rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
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Post by rockhoundoz on Feb 13, 2021 16:46:21 GMT -5
Hello all, Sorry I didn't see this earlier, I have been moving and with all the rocks I have it kicked my butt! As an archaeologist with a specialization in stone tools, I have seen many artifacts over the past 30 years and I have also seen a lot of geofacts. In fact, I have a talk I give that addresses both. The technology that was used to manufacture chipped stone tools (arrowheads) and ground stone (axes, bannerstones, gorgets) leave distinctive traces on the artifact. Flaked stone will have scars on the surface from the removal of chips and ground stone will be marked with pits from pecking and some areas may show smoothing from it being ground to shape. Nature is a powerful force that can shape stones too. A geofact is a stone that has been modified by weathering and erosion. Often a stone that has different types of minerals in it will have different layers or spots that wear away at different rates due to hardness differences. Think about a dense limestone with a soft fossil in it... the soft fossil will wear away faster than the surrounding matrix to the point that it may leave a hole in the stone. The opposite is also true; a hard chert nodule in limestone will resit weathering and the limestone erodes away leaving (sometimes) a oddly shaped nodule of chert. It's always challenging to tell from a picture... I don't think the sandstone or the chert nodule you posted are artifacts. It gets tricky when stones like these are found at an archaeological site; people have always collected rocks and they may have picked up the sandstone thinking they'd make something. It gets left at a site with other artifacts and if the site is excavated properly we can discern if it was intentionally brought to the site based on where it was found in relation to other diagnostic artifacts. If that's the case, it would be classified as a manuport and considered an artifact since it was carried to the site for some purpose. Hope this helps! Michael Thanks for your professional analysis & info, Michael mjflinty! It's likely that I will still take at least the round sandstone piece to the University, just to have the finality of an 'in person' look, although I do feel confident in your assessment. On another note, after you were 'tagged in' to this convo., I took a look at a couple of your older threads out of curiosity for other artifact related stuff, & was able to probably ID an agate you posted in the identification thread "groove wrapped agate", as a "Mississippi river zone" agate. I've collected a large amount of similar agates from river gravels in both Missouri & Mississippi, & have cut several nearly identical agates from both places, especially Missouri.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Feb 4, 2021 17:45:19 GMT -5
Amazing bike! Somehow always feel safer on a 2-wheel ride rather than 4-wheel-ATV on mountainous terrain, reckon less steel to fall on me.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Feb 3, 2021 19:58:49 GMT -5
Amazing rocks in here ðĪĐ. Some Kentucky orbs: & an Arkansas wavellite : Edited to switch to this better orb which I 'accidentally opened' while moving the rock around, heh
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Feb 3, 2021 19:31:06 GMT -5
No matter what material ear spools were made from, 2 inches or more of rock in my ear would be too much. One would have to be a bad-ass to do that. I noticed many of them were flat on one side and concave or convex on the other. So true, but then I suspect us humans have generally been slowly declining on the badass scale for some time now . I've heard mixed reviews about the painfulness of modern day ear gauging, but surely at 2inches it doesn't feel like a dip in the hot tub ð
. They probably had smoothed the 'rim' where it touches the skin pretty good too, minimizing the effect of differing stones further & I guess sandstone would just about be the lightest option out of the options discussed here, & limestone close 2nd. Bone & wood would harbor more microbes. The tribes had significantly more advanced knowledge on pathogens than the Europeans at time of 1st contact. As a side note, was wondering all along why we don't call them 'ear plugs', until I put that into google ðĪĢ <- tunnel vision/sometimes very dense, lol.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Feb 3, 2021 13:04:37 GMT -5
Great examples, thanks rickb! I definitely have not ruled out this ð, or any of the possibilities discussed in the thread. The spiro mound example looks like maybe pottery? Beautiful shape. I found many examples online, in both sandstone & limestone, which look similar. Having trouble getting concise links, but a few screen-capture images: Further, just FWIW, the concave side on the disc, when I hold the thing up behind my ear, that concavity naturally rests right on the mastoid process (bony lump behind the ear), so that it rests comfortably & flush. Also, very cool on the ground flint example from Indiana!! That is from a county on the Kentucky border- so it would suggest that flint/chert grinding was indeed happening in this region . Actually, the finish/skin/rind on that ear spool is very similar to the finish on the second, chert mystery item I posted ð.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Feb 2, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -5
Just another possibility re the chert piece. It could be natural. Here on the ranch we get a lot of really strange and often symmetrical chert nodules that formed in mollusc burrows or eroded water channels and then weathered from the native Edwards limestone. I can't find any tool that looks like than in all my books. I guess it might just remain a mystery. Certainly a possibility. In fact, I assumed it was an unusual natural nodule at first, and then only over the couple years since, started to wonder if it was a tool. Hadn't considered mollusc burrow cast but can imagine that being true with this shape. After 30 years collecting chert & other silicates in Kentucky, just have never seen anything similar at all- but it could be a rare example. Even if it is an odd natural cast, still could have been picked up & used in some way as a tool. In that larger crescent shape on the concave side- it seems to show an anomalous wear pattern/smoothness/even varnishing which looks like it was extensively rubbed there. Don't really see that kind of smooth rind in this type of chert. A more clear pic of that: For another thing, I can't imagine if ancient people would have ground flint into a shape like that. It shows no sign at all of flaking/knapping. To be sure, we have softer & harder cherts, & we have very hard oolitic agate with surface like sandpaper, which is hard enough to grind the softer flints, but I'm not sure if that was done here in olden days. One of these days I'll suck it up & take the very small collection of mystery items into a local expert. If it turned out to not be artifact, I might sharpen the larger terminal end, because it would make an awesome small knife/ utility blade, but I wouldn't want to deface an artifact. Also no idea if there's any precedent on tribal use in this way, but could see how it would be an ideal massage tool to get into muscle/tendons/ligaments etc.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Feb 1, 2021 12:36:30 GMT -5
Looking at this list, they all look to apply, Iâll add them shortly. Awesome, thanks Stephan! Glad to see these once great eastern sites represented To second what rockjunquie had said, the unakite is still plentiful in Virginia, & in NC as well. Regarding Lucas Creek, I think the way you listed it is perfectly fine, although I will say that I'm sure no salmon have swam that creek for a century ð, but it is indeed the technicality that was used to close the public access. The last time I was there collecting, maybe 12/13 years ago, a couple of mean shovel-wielding locals had tried to pick a fight with me & our small law-abiding group. I'm about as friendly and mild-mannered as it gets, so there was no fighting (beyond a few *choice words *, lol), but it was enough to sour my taste for the site & I never returned anyhow. Sad to let those folks "win", but sometimes it's just not worth it. rockjunquie, thanks for the vote-of-confidence on Virginia knowledge ð, but I assure you that I'm a 'one-trick-pony' on your state & that was it, hehe. The Amelia mining district has captivated my interested since just a wee-lad, what an incredible array of mind-blowing specimens & mineral diversity! Of course, throughout the Piedmont from Connecticut to Georgia, if you dig deep enough in the many mineralized zones, you're just gonna find outrageous varied gemstones!
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 31, 2021 14:08:48 GMT -5
I'm in Virginia. I don't see anything my way. I live at the beach, but there aren't local sellers with local material, either. Virginia Amazonite, I think, was/is the prettiest.
Agreed, the Virginia amazonite is top notch, both in the green form & the sky-blue type which often looks very turquoise-esque. More unique & interesting patterns to the 'white parts' in VA stuff also- different from the more plain & predictable lines from other locations. My favorite VA amazonite is sky blue & has the black (manganese I guess?) inclusions along with the white. (Having trouble finding exact example of what I'm talking about, but here's a Morefield specimen from Wiki for a general idea) Bummer that VA mined pieces are not available in your area! I have seen a fair deal of Amelia area material for sale around Roanoke at various craft-type shows- although mostly as finished jewelry, scales on knives etc, the sellers know the rarity & value of the stuff. The east coast minerals that are more widely available are more of the Northeast state origins. Up at N.E. shows, there's usually at least one person selling a range of self-collected local stuff, old-stock & new. Also a good amount of NC specimens available around western NC. As usual, the Southeastern materials are typically harder to find. Alabama is one state that had extensive records of old valuable gemstones that I've long sought more information, with basically 0 success.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 31, 2021 10:32:33 GMT -5
Speaking of cave formations just reminded me of another - Kokoweef Cavern Cave Onyx. From a now closed location in the Mojave desert off of I-15. Cave popcorn - calcite and aragonite. Kokoweef Cave Onyx, also known as âcave popcornâ, is a stalactite found in the Kokoweef cavern in Southern California. It can be made into some very beautiful cabochons, either in classic shapes or natural, free-form shapes. Some links to info:Â Rock & Gem magazine - what to cut kokoweef cave onyxPolished This site also has some hints on cabbing hearts. This site has info about the Kokoweef Mine, treasure, the river of gold. www.in-the-desert.com/kokoweef.html
Ha ha! Beat you to it. I already listed it. It's one of my favs.
Cool material! & thanks for the pics, rockpickerforever . The talk about travertine/onyx reminds me that I guess in states like KY/WV where it's illegal to sell all cave formations from anywhere- lotta people would be unknowing criminals ð
. I mean, I doubt the state troopers are gonna raid Pier 1 or whatever & take their carved Mexican travertine bowls, but it's an interesting thing,heh. The kokoweef cave onyx reminds me of this stuff I stumbled upon on the side of some road in eastern oregon. Guess maybe it's cave popcorn too. Also, to Stephan (wish I knew how to tag, haha), since a lot of the sites I listed are vague and probably mostly unknown, here's the shorterned list of material that really deserves to make it Kentucky: *World class multi-colored fluorite specimens from the fluorospar district, closed & mined out, very difficult to access even low grade material from mine dumps anymore. Tennessee: *Paint rock agate, closed private & posted land Virginia: *Amelia Court House & Amelia County area, museum quality amethyst, amazonite, aquamarine & other beryl, tourmaline, turquoise crystals, & much more. Closed to all collectors starting in the 1990's.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 30, 2021 23:55:29 GMT -5
Last post was already too long, haha, forgot to add about cave formations aka speleothems. Kind of a strange or sticky subject... I believe the 1988 federal cave protection laws basically drastically reduced the collection & sale of such specimens, so this probably generally applies to the whole U.S. in various shades.
In KY & WV, both with extensive karst/ cave formations, it's illegal to sell speleothems, of any origin, within either state, & illegal to transport them into or out of the state at all. Technically still legal to collect cave formations- with express written permission from the landowner- from caves on private land, but as one can imagine, the good stuff is all gone from any cave you have any chance of getting permission. So in other words, anything that's good, & legal, is old-stock.
I remember well into the mid-1990's, folks were still lining the roadways around mammoth cave N.P. selling tables full of beautiful cave formations.
One interesting exception: I know of several crushed stone quarries in the karst regions of KY & WV who regularly & consistently blast into caves, harvest large amounts of speleothems along with the limestone, & sell the crushed stone products containing said specimens. I know of several locations where the state & federal land managers buy the crushed gravel from these quarries & use it in construction &/or landscaping on state & federal lands- lol.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 30, 2021 23:42:34 GMT -5
So, so many closed locations in the eastern states, more closed than open ð
, & a lot collected out as well. I think the specimens don't really make it out west, or even midwest, to where most users on this forum seem to live, but are still bought/sold/ traded as old stock back east.
Just a few here...
Connecticut: *southbury quarry for agate, amethyst etc. closed since 2000. It was well known to grant permission easily.
There were a bunch of places with great beryl crystals, think the ones I went to in late 90's are closed now... Cant remember names at the moment..
Kentucky: *Excellent fluorite specimens from the fluorospar district, basically closed & high graded, very difficult to access even low grade material from mine dumps anymore. I believe this is true for Illinois as well.
Maryland: *Various copper sites around Maryland, Howard, Carroll, Frederick counties. Vast msjority on private land, hard to get permission.
*Amber sites near Annapolis, private land, basically nobody giving permission anymore.
*Wire gold in quartz specimens & panning near Great Falls. Collecting was tolerated until recently.
*Smoky quartz & Amethyst around Howard, Montgomery counties, Owings Mills etc, all built over with shopping malls, housing developments, reservoirs, state land etc, all closed to collecting now.
Tennessee: *Paint rock agate, it's 99% on private land which is now all posted & basically no more permission being granted to any of those sites.
Virginia: *Amelia County area, through the 1990's & maybe later, possible to find permission &/or pay-sites for amethyst, amazonite, aquamarine & other beryl, tourmaline, the ultra rare, once upon a time turquoise crystals, & much more, now basically 100% closed to collectors.
*N.VA quarries with specimens of prehnite, copper & iron minerals etc, now closed or closed to all collecting, including Goose Creek, bull run & Centreville.
Washington: *Lucas creek agate, carnelian, pet. wood, closed about 10 years ago or so after some guy apparently posted video of himself digging ðąð, which was a salmon no-no.
Surprised nobody had put lucas creek yet.
West Virginia: *Smoke hole geodes. Think the site is still technically open, but it's completely collected out.
*petrified wood around South Charleston, under developments, on closed private land etc.
Those are places I've collected that come to mind. But truly, gotta be thousands of closed & depleted sites in the east & I'm sure I'll remember more. Collecting, fishing & land access in general has changed a lot in the east over my few decades, really became a completely different place & people less friendly & less prone to giving permission in general unless you already know one another.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 29, 2021 23:08:55 GMT -5
& I'm always leaving my old rocks here at home in search of those 350million year old 'spring chickens' ð
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 29, 2021 18:12:22 GMT -5
Here's a soft/limestone snail death plate from my yard in Kentucky. Ordovician rocks, not totally sure of ID maybe Hormotoma. Basically most of our native rock here is Ordovician death plates, but mostly bryozoans & brachiopods.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 29, 2021 17:51:30 GMT -5
Really like the size of each larger shell here, lets the patterns shine. Overall, the softer death-plate specimen you showed has more impact for me, but can see how this cherty stuff would be great for lapidary!
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 29, 2021 17:42:22 GMT -5
Yeah, I've never seen anything like that second one but what I find interesting about it is the perfect looking half circle in the concave side. I could almost make a wild guess that it was used to smooth a one inch round shaft but from the pic I cannot tell if the object has abrasive qualities. I have found pumice stones with perfect half circle channels that were plainly used to smooth or shape arrow shafts. It's a very smooth/ glassy chert. It very well could've been sharpened inside that crescent shaped divet on the concave side, for shaping shafts, but it's not an abrasive material (unlike the grooved-disc). Also just so perfectly fits in the hand, and either/both of those terminal tips/ends could've been sharpened. In fact they're basically beveled & close to forming an edge, as-is. I could imagine such a cutting tool easily (like an ancient box-cutter), used to cut vertical strips of bark, hide/leather etc. Couple pics to illustrate. It fits really nicely like this & has a very natural feeling. Again, if it were such a basic tool- would suspect someone had seen something like that before, but maybe this area just had very unique craftsmen/women.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 29, 2021 14:35:45 GMT -5
Did some research in my library and found pics of very similar grooved net weights. Only thing different is rather than the concave side, the pictured weights are drilled though. Others pictured though are just grooved and not drilled. Can't explain why the one side is concave. That has me stumped. Unless, since the stone seems fairly rough, it was used as some kind of sharpening of grinding tool or the concavity was used to grip the weight in the throwing process which does seem like over engineering. Perhaps secondary use for sharpening bone or wood implements like fish hooks or bone points of fish spears? Native Americans were very efficient at finding multiple uses for items they made. I do discount the idea it might be the upper part of a bow drill set because for that sort of thing,the concavity would be of very smooth stone as would most stones for ornamental use. Bola weights I've seen have usually been round. That's a good point about fish hook sharpening. Both bone hooks & gorges are known from this area. One of my first thoughts finding it, it could've been used as a terminal weight for line fishing- which a one-line rig, or trot line style would make sense for the swift water here at the stones 2oz mass. That would make extra sense re. hook sharpening too. Like you say though, it's odd that it wouldn't have a hole. The grooved fishing weights that I see, without holes, were clearly created 'fast & rough', as you would expect to lose some, with most all cordage becoming softer & stretching when wet. If I put the time into a piece like this for fishing, why not add a hole. That was the primary reason I ruled out fishing initially, but hey, they probably used some really good waterproof cordage material like dogbane & slippery elm bark. Overall, I'd say fishing related usage is pretty likely given the locale, although another thought is that fishing weights are usually pretty uniform & mass-produced, & I can'tfind anyone who's seen something like this before. Probably time to bring it down to the university. On another note, did you see the second artififact that I posted, sabre52? The one that has a trigger type shape. Any thoughts?
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 28, 2021 22:16:30 GMT -5
When I lived in California we would often find grooved stones like that around lakes and marshes. The consensus there was fish net or waterfowl throw net weights. They were usually made of common local rock rather than fancier materials like steatite or soapstone used for more ornamental purposes as they were often lost and had to be replaced. Thanks for that information! Waterfowl throwing net or bola would make a lot of sense. Considered some fishing purposes, seems overdesigned & small for a set-net sinker for the areas near here where I fish, but could also see something like that as inline weights in a castnet for fish. I had failed to consdider cast nets ð
. One thing though, with the seemingly carved, smoothed concave side, kinda seems over-engineering for a castnet? Guess it could help it fly (thinking frisbee, haha) as a bola. It does seem to fit & with a good thumb-purchase in the hand as some sort of handtool.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 28, 2021 11:15:45 GMT -5
Cool looking plate, the shells look very densely packed in ð.
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 27, 2021 23:23:02 GMT -5
Right there with ya on the dreams of bygone agate abundance, MikeT! Often think about the early days, maybe pre-1940's, pre-easy-roadtrip & rockhound craze days. We have a lot of places named for colorful rocks around here, like Paint Lick, & can only imagine how it would've looked full of giant agate boulders! I've seen a couple 20inch+ agates in other folk's collections- one with giant black & imperial red eyes covering the entire surface-uncut ðąðĪŠ. Fairburns are gorgeous, wonder how big they would've been available back then... & Maybe fossil-bone out that way too? Also wonder if some of those early European settlers from places with centuries of agate carving, like Germany & Scotland, were collecting/ working U.S. agates early on. Maybe not, since survival was rough & gemstones might've been more of a 'royal' thing. At least in KY, the tribes weren't really big on using our agate for tools since it's so heavily fractured & the chert so knaps so much easier. Here's a link to mindat - it shows pics and describes "The Custer Queen"...it's 53.5 pounds... www.mindat.org/gl/303633I cringe when I hear stories from old-timers who describe knowing people who have/had buckets of Fairburns tucked away in closets and under beds...that right I said BUCKETS!!! LOL Wowzers!! That 53lber is gorgeous!& guess that thing is probably only less than 1/2 of the original whole nodule? Fairburns & Kentucky's have so many visual similarities & I look at them as sedimentary cousins, even though I know there's some debate about fairburns not being completely sedimentary. Maybe one day you shall discover & inherit such a bucket ðĪ, may you be so lucky ð. agatemaggot: excellent idea, I like that one too. Are you thinking basically something like a rasp? Had you seen something like that before? Pat: great point! I have enough trouble with stabbing my plain ol' earlobes on random sharp branches, or ripping em with thorns etc in the woods just walking, heh. I wonder if the gentlemen with such elaborate & large ear-work were mostly all dignitaries & leaders, perhaps when stretched to such an extreme level, it's even an indication of being set aside from such grunt work as battle & hunting?
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rockhoundoz
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2017
Posts: 131
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Post by rockhoundoz on Jan 27, 2021 13:02:57 GMT -5
Hahaha, good point ðð. Absolutely, & I easily & happily drift into imagining being there amongst ancient times in these places. Fantasizing about the fish, game, wildlife which was there especially ð
ðĢ. That sounds fantastic on your Father-I.L's ranchland! South Dakota has so much great rock! I'm fascinated with the artifacts, too. However, I fantasize about how many Fairburns were laying around before people started picking them up!!! Right there with ya on the dreams of bygone agate abundance, MikeT! Often think about the early days, maybe pre-1940's, pre-easy-roadtrip & rockhound craze days. We have a lot of places named for colorful rocks around here, like Paint Lick, & can only imagine how it would've looked full of giant agate boulders! I've seen a couple 20inch+ agates in other folk's collections- one with giant black & imperial red eyes covering the entire surface-uncut ðąðĪŠ. Fairburns are gorgeous, wonder how big they would've been available back then... & Maybe fossil-bone out that way too? Also wonder if some of those early European settlers from places with centuries of agate carving, like Germany & Scotland, were collecting/ working U.S. agates early on. Maybe not, since survival was rough & gemstones might've been more of a 'royal' thing. At least in KY, the tribes weren't really big on using our agate for tools since it's so heavily fractured & the chert so knaps so much easier.
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