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Post by vegasjames on Jan 6, 2018 3:01:18 GMT -5
My take is if he's making a living off of doing it, it's a business, not casual rock hounding/hobby. Does he pay taxes on the sales he makes? If he doesn't, then it's illegal. is he stealing? Maybe, from the people of the state. Is it illegal? Maybe. Do I care? No. My question is why hasn't he filed claims on these deposits? Then he can take as much as he wants and it's legal. I talked to the local BLM about this exact thing about a year ago. According to the BLM worker I talked to, and I clarified this by asking twice, he said that no claim is required to mine. The mining claim merely gives you exclusive rights like a patent on an idea. You do no need a patent to manufacture and sell the product. That only gives you exclusive rights. So according to Jim at the BLM I can do all the mining I want without a mining claim. Note that rock hounding and mining are considered two different things and different rule apply.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,456
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 6, 2018 8:24:38 GMT -5
Wow, story sure does differ depending on which BLM officer you talk to. Guy in Mariposa was all about posting restoration bonds for even a small dig and definitely separated hobby mining/rockhounding from regular mining. The former limiting you to only small amounts of rock for personal use and the latter, taking for sale, requiring a claim and bond. However, the question I had was how do you prospect for a claim and see if the material is salable if you cannot do at least some mining without bond. That seemed to be sort of a don't ask don't tell situation as long a no heavy mechanized equipment was involved....Mel
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Post by 1dave on Jan 6, 2018 9:33:52 GMT -5
With thousands of pages of rules, no one really knows, so it boils down to opinions, and like . . .
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,456
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 6, 2018 10:13:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I've heard similar stories re the rangers on the Mojave out around Lavic regarding jasper hunks that have bee worked by Amerinds. And a lot of the nicer pieces there are often cores, spalls and such left over from Amerind knapping. Each officer seems to try to make up their own set of rules. Some rangers seem to want to prosecute everyone for picking up anything worked yet on at least a couple of occasions in California and Oregon, I've had rangers advise me on where to go look for arrowheads or petrified wood. Just depends om the guy you get I guess....Mel
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 15:09:21 GMT -5
My take is if he's making a living off of doing it, it's a business, not casual rock hounding/hobby. Does he pay taxes on the sales he makes? If he doesn't, then it's illegal. is he stealing? Maybe, from the people of the state. Is it illegal? Maybe. Do I care? No. My question is why hasn't he filed claims on these deposits? Then he can take as much as he wants and it's legal. I talked to the local BLM about this exact thing about a year ago. According to the BLM worker I talked to, and I clarified this by asking twice, he said that no claim is required to mine. The mining claim merely gives you exclusive rights like a patent on an idea. You do no need a patent to manufacture and sell the product. That only gives you exclusive rights. So according to Jim at the BLM I can do all the mining I want without a mining claim. Note that rock hounding and mining are considered two different things and different rule apply. I love that. How stupid is it to have two definitions for one activity? Use the one that benefits the most! Back in the 80's hunting snakes required a license and hunting invertebrates in the same places at the same times of year did not. So, i hunted scorpions and tarantulas.
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 6, 2018 15:28:43 GMT -5
Wow, story sure does differ depending on which BLM officer you talk to. Guy in Mariposa was all about posting restoration bonds for even a small dig and definitely separated hobby mining/rockhounding from regular mining. The former limiting you to only small amounts of rock for personal use and the latter, taking for sale, requiring a claim and bond. However, the question I had was how do you prospect for a claim and see if the material is salable if you cannot do at least some mining without bond. That seemed to be sort of a don't ask don't tell situation as long a no heavy mechanized equipment was involved....Mel From what we were told the bonds are only associated with a claim and are only required on any mining operation above casual mining. In other words using power equipment to dig. There are also additional bonds if you are putting a road in to the mine.
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 6, 2018 15:34:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I've heard similar stories re the rangers on the Mojave out around Lavic regarding jasper hunks that have bee worked by Amerinds. And a lot of the nicer pieces there are often cores, spalls and such left over from Amerind knapping. Each officer seems to try to make up their own set of rules. Some rangers seem to want to prosecute everyone for picking up anything worked yet on at least a couple of occasions in California and Oregon, I've had rangers advise me on where to go look for arrowheads or petrified wood. Just depends om the guy you get I guess....Mel The laws keep changing all the time as well. Arrowheads have been off limit for a long time. And now you cannot even pick up a bottle over 50 years old. Any artifacts over 50 years old are now considered to be under the Antiquities Act, which was originally abused to cover any abandoned shipwrecks off of what is considered coastal territorial waters, which has also been expanded from a few hundred yards to hundreds of miles off shore. Part of this I think has to do with the discovery of the Brother Johnathan wreck. DSR found the wreck, which should have been in international waters. The government sued DSR and tried to claim the wreck but DSR won and kept the fortune in gold last I heard.
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Post by broseph82 on Jan 8, 2018 13:09:52 GMT -5
Makes sense and I can understand that. I would be honked off if I had a claim and some jerk cleaned it out on me. The Oregon K-Scope owners have had lots of issues with people coming in the night and loading up thousands of dollars worth of rough. Luckily they caught a woman and a couple of her accomplices last year.
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Post by Lapidaryrough / Jack Cole on Jan 8, 2018 13:25:50 GMT -5
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Post by Lapidaryrough / Jack Cole on Jan 8, 2018 13:33:06 GMT -5
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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 8, 2018 23:29:06 GMT -5
Makes sense and I can understand that. I would be honked off if I had a claim and some jerk cleaned it out on me. The Oregon K-Scope owners have had lots of issues with people coming in the night and loading up thousands of dollars worth of rough. Luckily they caught a woman and a couple of her accomplices last year. From my understanding the Rhodes have been collecting it from private property without owner permission. They are not well received in the NW rockhound community. This could be more geological folklore but some trusted people have told me this.
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Post by broseph82 on Jan 9, 2018 16:07:56 GMT -5
The Oregon K-Scope owners have had lots of issues with people coming in the night and loading up thousands of dollars worth of rough. Luckily they caught a woman and a couple of her accomplices last year. From my understanding the Rhodes have been collecting it from private property without owner permission. They are not well received in the NW rockhound community. This could be more geological folklore but some trusted people have told me this. And then there's the twist. I did not know that! I did notice a decrease in activity with them selling the K-Scope tho. Now they sell a bunch off Moroccan Apple Valley Agate mostly
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 18:19:18 GMT -5
Call them what you like. People choose different careers and many of them make it possible for the rest of us to sample stuff we would never see other wise. Those rules make it so nobody can legally bring home a boulder over 250#. Petwood law used to say 250 plus one piece allowing for the occasional giant hunk. That should extend to all rockhounding.
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Fritz
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since May 2016
Posts: 77
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Post by Fritz on Jan 18, 2018 21:52:25 GMT -5
I would say no it's not casual rockhounding but that's obvious. Rockhounds usually don't clean out a site for personal profit. Spots on public land that haven't been looted by those with commercial interests are getting harder and harder to come by. I'm not saying one group has more rights than the other but that's the state of things. Lots of clubs stake claims for that reason.
But if the person for real did their own prospecting and the sites are for real not known about by others (rockhounds/clubs/hobbyists/casual collectors/etc) then it's probably not a big deal. Legality wise well either way the BLM doesn't have the resources to go after all the people that flaunt the law. Go to any rock show and most of the people are selling stuff from well known sites that they don't have the rights to. It's deeply rooted in the culture. I for one am very grateful we have vast public lands (at least here out west) because self collecting and hiking is my favorite part of the hobby even though of course I buy lots of goodies from commercial outfits as well, especially stuff that requires heavy equipment or real mining to get out.
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