

A gift is a gift. A trade is a secret Santa. At least she is being open about what she was doing and the members should be aware of her policy. I can see a benefit for her son from getting the rocks even though they aren't being worked on. Getting a box of anything interesting and looking at the stuff has benefits. What should happen is that the rocks should be regifted, but there is shipping cost involved. I have never been a fan of box passes.

[MsAli]

My 2 cents

If you are gifted something regardless of what that is, then it is yours to do with as you see fit

If the admins of the groups have issues with this person, then it is their responsibility to set rules stating otherwise or ban the member from the group

As far as you being told not to sell or make things from items given to you then that is not a "gift" and honestly I can't see anyone on here saying that to you and if they did, then maybe you need to ask them the reason for that.

I know me personally have been given generously and and I still have a majority of it and probably always will. Some other stuff I've used to make jewelry and or sold slabs from. This in turn goes back into me buying more rocks. And I've also paid it forward and will always try to continue to do so.
I even had one member ask for items back and it was returned. But not once has anyone told me not to sell or make items from the material sent to me.

[vegasjames]

In my opinion it depends. If a trade, then you can do whatever you want with the trade. A trade is an exchange of something just like when you buy you are exchanging money for the item.

On the other hand, I am also a member of one of these groups for people who are disabled. When gifting them stone, it is for their collection, not to sell. If they are selling the stones then it makes it appear that they are conning people with a disability to get rocks for free to open a rock sales site. I have seen thins various times where people claimed they had kids, they could not get out to collect, etc. and it turned out to all be a lie just to get free rocks to sell. This is why I am so careful about sending out rocks for people for free or even in exchange for postage cost because there are people out there scamming. Now, I check their Facebook site and see if they have pics of their disabled kids, or if they claim they are disabled are they posting pics of hiking, etc.

As for this case, it sounds wrong on various levels. If she received that much rock that it has become overwhelming then why is she still asking for more when there are so many other people who have not received packages and would love to give one? Why is she selling stones gifted to her son, and not her? If the amount of rocks she received is so overwhelming then stop asking for more, and pay it forward by sending out packages to others in need or donate some of the stones to schools for science or craft classes or maybe to craft groups in retirement homes. Bottom line is the stones were donated on the premise to make her disabled son happy by building a collection, not for her to sell and make a profit off of. Just the fact that she is claiming she has received too many rocks that she has to get rid of some while asking people to send even more makes it appear as a complete scam to make money off of caring people's generosity.

[Sabre52]

IMHO I'd think of it in the same light as when you give someone a gift of money or any other gift. You don't expect to get it back and it's theirs to do with as they like. If you don't like what they do with it, don't give them another gift. That's your option.

[vegasjames]

Apr 26, 2022 19:50:39 GMT -5 Sabre52 said:

IMHO I'd think of it in the same light as when you give someone a gift of money or any other gift. You don't expect to get it back and it's theirs to do with as they like. If you don't like what they do with it, don't give them another gift. That's your option.

I am going to play Devil's advocate here for a second.

So what if this gift was given on the basis of false pretenses? That is what it sounds like was going on in this case.  The lady claimed they were for her disabled son, not for her to sell. She then claimed she received too many rocks for her son, again not for her, and so she has to sell off part of the collection. She does not have to sell them, she can regift them to people who are legitimately looking for donations for their disabled children , for themselves because for whatever health issue they cannot get back out or they lost a collection in a fire or some other event. Instead, she is choosing to sell rocks given to her son, not her, while claiming they got too many donations while at the same time asking for more donations. Sounds like a scam to me, and she needs to be reported to the group moderators.

I have been scammed by people like this several times and so now I am much more reluctant to participate in sending out donations to people with stories that cannot be confirmed. These scammers are ruining a great thing for a lot of people who could really use these donations to help lift them up.

If you are so overwhelmed by donations that you do not have room you do not sell the donations that do not belong to you to make room for more donations. You post something like "thank you for all of the caring people kind enough to send rocks to my son to help cheer him up, but we have already received more than we can use. Instead of sending us more rocks we do not have room for, please help fulfill other people's wishes and make their day. Thank you everyone."

[hummingbirdstones]

I agree with Ali, James and Mel.

If you give someone something as a gift, it's theirs to do with what they wish.

If you are in a group like you're in make a blanket rule.  Anyone abusing the privilege of receiving rocks from other people will banned from the group at the discretion of admin. 

As an aside, if you ask for something for a specific purpose, you should use it for that specific purpose unless the sender says otherwise.  That's just common sense and being a good person.  Your the one who has to live your own conscience.  Karma.

[rockjunquie]

A couple of things- like others have said, a gift is a gift, but that's not REALLY what SHE got. She accepted some free rocks under the pretense that they were for her son. He should do as he sees fit, as they are his. (He should GIVE them away.) I also agree with vegasjames. She is ruining it for others. And, like hummingbirdstones says---- Bad Karma, Baby!

[stardiamond]

I guess I did a poor job of making the point that there is enjoyment opening a box and looking at the contents. There is enjoyment in just getting a box of interesting stuff.

forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/98807/risk-buy-picture

People get enjoyment putting a rock in a saw and finding what is inside. I enjoy unpacking an order or rough or slabs to see how it compared with the listing pictures.

[dshanpnw]

Hello fernwood and everyone else, I'm very glad knowing there are groups helping folks that need it. I was hoping there was such a group of people doing that. I'd be happy to gift rocks and expect nothing in return, and I think they can do what they want with it, but if they are not really eligible participants then it defeats the whole purpose. It's a pretty tough question. I guess there has to be rules set by the groups. It's unfortunate that there would be dishonest participants. It just isn't right to abuse the good intentions of a charitable group. I hope she is a one off. Thank you for getting rocks to people less fortunate.

[lparsons]

I personally would feel greedy to have accepted so many gifted rocks that I didn’t have room to store them. She should thank everyone but decline any more rock gifts. I think she should donate the excess, or gift them to someone else for just the cost of postage. Imo, for her to accept these gifts supposedly for her son and then sell them looks like a scam to me.

[fernwood]

Apr 26, 2022 22:07:14 GMT -5 vegasjames said:

Apr 26, 2022 19:50:39 GMT -5 Sabre52 said:

IMHO I'd think of it in the same light as when you give someone a gift of money or any other gift. You don't expect to get it back and it's theirs to do with as they like. If you don't like what they do with it, don't give them another gift. That's your option.

I am going to play Devil's advocate here for a second.

So what if this gift was given on the basis of false pretenses? That is what it sounds like was going on in this case.  The lady claimed they were for her disabled son, not for her to sell. She then claimed she received too many rocks for her son, again not for her, and so she has to sell off part of the collection. She does not have to sell them, she can regift them to people who are legitimately looking for donations for their disabled children , for themselves because for whatever health issue they cannot get back out or they lost a collection in a fire or some other event. Instead, she is choosing to sell rocks given to her son, not her, while claiming they got too many donations while at the same time asking for more donations. Sounds like a scam to me, and she needs to be reported to the group moderators.

I have been scammed by people like this several times and so now I am much more reluctant to participate in sending out donations to people with stories that cannot be confirmed. These scammers are ruining a great thing for a lot of people who could really use these donations to help lift them up.

If you are so overwhelmed by donations that you do not have room you do not sell the donations that do not belong to you to make room for more donations. You post something like "thank you for all of the caring people kind enough to send rocks to my son to help cheer him up, but we have already received more than we can use. Instead of sending us more rocks we do not have room for, please help fulfill other people's wishes and make their day. Thank you everyone."

I don't think it was on false pretenses to begin with.
She received many rocks.
Her and her son caregivers made a nice display with rocks from around the world.
Her son has had huge medical expenses recently.  

I was asked to ost this here by several who sent her rocks and saw she was selling some rocks.  Some of these were crystal formations, fossils, etc.  Some people sent items with some value for her son.  Value of $50.00+ for many items.  They did it to bring joy to her son.  Not to pay for his medical bills.  

She has been removed from one group I am involved with because of this.  

I appreciate everyones comments.  Will pass them on to others who she is asking for rocks from.  

[hummingbirdstones]

Perhaps she should set up a Go Fund Me page or something if she is having trouble paying for her son's medical bills instead of asking for rocks.  If people just donated the amount the postage would cost, she'd probably do alright.

I don't know her and I don't know her circumstances, but just reading about it gives me a bad taste in my mouth.

[vegasjames]

Apr 28, 2022 8:13:24 GMT -5 fernwood said:

Apr 26, 2022 22:07:14 GMT -5 vegasjames said:

I am going to play Devil's advocate here for a second.

So what if this gift was given on the basis of false pretenses? That is what it sounds like was going on in this case.  The lady claimed they were for her disabled son, not for her to sell. She then claimed she received too many rocks for her son, again not for her, and so she has to sell off part of the collection. She does not have to sell them, she can regift them to people who are legitimately looking for donations for their disabled children , for themselves because for whatever health issue they cannot get back out or they lost a collection in a fire or some other event. Instead, she is choosing to sell rocks given to her son, not her, while claiming they got too many donations while at the same time asking for more donations. Sounds like a scam to me, and she needs to be reported to the group moderators.

I have been scammed by people like this several times and so now I am much more reluctant to participate in sending out donations to people with stories that cannot be confirmed. These scammers are ruining a great thing for a lot of people who could really use these donations to help lift them up.

If you are so overwhelmed by donations that you do not have room you do not sell the donations that do not belong to you to make room for more donations. You post something like "thank you for all of the caring people kind enough to send rocks to my son to help cheer him up, but we have already received more than we can use. Instead of sending us more rocks we do not have room for, please help fulfill other people's wishes and make their day. Thank you everyone."

I don't think it was on false pretenses to begin with.
She received many rocks.
Her and her son caregivers made a nice display with rocks from around the world.
Her son has had huge medical expenses recently.  

I was asked to ost this here by several who sent her rocks and saw she was selling some rocks.  Some of these were crystal formations, fossils, etc.  Some people sent items with some value for her son.  Value of $50.00+ for many items.  They did it to bring joy to her son.  Not to pay for his medical bills.  

She has been removed from one group I am involved with because of this.  

I appreciate everyones comments.  Will pass them on to others who she is asking for rocks from.  

The reason I see it as false pretenses is because she asked for the stones for her son for his collection, not to sell. She is selling them even though they are not hers, they are her sons. And also because she said that even though she got too many rocks that she has to get rid of some that she is still asking for more. If you are that overwhelmed that you do not have room for what you got and you have to get rid of some, you do not ask for more. You thank those that helped out and tell people if they still want to spread joy, there are plenty of others that would love to be blessed like you blessed us. Thank you all.

[fernwood]

I agree. This would be the best way to handle too many gifted rocks.

[CLErocks]

Just my 2 cents:: everyone here is assuming:
1. the son can make good decisions for himself.
2. The mother is maliciously “using” the system.

I don’t know these people. Both could be true. Neither could be true. But let’s just allow for the possibility the son can’t advocate for himself, and the mother, with everything she’s dealing with, or just through situation, isn’t the best decision maker either.

I find people rarely abuse systems as much as we assume they do.
Yes, there’s always someone who’ll ruin a good thing. But just maybe, just maybe…people aren’t quite as smart (now I just sound mean) or malicious as we conclude they are.

Or. I’m naïve. Again. Just my 2 cents.

[CLErocks]

Side note: I’m not saying because people have a disability, they can’t make decisions!! I work with an organization that gives away service dogs…so people with disabilities are different just as non-disabled people are different.
Also, I have close ties with the foster community and child protective services. And, well, it’s eye opening what people don’t know and need to be taught.

Apr 29, 2022 8:25:49 GMT -5 CLErocks said:

Just my 2 cents:: everyone here is assuming:
1. the son can make good decisions for himself.
2. The mother is maliciously “using” the system.

I don’t know these people. Both could be true. Neither could be true. But let’s just allow for the possibility the son can’t advocate for himself, and the mother, with everything she’s dealing with, or just through situation, isn’t the best decision maker either.

I find people rarely abuse systems as much as we assume they do.
Yes, there’s always someone who’ll ruin a good thing. But just maybe, just maybe…people aren’t quite as smart (now I just sound mean) or malicious as we conclude they are.

Or. I’m naïve. Again. Just my 2 cents.

[fernwood]

The son is total care. Has some cognitive challenges. He loves rocks.
He lives in an assisted apartment. 24 hour care givers. His mom lives elsewhere, but visits him often.

[hummingbirdstones]

Ok, let me get this straight.  The son is living in an assisted living apartment which most likely is rather small.  Mom lives in her house and has 3 rooms full of rocks she's received on behalf of her son, but  he's not there to see them.  The only time he sees anything anyone has sent to him is when mom brings them to his apartment.  He has probably not seen even 1/3 of what people have sent to him.

There's something terribly wrong with that scenario in my opinion.  I am not that forgiving of people who take advantage of other peoples good will and willingness to help.  But that's just me.