Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
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Post by Sabre52 on Feb 6, 2014 13:55:07 GMT -5
Howdy folks, Just a pic of some of my recent pickups from our horse pasture. The one missing just the tip was kicked out of the ground by Flint when I was taking him out the gate last week. All these are fairly large and are spear or dart points not arrowheads and all the flint comes from the flint quarry we own on the hill across the road. It's actually darker in color than the pic which is a bit overexposed...Mel
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Post by 1dave on Feb 6, 2014 14:24:08 GMT -5
The chippers were in for "Gett'er done," not perfection. What good was perfection if the stone broke on the first shot hitting a bigger rock?
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,463
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Post by Sabre52 on Feb 6, 2014 15:56:54 GMT -5
*L* Yeah that and having a 1200# horse or a 1500# longhorn step on them don't do the points any good neither. Pasture used to be plowed too. Back in Commiefornia, one of my favorite artifact hunting sites that had lots of perfect points at one time had all been plowed over and broken up......Mel
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Post by 1dave on Feb 6, 2014 16:29:01 GMT -5
A lot better to have them destroyed than have some citizen picking them up and becoming a criminal.
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
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Post by Sabre52 on Feb 6, 2014 16:44:40 GMT -5
Dave, Only a crime on Government land. OK on private property with permission. In fact,in Texas the hobby is huge and fee digs are a big business. I kind of disagree with you in that, if taken legally, I think it's better to have the stuff preserved in private collections than to just have it broken up over time. Same with fossils some of which are very perishable out in the elements. Better collected and preserved rather than destroyed by erosion by the elements. Most our local fossils are steinkerns and very ephemeral by nature.....Mel
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Feb 7, 2014 11:31:29 GMT -5
Nice finds Mel......................Here in Oregon we can pick artifacts up if laying on the ground,but we can't dig for them... Montana we could do both,but with fossils,we could take home an invertebrate fossil and dino bone,if the bone wasn't in a parcial or total frame or structure... Oregon you have to have a permit to collect vertebra bones,like dino and whale.... I too,would rather see them in a private collection instead of being destroyed or weathered away by nature!
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Post by pghram on Feb 7, 2014 12:49:43 GMT -5
Nice finds.
Rich
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elementary
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2006
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Post by elementary on Feb 8, 2014 13:34:30 GMT -5
My only concern about opening up the collecting to the public openly is the danger of what happens to our dig sites. With ebay and other similar selling points, I fear the openness of collecting and the desire to make a profit would lead to some bad combinations.
I don't personally mind collecting, especially when the material is randomly scattered (not a village site). If it does open up, I'd like to see the collecting done through a permit system tied through the local historical society or museum. You keep what you find, but you allow them a look. That way if there is something of importance, there's a chance for it to be examined. It's not perfect, but I don't see good coming from unfettered private collecting.
I believe it was Mel, during one of our conversations, who pointed out that much of the Civil War knowledge regarding uniforms and other materials comes from hardcore collectors who research what they find and often publish it for others.
In England, people who find treasure troves present to the finds to the government who reimburses them the value of the find. Personally, I've love to have the coins.
The other issue I have is that even though you (as the collector) know where you found your material, as soon as you pass, unless you have a good catalogue system, that information is going to be lost when your relatives divide up your lot or sell it off. I just went to an estate sale where the woman had accumulated a nice pre-columbian collection from her years of travel and work as an archeologist. She died. Her family didn't want any of it and hired an estate sale company to sell it off. They didn't even look at her notes (which I received along with her slides - some of which I've posted a while back). They sold it piecemeal. All of it is now scattered without identifying tags.
The Agate Index partially came about to help people identify rocks that have lost their known identity because they came from rockpiles in people's backyards.
I get collecting. What I also know is that some people can't handle the obsession that collecting represents (like dragons with their hoards) or abuse it for financial gain.
(legal disclaimer - My wife is an archeologist.)
Lowell
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
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Post by Sabre52 on Feb 8, 2014 17:35:29 GMT -5
You know, since I took up knapping a bit and have been to a few Texas knap-ins, the whole artifact collecting thing does not seem as interesting to me. I still pick up stuff occasionally on my hikes but usually give it to the ranch historical group for display or to the ranch kids. The stuff produced at the knap-ins is for the most part prettier and more nicely made than that of our Amerinds. One of my most prized pieces is a beautiful point knapped for me by Harley ( agatemaggot) from our own forum. It's a true work of art in my favorite agate, crazy lace. I think if I were to collect seriously, I'd stick to modern made stuff in fancy agates and jaspers, so it would accent my agate and jasper obsession.
Lowell, I hear you about the loss of identity on collected stuff. All my finds were cataloged when I found them, and of course, I managed to lose my catalog somehow even before our Texas move. I remember where I found everything but have never gotten around to making a new catalog. Lowell's archeologist wife, by the way, is a very nice lady. I gave her most my archeology books when I moved out here to Texas as I figured, she'd get more use from them than me and anyway, most were California oriented.
Lowell is right about the commercialization of artifact collecting. As I said, commercial digging on private property here ( Texas is like 95% private) is a big business as is artifact collecting. They have huge shows that are mainly selling venues and you would not believe some of the prices. Since most of the digs are village sites, it is sad to see the loss of all the historical information. Maybe Texas has been well studied and so it's not such a big thing, but I still kind of have issues with collecting for profit.....Mel
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Post by 1dave on Feb 8, 2014 22:24:41 GMT -5
Dave, Only a crime on Government land. OK on private property with permission. In fact,in Texas the hobby is huge and fee digs are a big business. I kind of disagree with you in that, if taken legally, I think it's better to have the stuff preserved in private collections than to just have it broken up over time. Same with fossils some of which are very perishable out in the elements. Better collected and preserved rather than destroyed by erosion by the elements. Most our local fossils are steinkerns and very ephemeral by nature.....Mel Most laws are pure stupidity! Some professor who believes everyone else is stupid and doesn't know how to protect a find or document it gets the laws passed by clueless legislators. It is a travesty. Get people afraid to pick up something and it is usually lost forever. Yeah there are stupid people that will target practice on irreplaceable stuff, but laws aren't going to stop them.
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Feb 8, 2014 23:49:38 GMT -5
Dave, I appreciated your sarcastic humor about making citizens criminals. I love pithy sarcasm. But I think both you and Mel have good points. There's a fine line. One of my passions is trying to understand how humans spread around the globe, especially to the Americas. One of the ways to do that is to preserve archaeological finds in context so professionals can use their skills to piece together all the clues that ancient sites and artifacts can yield.
I know archaeology is under-funded and many of the sites and relics would simply be lost if amateurs didn't collect stuff. But many pot-hunters are only interested in money(I've known a few) and they've raped and destroyed truly important sites just to put a few bucks into their pockets. I also know that once a site is reported the government creates outrageous restrictions that put more "public" land under lock and key. I don't know the answer. But I hate to see our collective history being destroyed just so someone can generate beer money.
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Post by 1dave on Feb 9, 2014 7:48:57 GMT -5
gemfeller, Yes, it is a balancing act, but don't forget erosion is destroying those sites too. For several years I tried to document how fast the "Moqui Marbles" were being eroded from the Navajo Sandstone in Big Spencer Flat and down to the bottom of Lake Powell -about 2 ft./year. That is a lot. It would take a huge commercial venture to keep up with nature. IMO most of what we know in all fields came from "rank amateurs" sharing their finds. When the "professionals" tick them off, their new discoveries dwindle down pretty fast.
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Feb 10, 2014 0:37:32 GMT -5
Nobody can keep up with nature. Erosion rules: the Appalachians were once higher than the Rockies and the recent images posted here about big boulders tumbling down onto farmhouses simply illustrates human hubris vs. inescapable geological reality.
My argument wasn't against responsible amateurs, only those who destroy irreplaceable sites for money, ego or out of sheer ignorance. I've known several "professional" phonies as well, and the name of at least one fund-raising, publicity-seeking scientific huckster would surprise most people.
The government may be worse. It was a "rank amateur" who discovered the remains Kenniwick Man on the banks of the Columbia River. When government -- and politics -- got involved, scientific knowledge was lost just as surely as erosion would have eventually destroyed it.
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Post by tandl on Feb 10, 2014 11:40:47 GMT -5
Cool finds
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