mikethecabaddict
off to a rocking start
So many slabs to cab, so little time
Member since May 2015
Posts: 22
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Post by mikethecabaddict on May 27, 2015 14:18:28 GMT -5
after looking around and asking around these forums me and my old man decided to pick up a Lot-O double barrel vibratory tumbler to use for mass finishing some of our cabochons. we also picked up a few pounds of both large and small ceramic media with the tumbler. We had previously acquired a fair bit of 220, 400, and 600 grit along with both tin oxide and cerium oxide polish in with an auction lot we picked up, and now that were mass finishing weve opted to use what we had on hand for grits. for our first batch we preformed some small to medium (15x20 mm and smaller) cabochons up to our 220 cabking wheel and then attempted to start at 400 grit with 2 tablespoons for 24 hours, washed the cabs and ceramic, then proceeded to 2 tablespoons of 600 grit for another 24, washed again, and it is now at the polishing stage with the cerium oxide polish but only a single teaspoon of the polish. It was running fine lastnight when we started it but as of this morning the movement of the material inside the barrel has slowed drastically. i added a few squirts of water and left it to do its thing, when i checked a little later to see if i added enough i noticed that it had began to form little bubbles all over the media and stones. at this point ive added a dozen or two squirts of water over the last 7 hours and the tumbling action has hardly improved. ive even checked to see if there was standing water in the bottom of the barrel, which there wasnt so much as a drop when i inverted the barrel for a couple minutes. our second batch we chose to do some larger cabochons, many between 30x30 and 40x30, along with some smaller cabochons. we preformed only up to 120 on our cab king and currently have them running in the second barrel at the 220 stage, like the first batch they were running fine when we started it lastnight but when i woke up this morning it was moving very sluggishly. i added a fair bit of water, about a dozen squirts initially and another 3 dozen in the last 7 hours, it helped the action pick back up however its still moving considerably slower then before. with both barrels moving much slower then they were when we started them im not sure what the problem is, both barrels are between 3/4 and 4/5 full leaning closer to 4/5. we mounted the Lot-O to a small table, with a foam pad between the tumbler and table to minimize noise complains from the neighbors, and have a heavy bench vice on the table to keep it from wandering. were wetting all the rocks and media before starting the new load and we make sure the caps are on tight to prevent evaporation as much as possible. at this point im not sure what were doing wrong, should we clean out the barrels when the stones start to get muddy after 12 hours or so? are we adding enough grit? enough polish? enough water? should i be using more or less water when i spray them? would having the foam pad between the tumbler and table its mounted to effect anything? does cerium polish normally bubble like slightly soapy water or is that abnormal? on a slightly unrelated note i have some other questions, ive seen yall mention borax a lot as a burnisher, so in the context of stones and tumbling what exactly does burnishing do for us? when should we use it? how much should we use? and how much more water do we need to add to compensate for it? sorry for it being so long, new to this and trying to minimize the amount of trial and error learning better to learn from those who know then to spend months banging my head into a wall in frustration trying to learn the hard way
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Post by phil on May 27, 2015 14:45:46 GMT -5
Too much water will slow everything down. one squirt is all that's usually needed.
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snuffy
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2009
Posts: 4,319
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Post by snuffy on May 27, 2015 15:16:35 GMT -5
I fill my Lotos completely with all it will hold without pushing the top off,then tape the top to make sure it isn't pushed off.
snuffy
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Post by johnjsgems on May 27, 2015 16:08:06 GMT -5
Do Lotto instructions tell you how much grit and water to use? Sounds like a lot to me. I've only used Gy-Roc and Mini Sonics but generally vibe tumblers need full load. For cabs use about 70% media by volume. Rinse stones and media in a strainer and dump in tumbler dripping wet. Gy-Roc 2.5 lb. takes 1 teaspoon, 10 lb. 1 tablespoon grit. Start tumbler and observe action. Should rotate well without adding water. If not add literally a few drops at a time and observe. The 220 step will make slurry and slow action. You will need to check hourly for first 6-8 hours and add drops (or single squirts) of water to restore to initial movement. I usually run 220 for two days, rinse and recharge and run two more days. Rinse and run 600 for two days. After 600 I use Tide rather than Borax to burnish. Burnish is just a wash cycle. Run it overnight or less as needed with more water than with grit. Rinse and run polish step. I check polish step daily until satisfied. A good (.3 micron) grade of aluminum oxide works better for me than cerium and costs less than tin oxide or cerium. After polish, burnish again. If you live in a hard water area use distilled water throughout, especially polish step. If you had a spare hopper dedicated to polish you could leave media and polish in and just add a little water or a little fresh polish as needed. The first time I ran a Mini Sonic it was very frustrating trying to get the water ratio right. Too little and too much both causes problems. First few times I ended up dumping, rinsing and starting over. Usually from too much water. Struggle through until you master it and you will be glad.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 27, 2015 16:50:15 GMT -5
Your long question also requires a long answer. There are many variables to touch on. First is your grit usage. Do you have the instructions for the loto? If not I could scan them for you because all of your grit and polish amounts are too much. Second is the amount of water and there is no better way to instruct for that then to tell you to put all your rocks and ceramics in the barrel then fill it with water. At this point tip the barrel upside down with your hand under it and drain all the water out. This is the proper amount of water to start with every time in every stage. I Check mine no less then 4 times a day and at the most squirt about 4 shots in to maintain movement. The only time you really need to add water is in 120/220 stage. you really should not have had to add much if any for what you were doing. You also did not mention adding and thickeners to any of your stages. most of us do that for 500 through polish.
If you do some research on here you will find many good recipes for tumbling cabs. I know I have posted my methods in the past.
You also mentioned that your loto was mounted to a table? The instructions state it needs to be attached to at least a 40 pound concrete block. You also mentioned added padding to avoid noise but anything like that will dampen the vibrations required for the loto to work properly.
I am sure there is more but that should give you something to think about for now.
Chuck
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Post by Jugglerguy on May 27, 2015 17:06:58 GMT -5
I believe the Lot-O directions also state that cerium oxide does not work well. I use aluminum oxide polish.
I use I tablespoon of borax in all stages, but you don't really need it in the 220 stage. 2 tablespoons of 220 and only 1/2 TEASPOON of each grit after that. I do 500, 1000, and then polish.
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mikethecabaddict
off to a rocking start
So many slabs to cab, so little time
Member since May 2015
Posts: 22
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Post by mikethecabaddict on May 27, 2015 17:26:57 GMT -5
Your long question also requires a long answer. There are many variables to touch on. First is your grit usage. Do you have the instructions for the loto? If not I could scan them for you because all of your grit and polish amounts are too much. Second is the amount of water and there is no better way to instruct for that then to tell you to put all your rocks and ceramics in the barrel then fill it with water. At this point tip the barrel upside down with your hand under it and drain all the water out. This is the proper amount of water to start with every time in every stage. I Check mine no less then 4 times a day and at the most squirt about 4 shots in to maintain movement. The only time you really need to add water is in 120/220 stage. you really should not have had to add much if any for what you were doing. You also did not mention adding and thickeners to any of your stages. most of us do that for 500 through polish. If you do some research on here you will find many good recipes for tumbling cabs. I know I have posted my methods in the past. You also mentioned that your loto was mounted to a table? The instructions state it needs to be attached to at least a 40 pound concrete block. You also mentioned added padding to avoid noise but anything like that will dampen the vibrations required for the loto to work properly. I am sure there is more but that should give you something to think about for now. Chuck i prefer long answers, they tend to provide the most help and insight i do have the instructions, our first attempts at 400 on our first batch we used the grit amounts listed in the instructions and did not get much in the way of results so we opted to try a little more, since i had seen folks on here vary a bit in the amount of grit they use, and they seemed to turn out a bit better. is there a fine point between a half teaspoon the instructions call for and the 2 tablespoons weve tried where the results are better? we do start our loads like that for the initial or we put them back in wet after rinsing off the grit from the last stage. does that work as well or should we still do the fill and dump even if they are going in still wet from being rinsed off? for 220 how much does it take adding after it runs overnight? more specifically about a 8 hour window between the last night check and the morning coffee check to be completely honest i dont have a clue what you mean by thickeners, so its safe to assume i havnt used any. what are they and how do they help the process? alright ill remount it without the pad and see if that solves some of our issues. with the table, between the table and the vice attached to the table its over 40 lbs, does it specifically have to be one solid piece or as long as the total weight is there is it sufficient? ive seen at least one of your recopies, actually i was searching for your specific one the other day when i first ran into trouble the first time through. i know these forums are just brimming with information but ive had a hard time navigating them and finding the information im after. granted i still try, or at least try to fit all the questions i havnt been able to find answers to yet in a single post to try and avoid flooding the boards i know i ask a lot of questions, i dont mean for it to come across as not believing or accepting whats said, i just have a desire to not only know what works but to know why and how it works, so i tend to ask a lot of questions to gain that understanding. i do sincerely appreciate the help
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mikethecabaddict
off to a rocking start
So many slabs to cab, so little time
Member since May 2015
Posts: 22
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Post by mikethecabaddict on May 27, 2015 17:28:09 GMT -5
I believe the Lot-O directions also state that cerium oxide does not work well. I use aluminum oxide polish. I use I tablespoon of borax in all stages, but you don't really need it in the 220 stage. 2 tablespoons of 220 and only 1/2 TEASPOON of each grit after that. I do 500, 1000, and then polish. ya they do, i missed that so we switched to the tin oxide we have to see how it goes... eventually well be using aluminum oxide but eh we got the grits and polishes we have practically for free after we processed the rough we got with it in the auction lot
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Post by Jugglerguy on May 27, 2015 17:43:39 GMT -5
The thickeners Chuck referred to are things like borax, sugar, or Metamucil. I think borax is the most common. Be careful where you dump it, it kills plants.
I should mention that I don't usually tumble cabs, just plain rocks, so I'm not sure if that affects which grit you start with. It's hard to say how much water to add after a night in 220 since every squirt bottle dispenses a different amount of water per squirt. Just give it a squirt or two and then observe it for a couple minutes. It takes some time to get well distributed. Go slow because it can get too wet very quickly.
You asked about whether you need to fill the tumbler with water or just wet rocks. I prefer to fill my tumbler with water before adding rocks so that they don't get chipped when dropping them in. Chipping them is unlikely, but with fragile rocks like obsidian or cabs, why take a chance? When it's full (I fill it right up) tip it over with your hand over the top and drain as much water as you can.
Another Loto tip is to get a short piece of pvc pipe (about three inches long) to use as a stand. A canning funnel makes it much easier to fill too. Instead of taping the lid on, I use three largish rubber bands hooked together and wrapped round the whole barrel. I hook them on the nub underneath.
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Post by Jugglerguy on May 27, 2015 18:03:02 GMT -5
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mikethecabaddict
off to a rocking start
So many slabs to cab, so little time
Member since May 2015
Posts: 22
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Post by mikethecabaddict on May 27, 2015 18:06:17 GMT -5
The thickeners Chuck referred to are things like borax, sugar, or Metamucil. I think borax is the most common. Be careful where you dump it, it kills plants. I should mention that I don't usually tumble cabs, just plain rocks, so I'm not sure if that affects which grit you start with. It's hard to say how much water to add after a night in 220 since every squirt bottle dispenses a different amount of water per squirt. Just give it a squirt or two and then observe it for a couple minutes. It takes some time to get well distributed. Go slow because it can get too wet very quickly. You asked about whether you need to fill the tumbler with water or just wet rocks. I prefer to fill my tumbler with water before adding rocks so that they don't get chipped when dropping them in. Chipping them is unlikely, but with fragile rocks like obsidian or cabs, why take a chance? When it's full (I fill it right up) tip it over with your hand over the top and drain as much water as you can. Another Loto tip is to get a short piece of pvc pipe (about three inches long) to use as a stand. A canning funnel makes it much easier to fill too. Instead of taping the lid on, I use three largish rubber bands hooked together and wrapped round the whole barrel. I hook them on the nub underneath. ah so thats why folks talk about adding borax to their stages, what is the benefit of having the thickener and how much should one use? we always have borax on hand for silversmithing so it would be our go to as well. thanks for the tip our grass doesnt need any more problems maybe itll kill the weeds in the driveway lol ive actually been setting the barrel on its side on the cap to start loading it so i wasnt dropping the stones, as you said why take the chance, then tipping it upright as it got fuller. ill try it having it full already though, kills two birds with one stone since im usually rinsing them out right before starting a batch anyway. speaking of which, is there anything that can be done to stop the small media from lodging itself in the small space at the bottom of the barrel where the nub is? every batch so far ive had to use long needle nose pliers to yank out 2-3 pieces of small ceramic media stuck in what looks like grit and mud collected at the bottom.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 27, 2015 18:11:51 GMT -5
The thickeners Chuck referred to are things like borax, sugar, or Metamucil. I think borax is the most common. Be careful where you dump it, it kills plants. I should mention that I don't usually tumble cabs, just plain rocks, so I'm not sure if that affects which grit you start with. It's hard to say how much water to add after a night in 220 since every squirt bottle dispenses a different amount of water per squirt. Just give it a squirt or two and then observe it for a couple minutes. It takes some time to get well distributed. Go slow because it can get too wet very quickly. You asked about whether you need to fill the tumbler with water or just wet rocks. I prefer to fill my tumbler with water before adding rocks so that they don't get chipped when dropping them in. Chipping them is unlikely, but with fragile rocks like obsidian or cabs, why take a chance? When it's full (I fill it right up) tip it over with your hand over the top and drain as much water as you can. Another Loto tip is to get a short piece of pvc pipe (about three inches long) to use as a stand. A canning funnel makes it much easier to fill too. Instead of taping the lid on, I use three largish rubber bands hooked together and wrapped round the whole barrel. I hook them on the nub underneath. ah so thats why folks talk about adding borax to their stages, what is the benefit of having the thickener and how much should one use? we always have borax on hand for silversmithing so it would be our go to as well. thanks for the tip our grass doesnt need any more problems maybe itll kill the weeds in the driveway lol ive actually been setting the barrel on its side on the cap to start loading it so i wasnt dropping the stones, as you said why take the chance, then tipping it upright as it got fuller. ill try it having it full already though, kills two birds with one stone since im usually rinsing them out right before starting a batch anyway. speaking of which, is there anything that can be done to stop the small media from lodging itself in the small space at the bottom of the barrel where the nub is? every batch so far ive had to use long needle nose pliers to yank out 2-3 pieces of small ceramic media stuck in what looks like grit and mud collected at the bottom. I use the barrel on its side trick for putting in my stones too. I also use a round container to sit the barrel in when filling and that still allows me to tip it on its side. 1 tablespoon of borax in each stage and if I do a burnish step its just wet rocks and two tablespoons of borax for a 3-6 hours The hole in the bottom can be filled with 2 part epoxy but I use separate barrels for each stage so I dont bother filling it or cleaning any of my barrels at all. Chuck
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mikethecabaddict
off to a rocking start
So many slabs to cab, so little time
Member since May 2015
Posts: 22
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Post by mikethecabaddict on May 28, 2015 8:26:35 GMT -5
ah so thats why folks talk about adding borax to their stages, what is the benefit of having the thickener and how much should one use? we always have borax on hand for silversmithing so it would be our go to as well. thanks for the tip our grass doesnt need any more problems maybe itll kill the weeds in the driveway lol ive actually been setting the barrel on its side on the cap to start loading it so i wasnt dropping the stones, as you said why take the chance, then tipping it upright as it got fuller. ill try it having it full already though, kills two birds with one stone since im usually rinsing them out right before starting a batch anyway. speaking of which, is there anything that can be done to stop the small media from lodging itself in the small space at the bottom of the barrel where the nub is? every batch so far ive had to use long needle nose pliers to yank out 2-3 pieces of small ceramic media stuck in what looks like grit and mud collected at the bottom. I use the barrel on its side trick for putting in my stones too. I also use a round container to sit the barrel in when filling and that still allows me to tip it on its side. 1 tablespoon of borax in each stage and if I do a burnish step its just wet rocks and two tablespoons of borax for a 3-6 hours The hole in the bottom can be filled with 2 part epoxy but I use separate barrels for each stage so I dont bother filling it or cleaning any of my barrels at all. Chuck alright ill try that on our next stage, what does the thickener do for it though? prior to this endeavor ive never really tumbled stones so im about as green as it gets ya we plan to get another double barrel lot o after we make enough off the cabs from this one eh either ill epoxy it or deal with it till then, thanks!
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Post by johnjsgems on May 28, 2015 10:51:25 GMT -5
I'm not sure about thickening but a lot of vibe tumblers add a little detergent of some type with each load. I think it helps to get the grit to cover the rocks.
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,341
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Post by quartz on May 28, 2015 10:55:39 GMT -5
The idea behind mounting the machine on a concrete block is to maintain the designed-in vibration of the machine, within the machine. Putting it on a table or stack of pillows, or anything that will transmit the machine vibration away from the machine itself, serves to defeat that designed-in vibration characteristic that makes a Lot-O work so well.
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matt2432
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2014
Posts: 171
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Post by matt2432 on May 28, 2015 14:19:51 GMT -5
The idea of the thickeners is to slow down the movement of the rocks to prevent them from getting frosted or running into each other too hard. You don't have the problem in the first stage due to the amount of slurry that is generated, but in polish and pre-polish there is very little material removed. Without the thickener, the action of the vibe can be too much and cause problems. I don't think its as much of a problem with hard rocks like agates, but I think it can be with softer rocks.
I'm pretty new to tumbling, but haven't had problems running agates and pet wood through my UV-10 with no thickeners at all. I didn't see much of a difference with borax added, other than slowing down the action slightly (and killing the grass, haha).
Matt
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Post by johnjsgems on May 28, 2015 18:38:55 GMT -5
You use thickeners instead of ceramics or with ceramics? I used to have a now discontinued KG1 Mini Sonic that beat up soft rocks even with ceramics but it had no speed control like the larger Mini's and my current GyRoc with two speeds. Worked great for running Vibra Dry though. That stuff is all cushion.
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minerken
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2013
Posts: 466
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Post by minerken on May 28, 2015 19:08:00 GMT -5
John thanks for bringing up Vibradry I'll start a new thread on it.
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Post by phil on May 29, 2015 13:02:27 GMT -5
Do Lotto instructions tell you how much grit and water to use? Yep, they are very specific.
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mikethecabaddict
off to a rocking start
So many slabs to cab, so little time
Member since May 2015
Posts: 22
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Post by mikethecabaddict on May 29, 2015 14:53:23 GMT -5
Do Lotto instructions tell you how much grit and water to use? Yep, they are very specific. they did, but following the instructions for cabochons yielded results equivalent to taking the stones up to the 600 grit wheel and calling them done, which is my way of saying they were not up to par so i have to tweak things to get the needed results.
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