rykk
spending too much on rocks
Member since September 2011
Posts: 428
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Post by rykk on Feb 28, 2014 1:43:00 GMT -5
Hi, all. Ok, so I saw in a thread a while back that one guy suggested adding water to a bucket of sludge to bring the oil to the top. I thought to myself, "duh! Oil floats on water - shoulda thought of that myself!"
So, at my last saw clean out about 3-4 months ago, I set a bucket half or more full of snot in the driveway and added water with a garden hose. I would look at it every now and then and think for a bit of a smart way to pour off the oil and, as nothing obvious came to my underclocked single core pre-Pentuim brain, would just forget about it. Well, it's trying to become Spring here in Florida (which I hate because that means another 10 months of 130 degree garage temps!) and there's pollen all over everything, including the bucket of oil-water. Figured I'd best see what I could pull out since I was about to suck out my saw and wanted to reclaim as much oil as I could. Dumped out about 1/4 of it but then noticed that the remainder seemed kinda thin for mineral oil and stopped. I poured what I'd got into a bucket 3/4 full of already reclaimed mineral oil. I then started filtering the oil through a sheet into 1gal plastic bottles so's I could figure out how much new oil to buy.
Question 1 - Oil or Water? Anyhow - the fluid in the outside bucket was super clear other than the film of oak leaves and pollen that I skimmed off. So clear that I couldn't really tell where the oil ended and the water started. Does anyone know of an easy way to tell? I think I remember from school that you can put copper sulfate into water and it turns blue but don't know where to get any locally off hand.
Question2 - Or Both??? Anyhow, I went back to my filtering process and noticed that there seemed to be a cloudy/milky layer not far under the surface of the remaining oil. Turns out that it is a layer of "emulsified" oil and water and under that it's water. It was the portion I'd added from the outside bucket, I think.. Anybody know of an efficient way to filter the water out of the emulsified mixture? I've heard of boiling the water out but that sounds a bit dangerous to do on the stove, though mineral oil's boiling point is way up at 310F and the flashpoint is 355F. And, did I maybe just leave the oil and water in the bucket too long? Maybe just a day or so would have been better?
This *seems* like a great way to reclaim the maximum amount of oil if I can figure out the best way. I found that adding salt separates the two fluids even better. It's just that so much of the oil is trapped in the emulsified layer - maybe from sitting too long? Thanks, Rick
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blackout5783
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 248
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Post by blackout5783 on Feb 28, 2014 9:08:47 GMT -5
If there isn't too much of the emulsion, you can try pouring it into a gallon milk jug and freezing/thawing for a few cycles. That usually works decently well to break an emulsion. The other thing to try would be calcium chloride (ice melter). If you add enough it won't dissolve in the water and will act like a chemical sponge to pull the water out of the oil. Anhydrous magnesium sulfate (not epsom salts, that's the hydrate) works best for pulling water out of emulsions/suspensions, but that's harder to find and more expensive.
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Post by orrum on Feb 28, 2014 9:31:50 GMT -5
For the furure build a simple oil water separator. As you stated water is under the oil so put a barrier across the container sticking above the surface but it has a crack between the bottom of the separator and the bottom of the container. The oil will push the water thtu the crack, an inch will be enough and there will be very little water in the bottom of the oil side of the container. The wster side needs a drain up high so as you add the mix you can drain the water off. We used these in the petroleum home delivery business to reclaim spilled fuel on our truck loading pad. Remeber that other than the crack in the bottom you must have a water tight seal on the sides of the barrier. Hopes this makes sense, it will work. Pump the oil out with a siphon but be sure to have a L on the notyom of the siphon so you dont create a vortex and suck water from below the end of the siphon.
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rockpowell
having dreams about rocks
Have been rock hunting most of my life, love cutting rocks, have tons of slabs, just haven't posted
Member since February 2013
Posts: 73
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Post by rockpowell on Feb 28, 2014 9:35:03 GMT -5
Hi, all. Ok, so I saw in a thread a while back that one guy suggested adding water to a bucket of sludge to bring the oil to the top. I thought to myself, "duh! Oil floats on water - shoulda thought of that myself!" So, at my last saw clean out about 3-4 months ago, I set a bucket half or more full of snot in the driveway and added water with a garden hose. I would look at it every now and then and think for a bit of a smart way to pour off the oil and, as nothing obvious came to my underclocked single core pre-Pentuim brain, would just forget about it. Well, it's trying to become Spring here in Florida (which I hate because that means another 10 months of 130 degree garage temps!) and there's pollen all over everything, including the bucket of oil-water. Figured I'd best see what I could pull out since I was about to suck out my saw and wanted to reclaim as much oil as I could. Dumped out about 1/4 of it but then noticed that the remainder seemed kinda thin for mineral oil and stopped. I poured what I'd got into a bucket 3/4 full of already reclaimed mineral oil. I then started filtering the oil through a sheet into 1gal plastic bottles so's I could figure out how much new oil to buy. Question 1 - Oil or Water?Anyhow - the fluid in the outside bucket was super clear other than the film of oak leaves and pollen that I skimmed off. So clear that I couldn't really tell where the oil ended and the water started. Does anyone know of an easy way to tell? I think I remember from school that you can put copper sulfate into water and it turns blue but don't know where to get any locally off hand. Question2 - Or Both???Anyhow, I went back to my filtering process and noticed that there seemed to be a cloudy/milky layer not far under the surface of the remaining oil. Turns out that it is a layer of "emulsified" oil and water and under that it's water. It was the portion I'd added from the outside bucket, I think.. Anybody know of an efficient way to filter the water out of the emulsified mixture? I've heard of boiling the water out but that sounds a bit dangerous to do on the stove, though mineral oil's boiling point is way up at 310F and the flashpoint is 355F. And, did I maybe just leave the oil and water in the bucket too long? Maybe just a day or so would have been better? This *seems* like a great way to reclaim the maximum amount of oil if I can figure out the best way. I found that adding salt separates the two fluids even better. It's just that so much of the oil is trapped in the emulsified layer - maybe from sitting too long? Thanks, Rick JUST pour last of the water and oil in a clear plastic 1 gal jug ( old vinegar bottle ) works for me,it might help let it set for a day or so for more separation them place it in your freezer and freeze hard for a day or so, then pour the cold oil back in to your saw and the water will be ice. Ah! you knew that, found this out by leaving the lid of the oil bucket and it rained ( rain water works faster than tap water) then it froze that night. buried the sludge in a deep hole in the back yard.
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Post by phil on Feb 28, 2014 13:19:28 GMT -5
Freeze it. The water will freeze but the oil won't. As far as telling where the oil stops and the water begins.... use food coloring! The water will turn color, but the oil won't.
To get the maximum oil from the sludge the fastest, use a paint stirrer. The kind you chuck in your drill. Mix it all up very well, then let it sit. Bingo, the dirt goes to the bottom first, then water settles on top, with the oil at the very top. This way gets ALL the oil released from the sludge and if you're doing a big saw, can make quite a difference.
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Post by johnjsgems on Mar 1, 2014 14:55:28 GMT -5
I put the sludge in a covered bucket and pour off the oil that rises to the top. It is a passive method and can take a long time but you would be surprised how much oil rises to top over time. When the oil stops rising I put the lid on and deposit it in the dumpster. Some areas you can take the sludge to the hazardous materials recycling center.
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rykk
spending too much on rocks
Member since September 2011
Posts: 428
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Post by rykk on Mar 2, 2014 0:17:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice, y'all. I'll try stirring things up. It really seems like the water didn't go to the bottom as I'd expected in the bucket I added to 3 days ago. It appears that it is mixing with the mineral oil and is on top rather than the bottom. I'd sprayed 3-4 inches of water from a garden hose directly into the bottom of the bucket. The first 3 inches I've dipped out of the bucket looks like oil/water salad dressing with rounded bubbles of oil in it. This fluid went right through a high thread count sheet like nothing. As I dipped deeper, the fluid now just sits there and drips really slow. this is probably because it's all oil and also because it's where the dust layer started after 3-4 days of water being in the bucket. My hope had been to not only bring the oil to the top but also to leave just rock dust and water in the bottom. I'm pretty perplexed as to why the water stayed at the top or middle rather than go straight to the bottom of the bucket. Maybe water mixes better with mineral oil than petroleum oils?
The dust in the oil is the finest I've seen, so far, in my year of using my home built saw. Even after sheet filtering, it is somewhat opaque and has a red tinge to it and the stuff doesn't seem to be wanting to settle to the bottom of the bucket. This is oil without water added to the bucket. The only time I got a wide band of clear liquid was when I added water. I'd cut Polychrome, Noreena, and Lavic jasper in this cycle along with harder stuff. The Lavic was messier than grinding boulder opal! It clogs up a section of sheet in no time flat and I'm afraid I won't be able to reclaim any at all this time around. Bunching the edges of the sheet and compressing makes a lot more oil come out but also the dust comes with it. Probably multiple filterings would be required.
I'm, also, going to see if I can't sweet talk my wife into letting me put the one 1gal bottle of oil/water that I've got into the freezer overnight and see how that turns out. Thanks - any further tips would be quite welcome, Rick
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Post by johnjsgems on Mar 2, 2014 0:27:45 GMT -5
I filter through three layers of brown paper grocery bags. Those bags are in a 5 gallon bucket with holes in the bottom suspended over another 5 gal. bucket. All red jaspers will tint your oil but shouldn't hurt anything. Somebody once told me he cut howlite to remove the red from his oil but I don't know if it permanently discolored the howlite.
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rykk
spending too much on rocks
Member since September 2011
Posts: 428
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Post by rykk on Mar 2, 2014 0:44:43 GMT -5
Ok - A further development. I'd been filtering into a 1gal plastic jug since yesterday. The remnant I'd poured 3-4 inches off top the oil/water bucket into a smaller one now appears very clear and seems to have a thin sheen of oil on the top. I saw a piece of kitty litter fall into this smaller bucket and it dropped like a stone. Like the remnant is almost all water now. This and the amount I've filtered into the jug is approximately equal to the amount I'd added to the main bucket to begin with. The main bucket now appears to be all water and snot/dust - at least at the top.
The jug is clear-ish plastic and I can see definite lines of separation in it. The top half is dark and dusty. The bottom half of the jug is clear, except with a thin line of dust dividing it in half. Other than the line, all the dust is in the top half of the jug where I'd imagine it's all oil. I'm guessing the bottom quarter is all water and maybe the middle is a mixture/emulsion. What do y'all think? I definitely want to put this jug in the freezer and see what happens. It *looks* like the dust stays in the oil rather than falling and emigrating to the water.
And a question - Would it really be such a bad thing if there was some water in the oil as far as the operation of the saw? Water is a much better coolant than oil and there appears to be enough oil that rust might not be a problem. My sump is all wood and fiberglass. Rick
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rykk
spending too much on rocks
Member since September 2011
Posts: 428
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Post by rykk on Mar 2, 2014 0:50:40 GMT -5
Thanks, Lee. I had started using paper bags but found it too slow since I couldn't afford to buy a full 10gal of new oil the last times I cleaned the saw. This time I used some ebay $$ and got 10 gallons. I'd noticed when I tried the bags that the dust/snot would clog the paper pretty quickly and slowed filtration to less than a drip, so to speak. Do you end up swapping out the bags a lot when you filter? Thanks, Rick
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Post by Rockoonz on Mar 2, 2014 3:18:08 GMT -5
I don't change the bags at all, just wait. I only use one bag though, not perfectly clean but a lot faster. If you leave water in the oil it will become frothy white.
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Post by phil on Mar 2, 2014 12:19:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice, y'all. I'll try stirring things up. It really seems like the water didn't go to the bottom as I'd expected in the bucket I added to 3 days ago. It appears that it is mixing with the mineral oil and is on top rather than the bottom. I'd sprayed 3-4 inches of water from a garden hose directly into the bottom of the bucket. The first 3 inches I've dipped out of the bucket looks like oil/water salad dressing with rounded bubbles of oil in it. This fluid went right through a high thread count sheet like nothing. As I dipped deeper, the fluid now just sits there and drips really slow. this is probably because it's all oil and also because it's where the dust layer started after 3-4 days of water being in the bucket. My hope had been to not only bring the oil to the top but also to leave just rock dust and water in the bottom. I'm pretty perplexed as to why the water stayed at the top or middle rather than go straight to the bottom of the bucket. Maybe water mixes better with mineral oil than petroleum oils? The dust in the oil is the finest I've seen, so far, in my year of using my home built saw. Even after sheet filtering, it is somewhat opaque and has a red tinge to it and the stuff doesn't seem to be wanting to settle to the bottom of the bucket. This is oil without water added to the bucket. The only time I got a wide band of clear liquid was when I added water. I'd cut Polychrome, Noreena, and Lavic jasper in this cycle along with harder stuff. The Lavic was messier than grinding boulder opal! It clogs up a section of sheet in no time flat and I'm afraid I won't be able to reclaim any at all this time around. Bunching the edges of the sheet and compressing makes a lot more oil come out but also the dust comes with it. Probably multiple filterings would be required. I'm, also, going to see if I can't sweet talk my wife into letting me put the one 1gal bottle of oil/water that I've got into the freezer overnight and see how that turns out. Thanks - any further tips would be quite welcome, Rick How warm/cold is it where you live?Perhaps the oli/water isn't separating because it's too cold.. I know when it's cold here, it takes a LOT longer to filter an etc. Try the food coloring when you mix, that should help distinguish the oil from the water. Re; boulder opal dirty, I've successfully filtered it many times, but I only use paper grocery bags. Some brands bags filter fast, some slow... you've got to "shop" around..
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Post by phil on Mar 2, 2014 12:25:55 GMT -5
Ok - A further development. I'd been filtering into a 1gal plastic jug since yesterday. The remnant I'd poured 3-4 inches off top the oil/water bucket into a smaller one now appears very clear and seems to have a thin sheen of oil on the top. I saw a piece of kitty litter fall into this smaller bucket and it dropped like a stone. Like the remnant is almost all water now. This and the amount I've filtered into the jug is approximately equal to the amount I'd added to the main bucket to begin with. The main bucket now appears to be all water and snot/dust - at least at the top. The jug is clear-ish plastic and I can see definite lines of separation in it. The top half is dark and dusty. The bottom half of the jug is clear, except with a thin line of dust dividing it in half. Other than the line, all the dust is in the top half of the jug where I'd imagine it's all oil. I'm guessing the bottom quarter is all water and maybe the middle is a mixture/emulsion. What do y'all think? I definitely want to put this jug in the freezer and see what happens. It *looks* like the dust stays in the oil rather than falling and emigrating to the water. And a question - Would it really be such a bad thing if there was some water in the oil as far as the operation of the saw? Water is a much better coolant than oil and there appears to be enough oil that rust might not be a problem. My sump is all wood and fiberglass. Rick So, are you expecting immediate results when you're doing this? Forget it. It takes several days to filter when it's warm ,and much much longer when it's cold. You're using mineral oil, right? If yes, the dirt should settle out with the water and not stay in the oil. I've seen dirt settle to the bottom of my saw in a matter of hours, when it's warm, leaving clear oil on top. I never clean using water. Never. Just oil, as I don't want things to rust. Try to avoid water in the oil...
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Post by johnjsgems on Mar 2, 2014 23:52:34 GMT -5
For the record, water is not a better coolant than a good grade of mineral oil. The water aside from rusting vise carriage parts and blade can eventually penetrate the arbor bearings.
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rykk
spending too much on rocks
Member since September 2011
Posts: 428
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Post by rykk on Mar 3, 2014 4:17:39 GMT -5
Thanks, Lee - I froze the gallon jug. Half oil, half water. I reckon I'm just gonna have to filter it the slow way.
Phil - As to the temperature, I was just thinking the same thing. Though it's only in the high 50's, high 60's here, it IS colder than the usual 100 degrees in the garage. That could well be why the snot won't settle out. Gotta figure out some way to warm up the 2 buckets I have over a number of days, stir them up, and see if it settles out better. Might just have to wait a while until it gets the usual brutal hot here, again. Sure wish I lived up where y'all are... at least for Spring-Summer-Fall! :-) C-ya, Rick
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Post by phil on Mar 3, 2014 12:09:56 GMT -5
Thanks, Lee - I froze the gallon jug. Half oil, half water. I reckon I'm just gonna have to filter it the slow way. Phil - As to the temperature, I was just thinking the same thing. Though it's only in the high 50's, high 60's here, it IS colder than the usual 100 degrees in the garage. That could well be why the snot won't settle out. Gotta figure out some way to warm up the 2 buckets I have over a number of days, stir them up, and see if it settles out better. Might just have to wait a while until it gets the usual brutal hot here, again. Sure wish I lived up where y'all are... at least for Spring-Summer-Fall! :-) C-ya, Rick 50's and 60's temps take a long time to filter. Last batch I did a little while ago was in the 50's daytime and 30's nights and it took weeks, and I didn't get as good a job as when it's warm. Rather than take it inside or go crazy trying to heat it up, I just let it take it's time, and either take a break from cutting or get what oil I can in a day or two and top it off with more oil. I've learned to have 2 "sets" of oil. One is in the saw, the other is sitting in filter bag/buckets till I need it, taking it's good old time to filter thru my 2 bag setup. And yeah this hobby will teach you patience....
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rykk
spending too much on rocks
Member since September 2011
Posts: 428
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Post by rykk on Mar 4, 2014 5:05:38 GMT -5
Yeah, I've got a full set of new oil jugs this time. Just trying to at least get one bucket empty/filtered so that I can start the big one. I've run out of clean buckets over this year because they all have a layer of sludge in the bottoms and I don't know how to dispose of it. Looks like grass doesn't like it at all and the dump is a pretty long drive. I think they may have only certain days they take hazardous stuff. C-ya, Rick
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Post by phil on Mar 4, 2014 12:16:07 GMT -5
Take those sludge buckets and do the soapy water trick. Fill them up 2/3 full with hot water. Add some dawn dish detergent, take that paint stirrer and whip it up. Then set them aside for a couple days, weeks, whatever your climate allows. The rock snot will separate and settle to the bottom, the oil will rise to the top and the water will be in the middle. Freeze. pour off oil into larger bucket. If you have a lot of buckets, you'll be surprised by how much oil time and mixing will separate. Then set the buckets upside down where the ice and snot will release (like a big tub). Separate and set the ice under your trees (they love the minerals) and throw the no longer hazardous rock dust in the garbage. It should just be a block of dense dirt at this stage, all the oil should be gone. I just bag it up and next time I'm near a city dumpster or collection site, donate it. You could mix it into a compost pile at this stage if you wanted.... it should be that clean!
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Post by johnjsgems on Mar 4, 2014 20:04:10 GMT -5
As far as slow filtering, I don't filter the sludge. I filter the oil after it rises out of the sludge and the oil drained from the saw. I'm guessing it would take a really long time to filter the sludge.
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Post by phil on Mar 4, 2014 23:29:49 GMT -5
You'd be surprised. When it's warm (or indoor temps), I filter oil, sludge and everything, and it only takes about 2 days (mineral oil) to get about 90% of the oil. When we used Pella and other rock oils it would take double that time at a minimum. When it's cold, all bets are off..... best to have a backup tub of oil and do the swap thing. The remaining 10% or so takes about a week to finish, and I'm pretty much left with sludge cake, with oil losses around a low 5%. Not counting oil lost from the actual slab cutting. Sometimes I get a grocery bag that's to good a quality, and it takes forever, and on the opposite end of the spectrum, sometimes I get a bag that's really cheap and the oil comes out still dirty. So once I find a store that has the right bags, I always ask for paper, not plastic. Kinda like the 3 bears and porridge, you know? <grin>. Wholefoods and Sunflower bags are too slow, Smith's (Krogers) are too cheap, the bags from the independent grocer are perfect.
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