NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Feb 12, 2019 11:09:10 GMT -5
Good day!
I am very interested in, and have been reading a lot about shortening the number of Stages that the Vibratory tumbler goes through.
My question is to those who have very recently posted, who have cut their number of Vibe Stages down from say (4 or 5), to just 2. With maybe a final polish Stage if necessary.
I am not looking for a 1 size fits all solution or practice here, or all the answers, but maybe just some random observations made by the experienced.
Having just bought a new Vibe, and a bunch of different grits, I realize that in 6 months or so, I might figure some of this out on my own. But I have no experience to compare it to.
Q) Basically, how is the short cut methods going for you? Are you seeing the same results or better than your 4/5 Stages of Vibratory tumbling?
---------- Warning: Below I just basically share my own experience so far.
Taking "more finished" rocks (of 7 hardness) from the Rotary, after continuous weekly cycles of SiC 46/70.
Going with AO 80 for the first Stage Vibratory tumble.
Using probably 25% mixed ceramic (3/16 x 3/8 mixed with 3/8 x 5/8) and no friction modifier (Borax, etc).
I am not sure I am seeing the grit is sticking enough to the rocks enough? I've never looked inside a tumbler before. I guess I am wondering if I went too course my first time out, starting with AO 80? I thought AO would stick different than SiC? I bought enough AO 80 to probably last me 2 years, hehe. Oops.
I think I need to be using less water maybe? Perhaps adding Borax will help to make more of a grit soup? Or more ceramic media could be helpful? ----------
I guess this post is mostly just me trying to find out the answers before doing the hard work and experimenting. I think I could be more patient.
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Post by HankRocks on Feb 12, 2019 11:36:29 GMT -5
Less water, and a slurry thickner to start. You wil have to watch how much thickner(cat litter? or whatever) you add so as not to getting too thick. Add maybe a tablespoon and wait a minute or two to see how it looks, then add more a bit at a time.
For future, I would recommend getting a rotary tumbler for coarse, an maybe the next stage. It grinds a lot faster than a vibratory tumbler.
Henry
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unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
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Post by unclesoska on Feb 12, 2019 11:53:14 GMT -5
80 Grit in a vibe is the worst thing you can do, as your bowl will be ruined in a VERY short time. In addition, the deep gouges the 80 grit has made in your bowl will now make hiding places for finer grits and grundge. It's recommended by many not to vibe any coarser than 220 grit. Save that 80 grit for a rotary. What brand tumbler do you have?
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Feb 12, 2019 14:16:20 GMT -5
I'll assume you are referring to bowl vibe applications.......
It's not advised to use grits any lower than 120 in bowl vibes.......although some have with success. That said, bowl wear and lack of any dynamic grinding action are the reasons it is not recommended. The rough grits will embed themselves into the bowl and over time (quickly) damage the bowl surface, while not making much of a "dent" in the shaping or smoothing out the stone surfaces.
As for saving time by reducing the number of steps (cycles) with a bowl vibe, first of all, just using that vibe to perform medium to fine grinding saves time and medium consumption (compared to rotary). For polishing steps, vibes are very fast if the previous grind stages were completed properly.
I'm not one who can patiently wait through +4week rotary cycles once I've spent that much time roughing out (60/90) cycles in the rollers. So I vibe everything after rotary rough. The key to success with the vibe is to spend what ever amount of time it takes shaping and refining the rough aspects, much of that will be a personal preference........ I also preform much of my rough by hand on diamond disc's and then run through vibe cycles as needed. The other IMPORTANT aspect with bowl vibes is developing a good slurry in every stage of the application.........most important.......this takes time and experimentation to learn and you may find that no two batches (same stone types) will slurry up in the same manner or amount of time every time.........I also only use ceramics as filler in every stage.
Reducing vibe stages......: Really depends on how much success one has had with the rough stages and what one expects the end product (polished) results to be. Stone type and quality are also factors to be considered with vibe applications. I've only recently discovered with common Agates & Jaspers of 7mohs, that most will polish up to an "ice cube" shine with just 4 vibe stages.......120/220sic, 500AO, +800AO pre-pre-polish and finally with a good AO or Cerium Oxide polishing media. Each stage ran for approx. 18 to 24hrs minimum.........that's of course being rough prepared properly.
Everyone I have followed here at RTH has a little different story or approach to vibing........but a few things we all have in common is learning how to develop a good slurry, making sure the bowl is at least 3/4 full of stone and media, spending time checking on the process during the first 2 to 4 hours, and keeping the slurry consistent through the entire cycle application.......out side of that, it all becomes personal preference.
Hope this helps a little........short cuts are difficult to establish without having first experienced the growing "pains" we all have had learning the proper basic methods prior to advanced bowl vibe applications.
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lancemountain
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 214
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Post by lancemountain on Feb 12, 2019 22:04:41 GMT -5
Henry- you add cat litter to a vibe stage?
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Post by Garage Rocker on Feb 12, 2019 22:20:35 GMT -5
No one I know of adds cat litter to a vibe tumbler. This advice should never be floated out there.
That said, and in reference to the original post, I now use a two-step process in the vibe tumbler (Lot-O). My preference is for (close as possible to) flawless rocks going into the vibe from coarse grind, then AO 220 for 4-5 days, then polish for 1.5-2 days. I have developed a feel for it though, after a few years practice, and results may vary. Ceramics at 25-30%.
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lancemountain
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 214
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Post by lancemountain on Feb 12, 2019 22:23:07 GMT -5
I wouldn’t have thought so either but it reads like that
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Feb 14, 2019 12:24:18 GMT -5
Less water, and a slurry thickner to start. You wil have to watch how much thickner(cat litter? or whatever) you add so as not to getting too thick. Add maybe a tablespoon and wait a minute or two to see how it looks, then add more a bit at a time. For future, I would recommend getting a rotary tumbler for coarse, an maybe the next stage. It grinds a lot faster than a vibratory tumbler. Henry Henry ~ Thanks. I think this is exactly the problem. FYI, the Rotary handles the 46/70 part. But yes, I didn't read enough, and just kind of assumed that I could dump a long of water in the Vibe tumbler with the 80 Grit, and it would take care of itself. I've emptied out the tumbler, and next time I go with it, I'll start thicker, and add a TBLS of water slowly, until it the rocks start to move more. Or something.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Feb 14, 2019 12:26:48 GMT -5
80 Grit in a vibe is the worst thing you can do, as your bowl will be ruined in a VERY short time. In addition, the deep gouges the 80 grit has made in your bowl will now make hiding places for finer grits and grundge. It's recommended by many not to vibe any coarser than 220 grit. Save that 80 grit for a rotary. What brand tumbler do you have? Got it. I'll save the 80 grit for the Rotary, and start with a 220 in the Vibe. I essentially have the Diamond Pacific MT-4. Thank you for your help.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Feb 14, 2019 13:01:39 GMT -5
I'll assume you are referring to bowl vibe applications.......
It's not advised to use grits any lower than 120 in bowl vibes.......although some have with success. That said, bowl wear and lack of any dynamic grinding action are the reasons it is not recommended. The rough grits will embed themselves into the bowl and over time (quickly) damage the bowl surface, while not making much of a "dent" in the shaping or smoothing out the stone surfaces.
As for saving time by reducing the number of steps (cycles) with a bowl vibe, first of all, just using that vibe to perform medium to fine grinding saves time and medium consumption (compared to rotary). For polishing steps, vibes are very fast if the previous grind stages were completed properly.
I'm not one who can patiently wait through +4week rotary cycles once I've spent that much time roughing out (60/90) cycles in the rollers. So I vibe everything after rotary rough. The key to success with the vibe is to spend what ever amount of time it takes shaping and refining the rough aspects, much of that will be a personal preference........ I also preform much of my rough by hand on diamond disc's and then run through vibe cycles as needed. The other IMPORTANT aspect with bowl vibes is developing a good slurry in every stage of the application.........most important.......this takes time and experimentation to learn and you may find that no two batches (same stone types) will slurry up in the same manner or amount of time every time.........I also only use ceramics as filler in every stage.
Reducing vibe stages......: Really depends on how much success one has had with the rough stages and what one expects the end product (polished) results to be. Stone type and quality are also factors to be considered with vibe applications. I've only recently discovered with common Agates & Jaspers of 7mohs, that most will polish up to an "ice cube" shine with just 4 vibe stages.......120/220sic, 500AO, +800AO pre-pre-polish and finally with a good AO or Cerium Oxide polishing media. Each stage ran for approx. 18 to 24hrs minimum.........that's of course being rough prepared properly.
Everyone I have followed here at RTH has a little different story or approach to vibing........but a few things we all have in common is learning how to develop a good slurry, making sure the bowl is at least 3/4 full of stone and media, spending time checking on the process during the first 2 to 4 hours, and keeping the slurry consistent through the entire cycle application.......out side of that, it all becomes personal preference.
Hope this helps a little........short cuts are difficult to establish without having first experienced the growing "pains" we all have had learning the proper basic methods prior to advanced bowl vibe applications.
Pizzano, Thank you for taking the time to give so much advice here. Yes, it is a bowl Vibe like the Lot-O. Some advanced members here have gone with courser grits in the Vibe successfully, I just assumed that I could use advanced methods even though I've never done it before, mostly because I am impatient. Pretty naive really. I've made some mistakes purchasing the wrong grits it appears as well. Oh well, time to order different ones now. I haven't pre-formed rough, but I am looking to do it. I've been researching wet tile saws to use as a trim saw. I recently tried using diamond grinding bits and wheels on a dremel tool, but that is not getting the job done. I need a real 6 or 7 inch saw. I don't own one yet. But see it as fairly necessary. I'll use it later on to help pre-form cabs once I get lapidary equipment. I just don't feel like spending more than 250.00 at this time. Yes, I have to read more and watch more videos that explain how to add grit and water to the bowl Vibe. I think I found a good tutorial on this matter. I have to practice it. After some time and experimenting, I need to get a feel for what a good slurry is, for each different Vibe stage. Hopefully the AO 80 hasn't ruined the bowl already, making it impossible to use again. If so, I'll throw it out and buy another. I had planned on using just one different bowl for each one grit. So, for example 1 bowl for the SiC 120/220 grit, 1 bowl for the AO 500 grit, 1 bowl for Polish. I appreciate your advice. Thank you.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Feb 14, 2019 13:45:46 GMT -5
Bill, you're welcome..........A couple of things though.........A Lot-O and or a Pacific MT-4 are not "bowl" vibes, they are "hopper" type vibes.
Bowl vibes are like the Raytech TV-5 or the Thumler's Ultra Vibe 10......an actual bowl mounted tumbling device..........therefore, what I had suggested previously really only applies to BOWL VIBES...........although slurry development is still a very critical aspect of the application, 'hopper" type vibes are much more dynamic and achieve grinding and polishing aspects at a very different rate of speed (cycle time) and quality.........!
Glad I could help a little.......be patient and gain experience. The vibe(s) you own will produce great results.
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unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
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Post by unclesoska on Feb 14, 2019 13:56:07 GMT -5
80 Grit in a vibe is the worst thing you can do, as your bowl will be ruined in a VERY short time. In addition, the deep gouges the 80 grit has made in your bowl will now make hiding places for finer grits and grundge. It's recommended by many not to vibe any coarser than 220 grit. Save that 80 grit for a rotary. What brand tumbler do you have? Got it. I'll save the 80 grit for the Rotary, and start with a 220 in the Vibe. I essentially have the Diamond Pacific MT-4. Thank you for your help. Just in case it came w/o instructions, try this: www.hayneedle.com/images/pdf/DPT043.pdf
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Feb 14, 2019 16:09:58 GMT -5
Pizzano ~ It seems I know even less about my tumbler than I thought! Thank you for the quick summary.
Unclesoska ~ Thanks for the link! My unit was used, and didn't come with instructions. And, even though I had downloaded that exact document from the Diamond Pacific website a week or two ago, for some reason I decided to use someone else's tumbling advice instead! Now that I read the DP instructions I see that I was doing it all wrong.
I feel like a big dummy for making my post. But I did get some great advice from it!
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