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Abuse
Oct 29, 2007 21:25:51 GMT -5
Post by mcdoverbob on Oct 29, 2007 21:25:51 GMT -5
Dearest Frankenstein: Please read Mark's post. I didn't bring up the topic of banning. Mark did. NMrocks: I don't want to be a part of one big happy malfunctioning family. When there is crap happening, pretending that it isn't happening doesn't work. When Mark says it's my way or the highway, when he deletes inconvenient postings, ignores the pettiness of preferred members, then I know how to hit the road. Cheers y'all Bob
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emyhro4048
spending too much on rocks
Member since March 2007
Posts: 396
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Abuse
Oct 29, 2007 21:36:17 GMT -5
Post by emyhro4048 on Oct 29, 2007 21:36:17 GMT -5
This is All really sad!
Ed M.
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spikeict
fully equipped rock polisher
Alba gu bra! In Promptu
Member since November 2006
Posts: 1,413
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Abuse
Oct 29, 2007 22:07:58 GMT -5
Post by spikeict on Oct 29, 2007 22:07:58 GMT -5
I didn't realize the first post had been changed until now. It does not read the same as before, I don't even know what to think right now..
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oriongal
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since May 2007
Posts: 96
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Abuse
Oct 29, 2007 23:28:24 GMT -5
Post by oriongal on Oct 29, 2007 23:28:24 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this will come out right, but I'll try...
I don't think there is right or wrong here. Or, maybe equal amounts of each, but in the end it would seem to be more of unintentionally hurt feelings than anything.
If you build a website, you are going to invest a lot of yourself into it - just like anything else you build or create, whether it's a house, a business, or a stunning piece of jewelry. It's more than just your time, it's a part of you that goes into it. And it's a part of you that sustains it as well.
I don't know the whole story here, but I am guessing that Dan didn't communicate with Mark what he wanted to do, or what the aims of his own board were going to be - i.e., an adjunct to what is here rather than an intended division. If that is so, that's probably mistake #1, but I doubt it'd be an intentional one.
If you don't know what the intent was beforehand, it can just as easily be interpreted as a deliberate attempt to divide the house while being a guest in the house. It's pretty natural to feel rather annoyed if you feel as though someone is not only trying to steal your party guests, but also using your own telephone to do it. Or like having someone not only steal the antique car that you lovingly restored, but also try to run you down with it in the process. It's a form of adding insult to injury...but that's also assuming the injury itself was intentional.
But, as many have said and I also believe, I don't think Dan is like that. I don't think anything like that even remotely crossed his mind. I don't think he had any intent to divide the house or divert visitors from here to his own site. I believe that he saw a niche here that he felt could be expanded, and expanded it. Not because he thought Mark was incapable or unwilling to expand it, but because he probably felt that expanding the niche here would dilute (or clutter up) the main focus here.
To reuse the analogy from above, it's like Dan going to a movie premiere party. While he's there, mingling with people who also came there to celebrate the movie, he finds a few people who not only like the movie, but also share his passion for collecting movie posters from the 50's. If he gives those people his phone number, he's not trying to steal them from the premiere party - he's just wanting to create an alternate avenue to share that related but much narrower-scope interest with like-minded people. He's not trying to down the party or its host, he isn't telling that smaller group not to waste their time on premiere parties. He's just excited that some of them share his passion for collecting 50's movie posters as well as sharing his passion for modern-day movie premieres. And he doesn't want to insult the host by trying to turn the conversation at large towards an interest that only a small subset of the guests share with him.
And of course I don't know that any of this is on the target or even anywhere near it, it's just a guess on my part. It's trying on both pairs of shoes for size and describing the fit of each, but no guarantee that it's the right pair of shoes to begin with, <grin>. But from what I'm seeing here, I think if Dan had indicated what he wanted to do and why before it blew up, it might not have blown up at all. Mark seems very much a reasonable guy, and I can understand why and how he might feel a little ill-used by the idea of someone using his own forum to siphon off users to another forum. And at the same time I can understand why Dan would feel as though he had been unfairly shunned if his intent was interpreted as being one way when it in fact was not that way at all. There's no right or wrong in either of those perspectives, just a misunderstanding of motive.
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Trouble
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2007
Posts: 93
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Abuse
Oct 29, 2007 23:34:39 GMT -5
Post by Trouble on Oct 29, 2007 23:34:39 GMT -5
Sounds to me like Blarneystone got miffed (was that before or after you raided my board Dan?) and started his own board and tried to steal away some of the members of this board.
It doesn't surprise me at all he'd do this. He's got some of you folks snowballed that's for sure.
One things for sure, if you cross Blarneystone, he gets even any way he can.
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oriongal
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since May 2007
Posts: 96
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 0:44:43 GMT -5
Post by oriongal on Oct 30, 2007 0:44:43 GMT -5
Sounds to me like Blarneystone got miffed (was that before or after you raided my board Dan?) and started his own board and tried to steal away some of the members of this board. It doesn't surprise me at all he'd do this. He's got some of you folks snowballed that's for sure. If so, then I'm one of them. But my opinion isn't solely based on what I've seen of Dan here - it is also based on what others have said here. If the people who are posting in support of Dan and who also got invitations had been expressing negative opinions in the process, I might be less likely to give the benefit of the doubt. What I mean would be saying things like "Dan felt like he could create a <insert positive here - better, more welcoming, etc> board, and you know what - I can't say that I disagree with him. This board has too many <insert reason for discontent here>. The atmosphere here is <insert negative opinion>. Maybe if things around here improved, there'd be no reason for anyone to consider creating another forum..." If they'd been expressing opinions along those lines, then I'd be a lot more likely to think that the intent was division rather than alternative. Division is only going to be possible where there is also discontent anyway - you can't fire or fuel a rebellion among a group of happy or satisfied people. No sense of discontent has been expressed by those contacted (or who contacted others themselves), which leaves me with the impression that being miffed (on anyone's part) wasn't any part of the equation or motivation. It would come out in subtle ways even if not direct ones if it were, irritation/discontent is one of the hardest things to keep a lid on whether in the written word or the spoken.
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adrian65
Cave Dweller
Arch to golden memories and to great friends.
Member since February 2007
Posts: 10,777
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 1:06:45 GMT -5
Post by adrian65 on Oct 30, 2007 1:06:45 GMT -5
Sounds to me like Blarneystone got miffed (was that before or after you raided my board Dan?) and started his own board and tried to steal away some of the members of this board. QUOTE FROM DAN'S INVITATION TO JOIN HIS BOARD: "... I've been hesitating to do this because I don't want to give the impression that I'm competing with RTH or that I'm stealing members or splitting off from RTH. ... ... Again... please don't think I'm trying to steal members or compete with RTH... I love RTH and will never leave it. I'm really grateful for all of the friends I've made here and don't want to jeapordize those relationships in any way.
If this whole thing seems 'out of line' or inappropriate please don't hesitate to tell me what you think. I respect all of your opinions and expect you to let me know if you think it's a bad idea." Firstly I would like to say sorry to Dan for quoting him without permission, but the quote above seems to me very relevant for this thread. I think it's VERY hard to name that invitation "stealing members". In fact, it sounds more like an invitation to think deeply what you want to do and even a person innitially not aware of the ethical problems would have become aware after reading his invitation. It's the personal choice of each of us to join as many forums as we wish. I joined his because I found there sections that are not found here. I think I have there about 10 posts, while here I have many more. I visit there from time to time to see the silversmithing area, which doesn't exist here. Is that stealing? Maybe others have more time to spend on the internet and can be more active on two or more forums. What's the problem? A very active member of this forum, which brought lately lots of fun and joy here, coming with great ideas, is also an active member there. I think that the value of a forum must come from the comparison and competition with others, not from isolating the members and restricting them the access to other forums. I live in a country which had for many years a political system that imposed the affiliation to a unique party. And I can tell you it was not a very good idea. Where is the barrier of not telling to another member about another forum? - PM? OK, I understand that, because, although it's private, it's the forum's part - e-mail? I think restricting e-mails sounds again like what I lived till about 20 years ago - person to person, between friends (as far as I know, there are people here that are close to each other and see each-other face to face) - IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTRICT. So, you see, these rules only make the news to spread a little slower, they don't stop the spreading. Adrian
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rollingstone
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since July 2009
Posts: 236
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 2:01:33 GMT -5
Post by rollingstone on Oct 30, 2007 2:01:33 GMT -5
I didn't see the original version of Mark's message, so I'm basing my comments on the Oct. 28 version.
I wasn't offended when I received my invite to join another board, but I definitely understand Mark's annoyance at having the PM system used to mass-mail members to join another group. If it's okay to do that, then it's not much of a leap to say it's okay for vendors to start using the PM system to mass-advertise their products. It could quickly become a junk box. Let's keep it for personal mail exchanges between two members, not bulk-mailing campaigns, regardless of their intent. -Don
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 7:56:29 GMT -5
Post by Original Admin on Oct 30, 2007 7:56:29 GMT -5
Well guys what can I say,
First up for those who didnt see my original post I said the words "im sick of it" - meaning what was going on - I deleted that as I felt it too strong. Over expressive (but generally how I felt).
I also said "a word of advice - get a grip" - this I deleted as I felt it was also heat of the moment. I added some helpful advice to the post because its more appropriate than me blowing off steam.
I would like the "policy" in place, I would have hoped never to "say" it - but I have done.
I cant actually enforce the "rule" anyway unless someone PMs me to tell me whats happening. As I cannot read private PMs (quite rightly!!)
I take a simpler view for my own sanity here. As this has worn me out mentally. The simpler view I have adopted is as follows.....
Please compare these two "policies" below.
Policy 1 ---------------------- I openly invite everyone to mail everyone about their boards which are totally different, similar or identical to this one. ----------------------
Policy 2 ---------------------- I do not want a member of this board to collect "PM and email information" from the member lists stored on this board in order to mass contact the members of this board, for the purpose that they may be invited to join another board of a similar nature. ---------------------------
Probably - somewhere between 1 and 2 there is a comfortable place for the majority of people to sit. Policy 1 is the exact opposite of policy 2.
People leaving over it? I cant stop that. People banned? None. People welcome back? - All.
Wording - "steal" - I dont think I said "steal" - That implies that the members here belong to me - which is ofcourse absurd and infact quite comical.
One more point - I havent mentioned anyone - ive just brought in the policy. Which I think is the way I think I should have done it.
Mark.
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Trouble
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2007
Posts: 93
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 8:17:26 GMT -5
Post by Trouble on Oct 30, 2007 8:17:26 GMT -5
You're taking this pretty good Mark, but I can tell you are hurt over the actions that has been taken by some of the members here.
I read Blarneystone's quoted message.
Folks, it BLEEDS guilt. The whole message is an apology for doing exactly what he knows he shouldn't have done. At least he apologized up front before/as he was committing the offense. He sure never apologized for coming to my board and jacking around with it or for the highly offensive and personal things he said to me under the guise of a cowardly sock-puppet.
Dan has a hard time separating what is right from wrong when it comes to his own actions but he'll sure sit his ass in judgment upon anybody he doesn't like and feels free and justified to act out how he pleases.
I sure won't come back here to participate till I know for sure about 3 people are history here. Blarneystone being the main one.
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,095
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 9:04:07 GMT -5
Post by stefan on Oct 30, 2007 9:04:07 GMT -5
OK OK OK First and Foremost- THIS IS MARKS BOARD- He pays the bills- he calls the shots- If you don't like it- or can't live with it- SEE YA!!!! Plain and simple- Yes I get along great with Dan- Have traded with him- talked with him- considered him a friend-- Still do as a matter of fact (and NO I'm not a memeber of his board- nor do I plan on becoming one- I only have time for on board- and here is where I'll stay) If he wants to set out on his own and start his own board- Great for him- If he wants to still hang out here and talk- Even Better- Mark is not asking us to chose- He is just setting limits on how much of his hard work can be taken-
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 9:15:07 GMT -5
Post by hermatite on Oct 30, 2007 9:15:07 GMT -5
OH NO! I agree with STEFAN! Oh the HUMANITY!
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Trouble
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2007
Posts: 93
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 9:15:26 GMT -5
Post by Trouble on Oct 30, 2007 9:15:26 GMT -5
Mark has every right to be mad. Dan acts beyond bounds. We don't know the extent of his boundaries. Here's one of the PMs he sent to me after he raided my board. Read it CAREFULLY in particular the part I bolded.
------------------------------------------------------------- blarneystone Guest Re: Your Little Visit Today « Message sent on Aug 2, 2007, 12:54pm » [Reply]
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,095
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 9:22:32 GMT -5
Post by stefan on Oct 30, 2007 9:22:32 GMT -5
Thank You Herm- You put a smile on a very sad face!
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 9:31:13 GMT -5
Post by BAZ on Oct 30, 2007 9:31:13 GMT -5
Mark can do whatever he wants, including pull the plug. Remember (like Stefan says) whose board this is and show a little respect. This isn't directed at ANYONE, just my opinion before my morning coffee!!!
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 9:34:02 GMT -5
Post by catmandewe on Oct 30, 2007 9:34:02 GMT -5
Mark has every right to be mad. Dan acts beyond bounds. We don't know the extent of his boundaries. Here's one of the PMs he sent to me after he raided my board. Read it CAREFULLY in particular the part I bolded.------------------------------------------------------------- blarneystone Guest Re: Your Little Visit Today « Message sent on Aug 2, 2007, 12:54pm » [Reply] Trouble- Sounds pretty tame to me, I noticed you didnt tell us what the pm you sent to him said. Sorry, but anyone with the name of "Trouble" gives me the impression you are trying to start just that. Now if you want you can use parts of my post to stir more trouble. Hey Mark, You have a great board here, this is like home to me. Just wanted to let you know. Tony
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Trouble
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2007
Posts: 93
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 10:05:12 GMT -5
Post by Trouble on Oct 30, 2007 10:05:12 GMT -5
Tony, I would be happy to give you the password to my account so that you can go into my mail and see the entire conversation. You could then copy and paste it here for all to see if you like.
I have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of.
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Trouble
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2007
Posts: 93
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 10:07:25 GMT -5
Post by Trouble on Oct 30, 2007 10:07:25 GMT -5
I have to go to work, but I will come back later tonight. This thread has captured my interest.
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WyckedWyre
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since April 2007
Posts: 1,391
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 12:08:46 GMT -5
Post by WyckedWyre on Oct 30, 2007 12:08:46 GMT -5
Mitch, I was sad when you left. I am sad that Dan has left. I wish Daniel would come back, too. McBob, sorry I hate discord! I'm now sad that you and Mailman left. I hope it all blows over and everyone returns.
I agree with Mark about one thing - I think "mass mailings" should be disallowed, whatever the reason. In this case I believe it happened with the best of intentions although not with the best of results.
One final note and then I have no more to say - PMs are just that - PERSONAL and PRIVATE and should be kept as such. Airing private disputes in public to glean sympathy from others is childish and immature.
Well, t-t-t-t-that's all, folks...it's back to rocks for me! ::)S
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fossilbrain
spending too much on rocks
Cookie Monster agate
Member since October 2007
Posts: 360
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Abuse
Oct 30, 2007 12:42:15 GMT -5
Post by fossilbrain on Oct 30, 2007 12:42:15 GMT -5
I can't help but nod to the folks pointing out that Mark never banned anyone or even mentioned any names, just put the unspoken "copy/paste distro-recruitment" policy out there (even if seeming irked at the time for actually having to do so). He doesn't seem to get his buttons pressed much; I just saw him venting a tad and drawing a line on this issue. I won't re-post on this thread to help keep it on page 1 forever but, but there it is.
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