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Post by vegasjames on Feb 9, 2017 18:44:31 GMT -5
Well a guess is what it is from the pic. I say number one is a dyed howlite. Number two is turquoise but I think it's foreign. Number three is a chryscolla mix by the reddish areas. Royston sacred has reddish but not like that. Number four is turquoise but it's either heavily stabilized due to the washy color or it too is foreign. They r pretty but not to me high end. I consider the "reddish" areas to be more brown, but either way it is limonite. Limonite varies a lot in color from reds, to browns to yellows. But its presence does not indicate a rock is chrysocolla. Limonite is commonly found with turquoise as well. You can see various examples in some of these turquoises: www.alltribes.com/kcenter/types-of-turquoise.html
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fireforged
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 215
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Post by fireforged on Feb 10, 2017 9:23:20 GMT -5
Thank you all for your comments and observations. You have reinforced my previous opinions.
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Post by orrum on Feb 10, 2017 9:29:21 GMT -5
My guess was just that, a guess. Number one is a classic look of Chinese dyed howlite. IF it's real that is one super expensive cab and the info given was they were not uber expensive. Like I said a guess.
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fireforged
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 215
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Post by fireforged on Feb 10, 2017 13:43:25 GMT -5
I am accused of having more money than brains and since I don't have a lot of money......... So here I am a babe in the woods trying to figure out how to buy REAL turquoise at a place like quartzsite without having a portable lab. Since there seems to be tons of "turquoise" material there I would think that some of it is real. I have had a number of people tell me that they can tell just by the appearance of the stones and so I put my picture line up on this board and asked for your IDs. To tell the truth I can't tell the difference now and I don't pretend to. I was hopping that some one would share some hard earned knowledge with me. Oh well.
It is obvious that the Chinese have totally poisoned the turquoise market by flooding it with tidy bowl howlite. They have been aided and abetted in their effort by greedy and dishonest dealers here in the states. I have more than a few pieces that I bought from "reputable" large retail dealers that are very obviously fake.
This forces me to abandon the turquoise market. I feel sorry for the miner that is trying to sell his stash of turquoise.
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on Feb 10, 2017 14:10:34 GMT -5
I am accused of having more money than brains and since I don't have a lot of money......... So here I am a babe in the woods trying to figure out how to buy REAL turquoise at a place like quartzsite without having a portable lab. Since there seems to be tons of "turquoise" material there I would think that some of it is real. I have had a number of people tell me that they can tell just by the appearance of the stones and so I put my picture line up on this board and asked for your IDs. To tell the truth I can't tell the difference now and I don't pretend to. I was hopping that some one would share some hard earned knowledge with me. Oh well. It is obvious that the Chinese have totally poisoned the turquoise market by flooding it with tidy bowl howlite. They have been aided and abetted in their effort by greedy and dishonest dealers here in the states. I have more than a few pieces that I bought from "reputable" large retail dealers that are very obviously fake. This forces me to abandon the turquoise market. I feel sorry for the miner that is trying to sell his stash of turquoise. You have to spend a lot of time looking and working with turquoise to get a feel for it. If someone is trying to sell you turquoise, ask them which mine it came from. Most sellers of natural turquoise will be able to tell you the mine it came from, as having the mine information greatly increases it's value. Ask if it's been enhanced. Stabilized/vulcanized/color enhanced/pulverized and reconstituted/etc. If it's finished cabs, many natural turquoise cabochons are backed with devcon or some other 2 part epoxy for stability. Few stones are naturally hard enough to cab without any backing or stabilization. If it's selling by the carat or gram, you're probably on the right track. If the color is too even, if the webbing is too perfect, if the polish is very "plastic-y" and the price is bargain basement...be on your guard. These are all generalities and there are exceptions of course. It's a specialized field that's flooded with imitations, artificial enhancements and deceitful practices.
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 10, 2017 17:30:40 GMT -5
I am accused of having more money than brains and since I don't have a lot of money......... So here I am a babe in the woods trying to figure out how to buy REAL turquoise at a place like quartzsite without having a portable lab. Since there seems to be tons of "turquoise" material there I would think that some of it is real. I have had a number of people tell me that they can tell just by the appearance of the stones and so I put my picture line up on this board and asked for your IDs. To tell the truth I can't tell the difference now and I don't pretend to. I was hopping that some one would share some hard earned knowledge with me. Oh well. It is obvious that the Chinese have totally poisoned the turquoise market by flooding it with tidy bowl howlite. They have been aided and abetted in their effort by greedy and dishonest dealers here in the states. I have more than a few pieces that I bought from "reputable" large retail dealers that are very obviously fake. This forces me to abandon the turquoise market. I feel sorry for the miner that is trying to sell his stash of turquoise. It can be difficult. I have seen people claim turquoise is not turquoise just because they thought it was the wrong color. Many people do not realize how many colors turquoise comes in. There are actually around 70 different shades of color in turquoise. So color is not an indicator. And if you look at pics of turquoise it will confuse you even further as there are some known turquoises that unless you were told what it was there is no way you would ever know that it was a turquoise. The presence of limonite is not an indicator either as limonite is common with turquoise and chrysocolla. Hardness or porosity is not an indicator either since turquoise can vary in both depending on silica content. Although chrysocolla is softer than turquoise to begin with. Unless otherwise stated specifically assume it is stabilized. Naturally hard turquoise that does not require stabilization is very rare. Less than 10% of turquoise is naturally hard enough to not require stabilization. Most often this is done with epoxy, which is pretty easy to detect. If stabilized with sodium silicate it can be nearly impossible to detect unless you have access to some very expensive lab equipment. If raw you can use specific gravity to differentiate between turquoise and chrysocolla, but there is a limitation. If there is other minerals in the test specimen such as limonite this can throw the SG off so you need to get as clean of a specimen as possible. In my opinion the phosphate test is one of the best ways to determine the difference between turquoise and chrysocolla as turquoise will test high in phosphate. Chrysocolla does not contain phosphate since it is a copper silicate. The pick of the cab on the left does have a weird fake look to it. It could be dyed howlite or possibly even a reconstituted low grade turquoise. Sometimes dye is added to the epoxy to enhance the color. I do have some low grade turquoise that looks a lot like the sample on the right but the pic is a little whited out making it hard to make out.
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 10, 2017 19:53:43 GMT -5
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 10, 2017 20:19:43 GMT -5
This site is a really good source of information on turquoise in their learning center page. But you may find this very interesting as it shows good examples of what I was saying about the wide variety of turquoise with some you would not even recognize as turquoise: www.durangosilver.com/turquoise-colors.html
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 10, 2017 20:22:07 GMT -5
And examples of even the color range of Royston turquoise:
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 10, 2017 20:24:58 GMT -5
Another good site showing a wide variety of turquoises. Note some look like what some people are referring to as chrysocolla. tucsonturquoise.com/?page_id=28
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 10, 2017 20:34:30 GMT -5
Here is another one. Note the turquoise from the Fox Mine looks just like a lot of the turquoise I have been mining here in Southern Nevada that some people have claimed is chrysocolla even though the specific gravity is too high for chrysocolla but is correct for turquoise, it does not gel in acid like chrysocolla and tests very high in phosphate again consistent with turquoise but not chrysocolla: www.horsekeeping.com/jewelry/stones.htmThis is why I have tried to get across to some people that it can be very difficult differentiating turquoise from chrysocolla just from a picture. Testing for phosphate is more accurate.
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Post by Psycho on Feb 10, 2017 20:38:19 GMT -5
Boy I sure opened up a can of worms when I started this thread lol. Lots of information and thought processes to make sure we as collectors, miners and dealers keep on the up and up. I know I would be pissed to get screwed over on turquoise to find out it was dyed howlite.
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 10, 2017 21:08:51 GMT -5
Boy I sure opened up a can of worms when I started this thread lol. Lots of information and thought processes to make sure we as collectors, miners and dealers keep on the up and up. I know I would be pissed to get screwed over on turquoise to find out it was dyed howlite. Dyes can generally be tested for with some solvent on a cotton swab rubbed on the stone. Acetone should work or better yet methylene chloride. Be really careful with the later. Minimize exposure and use in a well ventilated area away from sparks and flames.
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fireforged
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 215
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Post by fireforged on Feb 10, 2017 23:01:11 GMT -5
Well it was my line up and my rocks so I will tell you what I think the pieces are. Number one is a piece of high quality chinese turquoise. I spent a lot of money on it and a bunch more like it. It is stabilized but not dyed. Number two and number 4 are sonoran chrysocolla cut from the same slab. I stabilized them. Piece number three is very interesting in that it exhibits many of the properties of both chrysocolla and turquoise. I am going to call it turquoise. I put the line up together to see what people would say and try to get more knowledge. My daughter says that she can just look at a piece and tell if it is turquoise or chrysocolla. I tell her she can't and proved it to her with a similar line up that included a variety of varicite also. I thought this would be a good thread to interject the line up into.
The information that Don, vegasjames, 1dave, and orrum gave us was in my opinion some of the best comments and info on turquoise that I have ever heard or seen. I want to really thank them for their comments. I have learned a lot. But I still have more money than brains.
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Post by orrum on Feb 11, 2017 9:14:52 GMT -5
So why was the info given that two were turquoise and two were chrysacolla? Your thread was very misleading on purpose. I do not a precise mind games such as this.
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Post by 1dave on Feb 11, 2017 9:30:18 GMT -5
So why was the info given that two were turquoise and two were chrysacolla? Your thread was very misleading on purpose. I do not a precise mind games such as this. I thought it was a great "Buyers Beware" information share! And evoked a lot of good information.
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metalsmith
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 1,537
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Post by metalsmith on Feb 11, 2017 10:53:18 GMT -5
Here is another one. Note the turquoise from the Fox Mine looks just like a lot of the turquoise I have been mining here in Southern Nevada that some people have claimed is chrysocolla even though the specific gravity is too high for chrysocolla but is correct for turquoise, it does not gel in acid like chrysocolla and tests very high in phosphate again consistent with turquoise but not chrysocolla: www.horsekeeping.com/jewelry/stones.htmThis is why I have tried to get across to some people that it can be very difficult differentiating turquoise from chrysocolla just from a picture. Testing for phosphate is more accurate. Good resources Phosphates: variscite?
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 11, 2017 16:02:55 GMT -5
Here is another one. Note the turquoise from the Fox Mine looks just like a lot of the turquoise I have been mining here in Southern Nevada that some people have claimed is chrysocolla even though the specific gravity is too high for chrysocolla but is correct for turquoise, it does not gel in acid like chrysocolla and tests very high in phosphate again consistent with turquoise but not chrysocolla: www.horsekeeping.com/jewelry/stones.htmThis is why I have tried to get across to some people that it can be very difficult differentiating turquoise from chrysocolla just from a picture. Testing for phosphate is more accurate. Good resources Phosphates: variscite? Yes, variscite will also test positive for phosphate since it is also an aluminum phosphate. Variscite generally has a different look and tends to be a little softer. If not sure you can always run tests for copper or chromium.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 23:00:46 GMT -5
Good resources Phosphates: variscite? Yes, variscite will also test positive for phosphate since it is also an aluminum phosphate. Variscite generally has a different look and tends to be a little softer. If not sure you can always run tests for copper or chromium. As for differentiating aluminium phosphate from copper aluminium phosphate? What about simply dissolving the stone in nitric? Copper nitrate has color. Aluminium nitrate is colorless?
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Post by 1dave on Feb 12, 2017 2:55:49 GMT -5
Of course you mean a chip of the rough.
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