Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 19:30:06 GMT -5
@shotgunner, 1/4" bolt thru frame, 3/4 dia.x1 1/4 rubber [was solid, I drilled it], and thru base. I have wing nuts on the bolts and under the base, can tune vibration a little with them. The play in the vibe at the pivot end is so minimal that a rubber gasket absorbs all of it? And tightening the tension on the gasket attenuates the action? Nice bit of engineering! I woulda never guessed. I was looking for a door hinge..... Mine woulda failed. Fwiw, I too wanna polish larger stones. Fist size or so.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 19:49:56 GMT -5
OK I just reread. Not a gasket but a block of rubber. So maybe tire tread, engine mounts, muffler hangers... Could work...
All the rest is really straight forward. That is some really clean solutions to the various aspects of the machine.
Great!! Larry!! Woot!!
Do you think 10k rpm would be better/worse?
|
|
victor1941
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2011
Posts: 1,978
|
Post by victor1941 on Apr 10, 2016 21:57:18 GMT -5
When I looked at your method for holding the tumbler part I wondered if the tools used to remove oil filters on cars would work to secure the barrel and give easy release?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 22:12:24 GMT -5
When I looked at your method for holding the tumbler part I wondered if the tools used to remove oil filters on cars would work to secure the barrel and give easy release? Im visualizng unistrut and a proper sized pipe clamp meant for unistrut.
|
|
quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,341
|
Post by quartz on Apr 10, 2016 23:07:28 GMT -5
You guys are thinking; good. I think the oil filter tool would be somewhat of a problem in that you would have to arrange a way to hold the handle tight while the machine is running, if one the right size could be found. Quick release would indeed be good. I built the saddle and clamps the way I did out of a thought for simplicity, not necessarily the best. Same for the unistrut clamps, size must match the barrel closely, but a workable idea. I'm making a flat bar roller so I can roll up a good solid saddle and bolt-on top clamp to match the barrel. Going to build a machine using 10" PVC a foot long, likely not till this fall, getting stuff together as time permits. scottgunner, the first thing I used for the "back end pivot" was a couple hinges, rattled like crazy and made control of the machine near impossible; guess I can say "been there..." I did do a little reading on the subject, seems vibrational frequency in the 3-4 thousand range is what a lot of this type machine like to run at, then too, nothing like experimentation. I will come up with a 3450 motor for the bigger machine rather than overdrive the shaft like the one is now. 10k speed would be hard to maintain on the shaft w/o some really good bearings supporting it, and some sort of better than V-belt to drive it.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Apr 11, 2016 7:29:02 GMT -5
To avoid 10" PVC fittings will you make caps ? And the opening ? 4 inch opening big enough ? I could see 12" X 12"/11" X 11" end plates, square end caps for easier mounting. Your angulation sure got those rocks to roll, add to success. End plates, Amish wood fired water heater:
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Apr 11, 2016 7:45:17 GMT -5
Can I copy you ? Well, the Viking takes care of my needs. But if, I would copy yours. The more I think about this pivot, the more sense it makes.
|
|
|
Post by adam on Apr 11, 2016 8:37:21 GMT -5
Glad you got that vibe going. Engineers are way crafty.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 9:47:02 GMT -5
Unistrut clamps are going to be made in standard pipe sizes. Lucky for us, pipe comes in, well, standard sizes. Just buy to match.
I' leaning on tire tread for my hinge point. Might be too hard to tighten for adjustments...
Maybe I will be able to build. Something happened recently for me relating to work. I feel like I have a little time for hobby again. Need 6" pvc pipe.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 9:52:29 GMT -5
This project has to be the simplest way to accomplish this end result.
Now, will it do jim's "2 step"?
Prolly...
|
|
quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,341
|
Post by quartz on Apr 11, 2016 23:25:34 GMT -5
I'll be making end caps, couldn't imagine cost of 10" ones, easy to do. 6" hole for access, same style as present, probably shower cap for lid. scottgunner, the material I used for the rubber biscuits are pieces of the o-ring seal out of the bell end of 12" PVC pipe. I think the unistrut clamps would work pretty good, probably have to line them with innertube or pond liner rubber. You will build a machine that can figure more ways to rattle than you ever imagined, been there... Wonder why the yellow highlighter quit working for me?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 23:35:13 GMT -5
How about position of the hopper?
Midway?
Not important?
Pipe clamps: lined with inner tube? Parts dip?
The welded chassis seems simple.
Motor mount and sheaves simple-ish.
I see why pulley in line rather than under. Obvious in hindsight.
Prolly also set the hopper on tire tread. Clamp then pinning it between rubber and rubber.
Car motor valve springs strong enough?
|
|
quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,341
|
Post by quartz on Apr 12, 2016 14:14:58 GMT -5
I lurked your questions earlier and spent some time thinking about them. Your idea of using unistrut for a frame sounds better all the time, simple and versatile. With a little planning, you could design in some movement of the hopper along the rails, may be good method to find the "sweet spot" of best vib. An inch or so of travel either side of middle would likely make a difference in the way it works. Plastic parts dip on the clamps way better than my fiddling with loose rubber strips now. Tire tread or a piece of toothed flat belt should do well under hopper, I don't think a saddle is really necessary with that type clamp, just some padding. Car valve springs should work fine, and the rotating shaft kept up close to that end of the frame. I wonder at the importance of having the "right springs" [within obvious limits] vs. working with the springs by adjusting the weights on the shaft. Keep in mind here, I've not yet proven this machine of mine is/isn't a one-hit-wonder, have yet to make a second one. The more versatility of adjustment that can be designed in, the better the likelihood of making one work really well. Have you given thought to a base for the shaking works? I'm thinking a fairly substantial wood frame so as to better absorb the vibration from above rather than transmit it through a steel base frame.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2016 17:37:31 GMT -5
quartzIf needed, we can increase tension with wing nuts. We cant decrease tension. Too loose is too loose. Your "U" frame better than my "H" because pulling the hopper is all you need to change vbelt. An H means pulling the shaft. I Think a 2x4 frame made the correct height, having a lower shelf, loaded with a couple 3 cinder blocks will make an easy to move, quiet (as possible) unit for almost no money.. Think used aquarium stand from a garage sale... Thanks for the thoughtful replies. This is a nice build! If you draw up the plans, i'll market them on ebay. We can share the dough!
|
|
|
Post by oregon on Apr 12, 2016 19:53:21 GMT -5
I've never looked inside a old Viking tumbler, but think they have a mechanical vibe mechanism as well - Not sure about the minisonic tumbler.. At any rate, I've been using a lot-O. Maybe the shape of the bowl helps, but it seems like the amplitude of the motion is pretty small - which makes it nice and quiet as well. No belts or additional bearings.
So I'm wondering if you get a double shafted motor, put your offset weights on the motor directly, and mount the motor directly to the platform with the hopper, if that would quiet things down. Sort of the Mega-Lotto version. I guess the motor bearings might take the wear rather than the pillow blocks, but the lot-O motors seem to last quite a while. If the entire motor is free to vibrate, that probably also lessens the impact on those bearings.
Seems like it's the frequency (3000 rpm) of contacts that allows vibes to work so well, rather than the amplitude? I don't know but I can envision that a large part of a rock's time is spent unproductively in a rotary vs each motion being a potential grinding action for every rock in the vibe. You might get away with a smaller motor that draws fewer amps as well. (I imagine mounting it closer to the hopper is better if you do that). Just 2c.
|
|
quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,341
|
Post by quartz on Apr 13, 2016 0:05:05 GMT -5
@shotgunner, I don't see where you see my frame as being U shaped, the belt is totally captive to the point of a reinforced gap on the spring end, and I would have to loosen one bearing to change the belt. Look closely, the belt runs both over and under the cross piece of the frame. One advantage to self-aligning bearings; loosening one bearing from the frame will allow the shaft to be lifted far enough to slip the belt out. I will put up a few still pics. if you want. When I get the thing perfected to my satisfaction, selling plans is a pretty good idea, work to do yet. Excellent idea on the shelf w/blocks on it. oregon, I agree it's the frequency that does most of the work in a vibe, when I speeded mine up only a couple hundred cycles it made control of the action in the hopper easier. The larger one will have a 3450 motor on it. Personally, I'm against putting the motor on the upper frame, too much added weight to deal with, and I would be concerned about the motor consuming itself with the weights on the shafts. I can buy lots of pillow blocks and belts for the cost of one double shaft motor, and I've only ever found one at a sale. Vikings do have a separate, belt [O-rings] driven shaft and a double shaft motor driving it. The weight shaft is on the upper vibrating table and the motor mounted to the base.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Apr 13, 2016 2:34:11 GMT -5
Design bang on. Liking the wood, durable, light weight and quiet. Most unappreciated material to work with. As a vibe has larger capacity the need to isolate the motor and use a driven counter-balance shaft may about be required.
Metal vibes often run in the same 60 cycle multiple of 3000-3600 motor RPM. The difference is they have more amplitude of travel per vibration. Can pit agate and glass with average ~1/8" shallow circular pits. Harbor Freight metal vibe did just that regardless of slurry.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Apr 13, 2016 8:15:11 GMT -5
The complaint I have about the Viking hopper is it's length. Large rocks go to the left and small to the right. Encourages big rocks to bang on each other. The VT-35 pound hopper is similar to the VT-12 hoppers in their tallish shape. You would think the vertical shape would help with mixing. You mentioned a 10 pipe, 12 inches long. Sure like that shape better than a 6 inch pipe 24 inches long to encourage mixing. The same Viking base will shake the 35 pounds by increasing the off balance of the counter weights. Same 1/3 HP 3450.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 13:30:11 GMT -5
quartz It looked to me like a cross bar on the welded metal frame would prevent removing belt on the motor end of the frame. I thought you would have to pull the hopper and the pivot end of the frame to changebelts. Hence My U shap comment. I had originally thought an H would make that easier. Dont rememner why though! Lol Thanks for confirming my idea of cinder blocks on a shelf. It seems a wood frame would be quieter. Seems like this would be made 2 or 3 hoppers wide too. One lomger counterweight shaft bouncing a longer frame, that has three hoppers end to end... I doubt a bigger motor would be required. Just a bigger off balance weight.
|
|
quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,341
|
Post by quartz on Apr 13, 2016 14:39:11 GMT -5
I learned a few things today, and put up a couple stills of frame front for clarity on a few questions. 1: For the sake of space saving, 3 cap blocks are very near the same weight as 2 construction cinder blocks, same LxW dimensions and half as thick. 2: I put the machine on a heavy, carpet covered cart [use it for moving heavy things around on smooth surfaces], runs great and is quiet. Raining now off and on, this way I can push it in the shed when needed. 3: Note the rubber biscuit over the frame on "control rod" and the fairly stiff spring under the frame, this has given me a much greater control of amplitude. The springs on the frame corners may not be necessary--try w/o them on next run.
|
|