doublet83
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 118
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Post by doublet83 on Jun 19, 2017 8:16:35 GMT -5
I've recently noticed some some small crescent shaped bruises on a few of my polished tumbles. First time I had this issue, and the bruises are very small and only noticeable if you look closely and are only visible on clear rock.
This is the first time I had this issue and I believe this is the result of tumbling a large 3 pound agate using a high speed 15 pound Thumler. Likely the big rock is just causing some small impact damage to everything else in the barrel.
I know some others have tried tumbling big rocks, and I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with this issue?
Going forward I will probably not tumble any high end material with big rocks..
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Jun 19, 2017 8:25:36 GMT -5
Impact fractures. Seen em a 100 times. Yo rocks are hitting to hard.
1) barrel not full enough(75%) 2) low on fluid in barrel 3) poor mix of sizes 4) more than one big rock in the barrel 5) using a tire tumbler
Unless they were in a high velocity creek/river and nature abused them. Very common in like Yellowstone River where rocks are moving at 200 MPH...
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Post by coloradocliff on Jun 19, 2017 8:35:37 GMT -5
Impact fractures. Seen em a 100 times. Yo rocks are hitting to hard. 1) barrel not full enough(75%) 2) low on fluid in barrel 3) poor mix of sizes 4) more than one big rock in the barrel 5) using a tire tumbler Unless they were in a high velocity creek/river and nature abused them. Very common in like Yellowstone River where rocks are moving at 200 MPH... Would the kitty litter slurry in the rotary solve most of the damage problems? Also James, Someone asked yesterday if the rock could be bruised in a vibe where you cant run the slurry or can you? Seems that I have gotten some damage from bruising in the vibes. ??
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Fossilman
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Member since January 2009
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Post by Fossilman on Jun 19, 2017 8:52:25 GMT -5
Impact fractures,a very common thing,I see them om "Lakers" a lot,Carnelian agates get it to,especially the bigger ones.. As James said the Montana's have taken a beating since they formed,over 60% of them are natural fractures... More slurry and more % of rocks per load help out a bunch-Good luck... I have one agate staring me in the face now,as I type,it has a couple half moons on it....
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doublet83
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 118
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Post by doublet83 on Jun 19, 2017 8:59:31 GMT -5
Thanks James for confirming.
This is the first time I had this issue. I believe you use round barrels? My understanding is that round barrels give a significantly faster and rougher tumble versus hex barrels that the Thumler's use.
Should be able to create a gentler tumble by adding more smalls and adding more water. To cliff's question, thicker slurry should also make the tumble gentler.
The variables for tumble gentleness seem to be
-fullness of barrel -thickness of slurry -amount of water -size of rocks -amount of smalls / filler used -speed of barrel -size of barrel -hex versus round barrel
Also seems that the rougher the tumble, obviously the faster the material removal, but also the more efficient your grit becomes (more rock removal per unit of grit used)
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jun 19, 2017 9:46:45 GMT -5
Yes, hex are gentler. looks like you know what to do doublet.
Cliff, I just use Borax in the vibe, 2 tablespoons/14 pounds. My vibe does bruise softer rocks. Thicker slurry separates from the main population of rocks(problem related to my type vibe). So I don't try slurry thickeners w/vibe at all.
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Post by coloradocliff on Jun 19, 2017 11:03:05 GMT -5
Yes, hex are gentler. looks like you know what to do doublet. Cliff, I just use Borax in the vibe, 2 tablespoons/14 pounds. My vibe does bruise softer rocks. Thicker slurry separates from the main population of rocks(problem related to my type vibe). So I don't try slurry thickeners w/vibe at all. Think the separation problem would be the same in lot o's as your industrial sized one?
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Jun 19, 2017 17:11:35 GMT -5
Yes, hex are gentler. looks like you know what to do doublet. Cliff, I just use Borax in the vibe, 2 tablespoons/14 pounds. My vibe does bruise softer rocks. Thicker slurry separates from the main population of rocks(problem related to my type vibe). So I don't try slurry thickeners w/vibe at all. Think the separation problem would be the same in lot o's as your industrial sized one? Not likely. A Vibrasonic is left to right, adjustable off-balance on left and one on right. Donut and oval hoppers have better mixing, nature of the shape. It is about impossible to adjust the counterweights exactly the same left to right. After 24 hours or so the big stuff splits to one side and the little to the other. It does it much worse if slurry is thick like this run. Dividers solved a lot of this problem.
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Post by coloradocliff on Jun 19, 2017 19:35:33 GMT -5
Think the separation problem would be the same in lot o's as your industrial sized one? Not likely. A Vibrasonic is left to right, adjustable off-balance on left and one on right. Donut and oval hoppers have better mixing, nature of the shape. It is about impossible to adjust the counterweights exactly the same left to right. After 24 hours or so the big stuff splits to one side and the little to the other. It does it much worse if slurry is thick like this run. Dividers solved a lot of this problem. Quite the separation of materials there Jim Great example. Will see what the lot O do . Bet you are right. The slurry seemed thicker and coats better than mine. Almost like you had more AO, borax or better mixing with that awesome flow.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Jun 19, 2017 20:31:07 GMT -5
Yes, hex are gentler. looks like you know what to do doublet. Cliff, I just use Borax in the vibe, 2 tablespoons/14 pounds. My vibe does bruise softer rocks. Thicker slurry separates from the main population of rocks(problem related to my type vibe). So I don't try slurry thickeners w/vibe at all. Think the separation problem would be the same in lot o's as your industrial sized one? Not an issue in the Lot O. Spent many hours staring in there. Amazing machine.
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Post by coloradocliff on Jun 19, 2017 20:50:06 GMT -5
Think the separation problem would be the same in lot o's as your industrial sized one? Not an issue in the Lot O. Spent many hours staring in there. Amazing machine. Amazing tumbles that your time paying attention turns out. Do you run any thickners in your lotos then? Kitty litter? Borax probably but it doesn't thicken like clay. Curious if you get a benefit from running K litter in a lotto other than prevent bruising on tender rocks.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 20, 2017 6:58:31 GMT -5
The 35 pound barrel is more like a Lot-O. Excellent mixing in it. The 14 pound is great for long rocks like petrified limbs.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Jun 20, 2017 7:52:19 GMT -5
Not an issue in the Lot O. Spent many hours staring in there. Amazing machine. Amazing tumbles that your time paying attention turns out. Do you run any thickners in your lotos then? Kitty litter? Borax probably but it doesn't thicken like clay. Curious if you get a benefit from running K litter in a lotto other than prevent bruising on tender rocks. No need for litter in the Lot O, Cliff. You should use mixed size ceramics to fill in those smaller spaces. Some people use up to half the volume in ceramics on delicate materials. At least a third is a good rule of thumb. This cushions the rocks and carries the grit into hard to reach places. A small amount of borax is used, some people measure, I'd guess I dump probably a tablespoon or two. This is enough thickener to carry the small size grit you are using in the Lot O. The action is pretty gentle, obsidian is no problem with the ceramic mix as cushion. Stick with that recipe ChicagoDave gave and things will be peachy.
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Post by coloradocliff on Jun 20, 2017 9:19:05 GMT -5
Amazing tumbles that your time paying attention turns out. Do you run any thickners in your lotos then? Kitty litter? Borax probably but it doesn't thicken like clay. Curious if you get a benefit from running K litter in a lotto other than prevent bruising on tender rocks. No need for litter in the Lot O, Cliff. You should use mixed size ceramics to fill in those smaller spaces. Some people use up to half the volume in ceramics on delicate materials. At least a third is a good rule of thumb. This cushions the rocks and carries the grit into hard to reach places. A small amount of borax is used, some people measure, I'd guess I dump probably a tablespoon or two. This is enough thickener to carry the small size grit you are using in the Lot O. The action is pretty gentle, obsidian is no problem with the ceramic mix as cushion. Stick with that recipe ChicagoDave gave and things will be peachy. I really appreciate such great advice from a master in the art. Your stuff is perfect. I do run lots of ceramic maybe could run more. Whats the best way to speed up the action in a lot o other than not getting it too wet? No problem in the 120-220 because of the friction but in the 500 to polish always seem barely moving. Thanks for the advice on the obsidian. Ben playing around with that in my spare time. Hope yall have a good morning going out there. Suns shining and blue sky in the mountain valleys of Colorado. Headed for the VA hospital this morning. Have a shread of modest left and they want to abuse even that. Heheh Routine.. Strong as an ox and all mostas smart. Yep figure that yours and Dave recipes are pretty close to perfect.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Jun 20, 2017 10:53:01 GMT -5
No need for litter in the Lot O, Cliff. You should use mixed size ceramics to fill in those smaller spaces. Some people use up to half the volume in ceramics on delicate materials. At least a third is a good rule of thumb. This cushions the rocks and carries the grit into hard to reach places. A small amount of borax is used, some people measure, I'd guess I dump probably a tablespoon or two. This is enough thickener to carry the small size grit you are using in the Lot O. The action is pretty gentle, obsidian is no problem with the ceramic mix as cushion. Stick with that recipe ChicagoDave gave and things will be peachy. I really appreciate such great advice from a master in the art. Your stuff is perfect. I do run lots of ceramic maybe could run more. Whats the best way to speed up the action in a lot o other than not getting it too wet? No problem in the 120-220 because of the friction but in the 500 to polish always seem barely moving. Thanks for the advice on the obsidian. Ben playing around with that in my spare time. Hope yall have a good morning going out there. Suns shining and blue sky in the mountain valleys of Colorado. Headed for the VA hospital this morning. Have a shread of modest left and they want to abuse even that. Heheh Routine.. Strong as an ox and all mostas smart. Yep figure that yours and Dave recipes are pretty close to perfect.
Cliff, that Lot O can make a master out of anyone. It will put a shine on most anything, the trick to the wow factor is feeding it the best material you can get your hands on. That and a patient course grind. If I read that you like the more natural, less rounded shapes, that's cool, just make sure to brush out any crevices or vugs between stages and don't let them dry out. A good burnish after the polish and you should get some nice shiny rocks.
Other than the moisture level and maybe the amount of material in the bowl, I don't know of any way to speed up or slow down the Lot O (without mechanical alterations). When water stands in the bottom, it will definitely slow down. When too dry, it gums up and slows down also. Got to hit that sweet spot for best action. Good news is, there is a fair amount of leeway. Think 'spray bottle' adjustments to moisture, nothing drastic. Better to be a little wet than a little dry though.
Good luck at the VA and enjoy that mountain air. We have sunshine and hot here in the Bluegrass.
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Post by coloradocliff on Jun 20, 2017 14:05:50 GMT -5
I really appreciate such great advice from a master in the art. Your stuff is perfect. I do run lots of ceramic maybe could run more. Whats the best way to speed up the action in a lot o other than not getting it too wet? No problem in the 120-220 because of the friction but in the 500 to polish always seem barely moving. Thanks for the advice on the obsidian. Ben playing around with that in my spare time. Hope yall have a good morning going out there. Suns shining and blue sky in the mountain valleys of Colorado. Headed for the VA hospital this morning. Have a shread of modest left and they want to abuse even that. Heheh Routine.. Strong as an ox and all mostas smart. Yep figure that yours and Dave recipes are pretty close to perfect.
Cliff, that Lot O can make a master out of anyone. It will put a shine on most anything, the trick to the wow factor is feeding it the best material you can get your hands on. That and a patient course grind. If I read that you like the more natural, less rounded shapes, that's cool, just make sure to brush out any crevices or vugs between stages and don't let them dry out. A good burnish after the polish and you should get some nice shiny rocks.
Other than the moisture level and maybe the amount of material in the bowl, I don't know of any way to speed up or slow down the Lot O (without mechanical alterations). When water stands in the bottom, it will definitely slow down. When too dry, it gums up and slows down also. Got to hit that sweet spot for best action. Good news is, there is a fair amount of leeway. Think 'spray bottle' adjustments to moisture, nothing drastic. Better to be a little wet than a little dry though.
Good luck at the VA and enjoy that mountain air. We have sunshine and hot here in the Bluegrass.
Yep That's what I'm doing. Great tumble material. Spare no horses. I am paying attention to the moisture and work for that sweet spot with the spray bottle. Since I been doing the borax in every grit the shie is much better and quicker. If I over do the moisture I turn the barrel upside down and let the excess run out between my fingers and add a bit more polish or grit, The lot os do a lot faster action during the 120-220 but after they start getting slicker rocks, the speed drops off. Appreciate your advice and also your pictures as something to improve on. Cliff
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Jun 21, 2017 9:30:17 GMT -5
I'm wondering if this is the same thing I have noticed recently. Only see it in clear parts of agate. Small crescent-shaped fractures for lack of a better word. Often only visible from one aspect. I have examined these with a 10 power loupe. They don't seem to be on the surface. I too thought they were from tumbling larger rocks in a high-speed Tumblr. But I check some of my older tumbles and still found these. Really don't know what they are.
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notjustone
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2017
Posts: 426
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Post by notjustone on Jun 21, 2017 11:19:55 GMT -5
I'm wondering if this is the same thing I have noticed recently. Only see it in clear parts of agate. Small crescent-shaped fractures for lack of a better word. Often only visible from one aspect. I have examined these with a 10 power loupe. They don't seem to be on the surface. I too thought they were from tumbling larger rocks in a high-speed Tumblr. But I check some of my older tumbles and still found these. Really don't know what they are. if your only seeing them in the clear parts could it be the material has little to no mineralization and they are tiny conchoidial fractures?
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jun 21, 2017 17:33:05 GMT -5
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Jun 22, 2017 9:07:37 GMT -5
I'm wondering if this is the same thing I have noticed recently. Only see it in clear parts of agate. Small crescent-shaped fractures for lack of a better word. Often only visible from one aspect. I have examined these with a 10 power loupe. They don't seem to be on the surface. I too thought they were from tumbling larger rocks in a high-speed Tumblr. But I check some of my older tumbles and still found these. Really don't know what they are. if your only seeing them in the clear parts could it be the material has little to no mineralization and they are tiny conchoidial fractures? My description may be a little off. I should have said translucent rather than clear. They are small seemingly random crescent shaped marks which remind of fibers. Can only be seen easily when the rock is back lit. And then only at certain angles. When examined under magnification they appear to go relatively deep into the rock. I have not found any at the surface which appear to be open or that resemble larger fractures I've seen. I have found this in rough that wasn't tumbled. Much harder to see past the unfinished surface. Not discounting that they may be conchoidal fractures, I really don't know.
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