mikeinsjc
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2010
Posts: 329
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Post by mikeinsjc on Apr 17, 2011 11:42:31 GMT -5
I was at a guy's house last week who was selling some slabs, etc. He had a section of sandstone his father had chiseled out from somewhere in Utah probably forty years ago with a beautiful dinosaur footprint in it. I would love to add this baby to my collection, but not at the risk of doing time. I don't know the status of the land it was removed from. It seems I have read that "major" bone finds cannot be touched/removed from public lands (and maybe private?), but what about something like this footprint? Is it legal to possess?
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,681
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Post by Fossilman on Apr 17, 2011 12:06:16 GMT -5
Yes you can own it..............Different states,different laws....I know in ND,you can own it....
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chromenut
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since December 2009
Posts: 1,971
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Post by chromenut on Apr 17, 2011 14:24:55 GMT -5
Besides, be hard to trace it back, and tons of money spent to do so. You'd have to really PO somebody in the Feebs to get that kind of attention. Personally, I have all kinds of "questionable" specimens, I don't think any are from the US, so for me the one's I do have I'm not too worried about.
I've got pottery from Isreal, statues from South America, and collections from Saudi Arabia, Africa, Central and South America that I picked up while in the military. Stuff I stuck in my Alice pack or my rucksack and brought home. Not too sure if the stuff's not purely legal here or not, but really aren't all that concerned. Think of all the military personnel all over the world who drag all kinds of interesting things home. My step-father brought home literally tons of Nazi stuff from WWII, and I'm positive some of this stuff is not legal at all here in the states. Still, I couldn't care less of that, if the Feebs want to come collect it, well, knock themselves out! They should spend their time trying to catch terrorists and leave us simple collectors alone...lol
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Post by rockrookie on Apr 17, 2011 17:48:47 GMT -5
any pictures ?? --paul
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nuevomundo
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2010
Posts: 222
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Post by nuevomundo on Apr 17, 2011 20:18:08 GMT -5
Even if it was taken from a place where collecting is currently not allowed, it is still legal just so long as it was collected before the restrictions were in place. As Robin said, the only way someone is going to give you flak is if they can tie it to a specific place and time - a virtual impossibility in this case.
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,095
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Post by stefan on Apr 26, 2011 12:52:47 GMT -5
Most stuff collected on priviate land is ownable (legally that is).
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peachfront
fully equipped rock polisher
Stones have begun to speak, because an ear is there to hear them.
Member since August 2010
Posts: 1,745
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Post by peachfront on Apr 26, 2011 12:55:45 GMT -5
You don't have the right to receive stolen goods. You wouldn't do time, but you would forfeit the item if the authorities could determine that the property was stolen -- even though you were not the thief. You would not be compensated. Could they track down the land where the footprint was taken? Was there EVER a time that it was legal to chisel out a dinosaur footprint from that location? Science keeps moving on, and even if they can't prove where and when it came from today, who is to say they won't be able to prove it tomorrow? People and even museums are now having to return items stolen many generations ago. It isn't impossible that you could eventually get "tagged." Me, personally, I wouldn't buy an item that I suspected had been stolen, no matter how many generations in the past. And not just because I would be afraid of having to forfeit the item, but also because you are providing an economic incentive to other guys with a garage and a story to claim their dads are the ones who stole the item 40 years ago. Theft is theft. And you are receiving a stolen item today, not 40 years ago -- *their* crime may be past the statute of limitations, but you just committed your crime *today*. So you put yourself in a bad spot, especially if it turns out to be a "sting" operation.
40 years ago was 1971. We are not talking about a shell-shocked war veteran who has been under fire letting his judgement slip and taking home a few souvenirs. We are talking about someone in a time of peace and plenty of jobs who apparently made a choice that it's OK to steal from public lands...or at least that's what you're hinting?
I vote don't do it, although it may be too late for my opinion to matter.
As a general rule, though, nothing good comes from buying something in a back room from a guy with a story. Most likely-- the fine dinosaur footprint is a fake and you've harmed no one but yourself. If it was genuine, I doubt he'd be selling it out of his house with a story about his Dad. But it's still bad to encourage this kind of market. In my opinion.
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Post by johnjsgems on Apr 26, 2011 14:20:55 GMT -5
I think if he will document the fact it was collected 40 years ago, etc. you would be OK.
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playin4funami
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since March 2011
Posts: 87
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Post by playin4funami on Apr 26, 2011 18:40:02 GMT -5
really I don't think anyone is too concerned about it nowadays, unless you went out and grabbed it from a state sponsored dig or something. between drug problems, terrorists, and all the other bs in oour world today I doubt that there are any feds doing door to door searches for fossils that you are not supposed to have, unless it was plainly taken from an illegal site and someone saw it happen and pointed you out you should be more than in the clear. Lots is going to depend on who you show it to, if you are parading state or government palentologists through to veiw it I wouldn't see the problem, the goverment guys could get jealous and start some crap though if they wanted to be a-holes. trying to claim it for research,etc.
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mikeinsjc
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2010
Posts: 329
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Post by mikeinsjc on Apr 26, 2011 20:16:46 GMT -5
I agree with peachfront- if you inherit a machine gun from your father, that doesn't mean you can legally own it. Which brings me back to my original question. As I understand the law, even if you find a t-rex skeleton on your own property, it is of significant scientific value and you don't have the right to do with it as you please. What about this footprint? Is it considered in the same class? If a public land allows one to collect petrified wood (for non-commercial purposes), would taking a footprint be considered similar? The guy cut it out of the rock with a skilsaw, diamond blade and a portable generator. It doesn't both me how he got it out anymore than a guy felling a tree on public land with a chainsaw for firewood. Just want to know if it's legal to own.
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Post by johnjsgems on Apr 26, 2011 20:59:36 GMT -5
The laws have changed over the years. From no restrictions to vertabrate fossils belong to the US government to anything dino related including copralite, footprints, eggs, etc. This is all on BLM or other gov't controlled land. I'm not sure about private lands. I got to visit "Sue" at the Field Museum. Interesting story on who owns it. It is a T-rex skeleton found by a scientist digging with permission from an Indian tribe on Government leased grazing land. U.S. won.
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rockhound97058
freely admits to licking rocks
Thundereggs - Oregons Official State Rock!
Member since January 2006
Posts: 760
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Post by rockhound97058 on Apr 26, 2011 22:29:47 GMT -5
I think this really had to do with each state's law. From my understanding if it was found on private property you can legally keep it. I know federal lands are a big NO-NO :nono: if you find vertabrate fossils.
Best thing to do is keep your mouth shut and enjoy it. What they don't know don't hurt them. ;D
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MikeS
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2009
Posts: 1,081
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Post by MikeS on Apr 27, 2011 17:16:49 GMT -5
Hmmm...I think some of the analogies here are a bit extreme for what we are talking about here... First, we are not talking about something that is inherintley illegal for the average Joe to own like a machine gun. Fossil ownership, both vertabrate and invertebrate, is perfectly legal in the United States. The legal issues come in on where the fossil was collected, and, if found on public land, what type of fossil it is. As stated above, collecting vertebrate fossils on Federal land is prohibited unless you have a permit to do so. It is legal to collect "reasonable amounts" of invertebrate and plant fossils on Federal land, but, believe it or not, it is ILLEGAL to sell ANY fossil collected on Federal land! This includes petrified wood collected on Federal land as well! The grey area here is wether or not a dinosaur track would be considered a vertebrate fossil, and according to the BLM, tracks fall into that category, making them illeagal to collect on federal land. As far as state lands go...almost every state in the US requires a permit to collect vertebrate fossils on state lands, and most of them have a ban on the sale of any fossil collected on public land unless you have a permit to do so. Utah is like this...so unless he can verify that the fossil was legally collected from private land, it isn't legal to sell.
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